Why such little enthusiasm for Hilary Clinton?

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That I'll vote for Elizabeth Warren if/when she runs at some point. I'm not going to vote for Hillary just because she's a woman and it'd be historic. I have more respect for the process than that.

Who is asking you to?

She is more qualified than anyone else running. Her gender has nothing to do with it.
 

HylianTom

Banned
I...
I'm going to steal something from Poligaf here. Is there some alternate universe that GAF connects to that we get to see posts from? In what world is she right wing? She's been fighting for progressive causes for decades, was the 11th most liberal senator for her tenure (to the left of Obama I might add), and the original way the republicans tried to characterize her was as some far left lunatic. It's like people aren't even looking at her record, just the Hillary they've built up in their heads from I don't even know what sources. Is she the perfect ideal leftist? No, but she has a solid track record and is the best choice in the current climate. She's the steady as we go choice that will make it so that when I get my ideal choice twenty years down the line they wont be facing an overwhelmingly conservative supreme court that's going to shoot down all their initiatives and insure we don't see any progress for a generation.

That's one point of contention that the "I-want-Sanders-or-I'll-take-my-ball-home" crowd has never been able to respond to.

Say Hillary loses and Trump or Cruz or Rubio wins. Ginsburg departs, and we get an Alito-type in her place. The court is now 6-3, conservative.

2020 comes, and we do succeed in electing a Bernie-type of candidate, along with a fresh left-leaning Congress.

From there, anything remotely controversial that gets passed into law gets challenged. With the high court sitting at 6-3, we know how most of these challenges end. Bernie's vision is DOA. And it isn't for four or eight years - the typical Supreme Court justice is now serving more than 25 years.

---

I get voting for your preference in the primary. I will not begrudge a person for that one bit. But folks claiming to be passionate about Bernie's causes expressing a willingness to sentence his movement to death by judiciary if they don't get what they want in this one cycle? That makes zero sense, and I have to question just how devoted they are to his causes.
 
Voting for Hilary is like eating your vegetables.

So...good for you?

I dislike Hillary because she is a corporate shill and is one of the driving forces between extremely egregious incarceration toughness. There are so many shady dealings with her fingerprints all over them that I feel utter disgust at people actively rallying around her like she is some saintly moral person. America continues to get what it deserves when it chooses between Trump/Cruz/Rubio and Clinton.

How is that possible without being in office?
 

stufte

Member
Who is asking you to?

She is more qualified than anyone else running. Her gender has nothing to do with it.

No one is asking me to, I was talking about:

Can we step back for a minute and realize that the 'inevitable' Democratic nominee and frontrunner for the Presidency is a woman? You know, something that has never come close to happening?

Maybe it is because Obama broke the mold in being a minority that was elected but women are actually a majority in this nation but have only been able to vote for less than a hundred years and have never seen a woman at the top of a presidential ticket. This would be historical on the same level as Obama.

I have enthusiasm for Hillary because I want a woman to be elected President and I largely support her platform.


(And I can't help but read a lot of attacks on her as at least subconsciously sexist, much like so much vitriol towards Obama felt racial. Unfair of me? Perhaps, but it is there on some level.)
 
Yes, it is batshit when you consider the results of your actions will lead to a very hot war with all the other factions running around there, including Russia and Iran. If you think the refugee crisis now is somewhat bad, consider what happens when the entire region is embroiled in war.

We can do a lot of things to help Syria that are far, far better than literally invading Syria and inflaming the pro-Syria forces.
Russia and Iran do not want Assad toppled and I'm sure they also do not want millions of refugees pouring over their boarders anymore. We have to make it clear that we are creating a safe zone. It's not war mongering if it's through a coalition and the zone is internationally respected. There's literally nothing else we can do for Syria. Anything we do will be nullified by inaccurate barrel bombs that Assad drops on his own people. There's no safe zone for citizens they are in constant fear they are in an area that will be targeted next. The population of the country has been almost cut in half in the past few years
 
That's one point of contention that the "I-want-Sanders-or-I'll-take-my-ball-home" crowd has never been able to respond to.

Say Hillary loses and Trump or Cruz or Rubio wins. Ginsburg departs, and we get an Alito-type in her place. The court is now 6-3, conservative.

2020 comes, and we do succeed in electing a Bernie-type of candidate, along with a fresh left-leaning Congress.

From there, anything remotely controversial that gets passed into law gets challenged. With the high court sitting at 6-3, we know how most of these challenges end. And it isn't for four or eight years - the typical Supreme Court justice is now serving more than 25 years.

---

I get voting for your preference in the primary. I will not begrudge a person for that one bit. But folks claiming to be passionate about Bernie's causes expressing a willingness to sentence his movement to death by judiciary if they don't get what they want in this one cycle? That makes zero sense, and I have to question just how devoted they are to his causes.
it is pointless to debate with he ultra-far-left who believe that Hillary is the same as any Republican.

the ultra-far-left are just as stubborn as the Right Wingers and are ready to give up the Supreme Court to the GOP out of ideological pride because their candidate did not become nominee.

Bernie supporters forget that Bernie was a life long Independent who conveniently adopted the D sign to use the Democrat's Primary race as his own vehicle to propel himself.

Ordinary establishment Democrats have no incentive on picking someone who won't be much help on the down ticket.
 
Bernie loves FDR so much that maybe he'll try to finish what he started with the supreme court too. I've never really thought about that before, I actually doubt it.
 

HylianTom

Banned
it is pointless to debate with he ultra-far-left who believe that Hillary is the same as any Republican.

the ultra-far-left are just as stubborn as the Right Wingers and are ready to give up the Supreme Court to the GOP out of ideological pride because their candidate did not become nominee.

Bernie supporters forget that Bernie was a life long Independent who conveniently adopted the D sign to use the Democrat's Primary race as his own vehicle to propel himself.

Ordinary establishment Democrats have no incentive on picking someone who won't be much help on the down ticket.

I just figured I'd bring it up yet again.

I figured I'd give them yet another chance to address this major point. They've had multiple opportunities, and the silence speaks volumes.
 

Baron Aloha

A Shining Example
Because she is fake as hell and only cares about getting power so she can help people on Wall Street continue to screw over the middle class in this country. She'll sell us out just like Obama did with the TPP, CISPA, etc.

I probably wouldn't do it, but I'd be lying if I didn't say that the thought of voting for the presumptive GOP nominee over her hadn't crossed my mind on more than one occasion. I'm starting to wonder if things have to get a lot worse before they can get better.

I'm sick of seeing the democrats move more and more to the right and I'm tired of voting for the lesser of two evils. We need a radical change in this country and I really feel like we are running out of time.
 

spock

Member
Its hard to trust her as she does not come off very genuine. She talks and acts like a politician in the sense that what you see and hear feels scripted/calculated/expected. There is a vibe that she has multiple agendas going on and we only hear what she wants us to hear. This gives the impression that you never know what she really stands for.

Now the above applies to may in the political field, the difference is the delivery, etc. Others also have a better balance of mixing in a more "real person" feel to their character. This is why people like trump have appeal to some. The appearance of an unscripted off the cuff nature and style conveys trust. A what you see is what you get type deal. In contrast, Hillary seems the type to keep things in the closet and do a lot of back room whispering.

Everything I'm talking about is perception based. I'm not saying Hillary or Trump is actually any of the above. But that's the perception they give off to some, and for many perception is truth.
 

Knoxcore

Member
Establishment candidates usually have low enthusiasm.

Having said that I don't think anyone, Democrats or Republicans will argue that she is not ready to be be President. I think most will agree, she is probably the most ready to take the reins, but these elections are not always about who is ready to be President but who has the most exciting vision and the authenticity to sell that vision with a relatable personality.
 

Inuhanyou

Believes Dragon Quest is a franchise managed by Sony
As somebody who is completely disgusted with the Republican Party and is open to possibly switching sides in the general election, I'm curious why there is little enthusiasm from liberals on here.

Because Hillary aint a Liberal, nor is she a progressive. She is a politician, in a nice suit, who is the embodiment of the system that actual liberals have lived to fight against for centuries. She is fully representative of the corporate and special interests that shake down the citizen and put our country at risk time and again with their greed.

Its not just her in this race that represents these intrests, but she is the most representative of this system of governance at this point in time.

You do realize this exact example applies to Sanders as well?

He has supported progressive ideals since before Hillary was shilling for Barry Goldwater.
 
Because Hillary aint a Liberal, nor is she a progressive. She is a politician, in a nice suit, who is the embodiment of the system that liberals have lived to fight against for centuries.

She is a progressive and liberal, no matter how hard people try to pretend otherwise.

I am both a liberal and a progressive and I am excited for her candidacy.
 
Because Hillary aint a Liberal, nor is she a progressive. She is a politician, in a nice suit, who is the embodiment of the system that liberals have lived to fight against for centuries.

Thank you. I've spent months explaining to people why i'll never vote for Hillary Clinton with oh-so many more words, when this post PERFECTLY sums up why i'll never vote for her. To me, her past political decisions and opinions prove to me she doesn't really care about the things she claims to be in support of.

I fully intend on only voting for Bernie Sanders. He's the only candidate whose positions & policies I agree with, except he has the political history to back up that he is more honest & sincere in wanting to pursue his stated goals than I think Mrs. Clinton ever would be. Should Hillary Clinton win the Democratic Nomination, I fully intend on not voting the day of the general election.
 

fantomena

Member
She is a progressive and liberal, no matter how hard people try to pretend otherwise.

I am both a liberal and a progressive and I am excited for her candidacy.

She was a big supporter of the disaster trans-atlantic partnership agreement which would destroy workers rights and every leftist in Europe which Ive talked to hates her for that.

Yes, she is very liberal and progressive now which is a fantastic thing.
 
OP I'll try to explain as best I can as a guy who has voted democrat his entire life:

Hillary does not seem genuine to me. She comes off like a character on House of Cards. She changes her stances on issues that are very important to me and has dragged her feet before finally picking a side on others.

Some examples:

-Trans Pacific Partnership
She changed her stance on this. She once called it the "gold standard" for trade agreements and now has since turned 180 and no longer supports it. Bernie has been on the right side of this one since it started to leak to the public.

-Gay Marraige
She was against it and vocal enough about it as late as 2007. Now she is in favor of it, but I think public opinion is largely in favor and that is why she started changing her tune in 2013. It makes me think she changed her stance because it was the popular one to take.

-Keystone XL
She took a very long time to come out against it. Meanwhile, Bernie was there seemingly on day one calling it garbage.

-Net Neutrality
Clinton supported net neutrality since 2006 which is great. I actually really appreciate this about her. However, Bernie was very vocal about it during the times when it came under fire the most. This is actually what put Bernie on my radar, several years ago. I was in school writing papers on it and was introduced to "The Bernie Buzz" newsletter where he was rallying people to defend net neutrality. I also started seeing him on Real Time with Bill Maher about then or shortly after it feels. While the candidates are probably pretty even here and Clinton has put in work just as Bernie has, Bernie was the loudest at the time when I was paying most attention.

-Gun Control
I don't trust Hillary to protect my 2nd amendment rights if she believes it will benefit her to let them dissolve. I think Bernie has a better understanding and respect of what gun rights mean to different people across the country and I believe Hillary doesn't really care one way or the other.

-Health Care
Clinton seems to be backing off of universal healthcare in recent days. I'm not sure where she will end up with this, but I like Bernie's stance that it should be a right of all people to get health care. I don't see him changing his stance on that and for that reason, that's another point for Bernie.

-Money in Politics
Hillary takes money from Wall St and big corporations. She has a Super PAC. Bernie does not. If you need an example of why this is a problem, look at how dysfunctional the GOP has become as they struggle to felate their corporate masters while their base turns on them. Even Obama serves corporate masters and if you doubt that, the TPP should be the example to demonstrate that point. I think back in 2000 it was laid bare that our elections aren't really ours. That really bothers me and I see Bernie as somebody to fight that machine.

Its just hard to get excited about somebody that I don't think feels strongly about her policies and will change her stances when it seems like she might gain political leverage. I think she's a game player and in our current world of politics, that's just the nature of the beast. I think for a long time, you would HAVE to be a game player to get by in our political structure. However, Bernie is talking about changing all that. I know he can't do it by himself, but I am excited at the thought of him ushering in a new age where politics aren't so shady and corrupt. I want big money out and I think he's the one to lead the charge.
All of this plus Wal-Mart board member
 

Dude Abides

Banned
I wonder how many of these self-proclaimed progressives railing against Hillary Clinton have ever engaged in any liberal activism that did not involve pimping Bernie Sanders on the internet. I'm guessing it's a pretty small proportion.
 
- The sense of entitlement her campaign has protruded since her loss to Obama
- The fact that I don't trust her, as I didn't trust Bill
- Like this has irked me more than anything. So what, you feel you're being scapegoated, act like a fucking professional.
- The Haitian Gold Mine Contract that would never have happened if not for the Earthquake
- The opinion that I have that family members of preseidents shouldn't be eligible
 

Lkr

Member
i have yet to see a convincing argument as to why i should vote for clinton. she doesn't represent my beliefs as well as her opponent.
 

Knoxcore

Member
She's not moderate. She's solidly right wing.
Is this a joke? Only Maoist Commies will think Clinton is a right wing politician.

Frankly, for some Bernie supporters to completely call it quits if their candidate does not win show they don't care about the cause. They would rather have an actual Republican in the White House who will appoint conservative judges, dismantle health care, do nothing on immigration, education, inequality and criminal justice reform than support a candidate who is trying to achieve a progressive agenda. Hillary didn't kill your baby, get over your irrational hate and vote for the Democratic nominee regardless of who it is if you support a progressive agenda.
 
Thank you. I've spent months explaining to people why i'll never vote for Hillary Clinton with oh-so many more words, when this post PERFECTLY sums up why i'll never vote for her. To me, her past political decisions and opinions prove to me she doesn't really care about the things she claims to be in support of.

I fully intend on only voting for Bernie Sanders. He's the only candidate whose positions & policies I agree with, except he has the political history to back up that he is more honest & sincere in wanting to pursue his stated goals than I think Mrs. Clinton ever would be. Should Hillary Clinton win the Democratic Nomination, I fully intend on not voting the day of the general election.

Then you care about Bernie Sanders not about the issues you hold dear. Don't pretend, then, that you're voting for his positions or policies. You're voting for him. If a GOP candidate gets the nomination, any chance of progress towards what Bernie is espousing is completely gone. A refusal to vote for the Democratic candidate means that you're willing to throw everyone who would be hurt by their policies under the bus because of some sense of ideological purity.

Don't let the good be the enemy of the perfect.
 

ivysaur12

Banned
- Like this has irked me more than anything. So what, you feel you're being scapegoated, act like a fucking professional.

That entire run with the Benghazi Committee was one of the most impressive things that Hillary has ever done, and if you're problem with her is a still of her resting on her hand, then I don't know what to say to you besides, get better priorities??

Really? This is what it's come to?
 
Is this a joke? Only Maoist Commies will think Clinton is a right wing politician.

Frankly, for some Bernie supporters to completely call it quits if their candidate does not win show they don't care about the cause. They would rather have an actual Republican in the White House who will appoint conservative judges, dismantle health care, do nothing on immigration, education, inequality and criminal justice reform than support a candidate who is trying to achieve a progressive agenda. Hillary didn't kill your baby, get over your irrational hate and vote for the Democratic nominee regardless of who it is if you support a progressive agenda.
Well I am a commie. I'm not a Bernie supporter. Hillary Clinton is backed by all the classic big money as the republicans. She was a Wal-Mart board member. She's a warhawk. She's a classic right wing capitalist and every front she puts on is so obviously artificial and pandering.
 

fantomena

Member
on what, specifically? because she's definitely against it re: the safety net programs, as is every other politician in the democratic party

Natural resources and prisons.

Well I am a commie. I'm not a Bernie supporter. Hillary Clinton is backed by all the classic big money as the republicans. She was a Wal-Mart board member. She's a warhawk. She's a classic right wing capitalist and every front she puts on is so obviously artificial and pandering.

There is no need to be a commie to think she is right-winged on many issues.
 

dabig2

Member
Russia and Iran do not want Assad toppled and I'm sure they also do not want millions of refugees pouring over their boarders anymore. We have to make it clear that we are creating a safe zone. It's not war mongering if it's through a coalition and the zone is internationally respected. There's literally nothing else we can do for Syria. Anything we do will be nullified by inaccurate barrel bombs that Assad drops on his own people. There's no safe zone for citizens they are in constant fear they are in an area that will be targeted next. The population of the country has been almost cut in half in the past few years

A safe zone is really only a temporary solution - a very expensive and complicated one. To even enforce such an operation would require a lot of money and a lot of manpower in both hostile air and hostile ground, especially with ISIS still running wild in large areas there. And then you will have the Syrian government trying to blow our planes out of the sky no matter how tough we talk to them and her allies. Since Syria doesn't want us there and they have Iran and Russia already in the country helping out, the US barging in and essentially invading and occupying the land won't get us anywhere except towards a very violent conflict with guys we don't really want to be engaging.

I'm all for helping people, but playing at world police and saying "screw you, I'm just gonna do this" to those opposed is not our job in this world. It has this tendency of blowing up in our faces.
 

SmokeMaxX

Member
Because Hillary aint a Liberal, nor is she a progressive. She is a politician, in a nice suit, who is the embodiment of the system that actual liberals have lived to fight against for centuries. She is fully representative of the corporate and special interests that shake down the citizen and put our country at risk time and again with their greed.

Its not just her in this race that represents these intrests, but she is the most representative of this system of governance at this point in time.

He has supported progressive ideals since before Hillary was shilling for Barry Goldwater.
Lol. If Bernie is such an outsider/anti-establishment, why did he go from an Independent to running in the Democratic Primary? He should just run as an Independent and set fire to the two-party system. I get that it's easy to get caught up in something that you're passionate about, but people got huge blinders on for Bernie. If he ever got elected President, they'd be in for a rude awakening.
 

TurboCooler

Neo Member
Riddle me this.

If Hillary is so accomplished, please name 3 outstanding noteworthy accomplishments?

She has held no executive office where she has had to deal with large budgets and complicated local issues. All of her political appointments have been just that, political. If she is going to trust the day to day running of the country to others because she is not skilled enough on things like budgets and agency issues, she is not the person I want when we have limping economy.

Since this is a sub-section of a video game forum, does nobody recall she lead the charge in the Senate to censor and/or ban video games like GTA and Call of Duty?

Does nobody remember she was one of the lawyers for Wal-Mart at one time and defended their labor practices?

Does nobody know about her long list of Wall Street Donor's? Those many $$$ signs mean a whole lot of promises to keep if she becomes POTUS
http://money.cnn.com/2015/12/21/investing/hillary-clinton-wall-street-donations/index.html

Going all the way back to Arkansas before she became a carpet bagger to NY, she has been embroiled in one controversy or another. While she has always slipped by and not gone to jail. Few American trust her: http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2014/...-faces-trust-deficit-with-voters-wsjnbc-poll/

Even going back to 2008 the far left media was saying this "Nobody Trusts Hillary, Except Bitter Old Boomers" http://wonkette.com/380434/nobody-trusts-hillary-except-bitter-old-boomers#gwohbUvBLVXVAORq.99

I believe there should be a women president. But, the country should not pick just any women President and just because Hillary is available should not automatically make her the one we pick to be the first female President. We should not pick someone simply to make history. There are far too many domestic and global issues. We should not close our eyes and select someone just because she is a women and hope and pray the other real issues work out.

I am not against Hillary despite her faults but at the same time, she gives me zero confidence that she is the one who should lead the country with the many domestic and global problems we face -- nope, she is not the one.
 

Moofers

Member
You do realize this exact example applies to Sanders as well?
You guys say that but Sanders never explicitly came out and said "I believe marraige is defined by one man and one woman". Holding out on being vocal because he was already dealing with fallout over civil union approval is not nearly the same as saying "one man one woman" as Hillary did.
 

ezrarh

Member
Apparently Hillary is a terrible person to be on security detail for because ..she's a terrible person behind the cameras from what I've been told. For me I don't care how charismatic they are as long as they enact the policies that I want but it's not difficult to see why people aren't enthusiastic for her.
 
Is this a joke? Only Maoist Commies will think Clinton is a right wing politician.

Frankly, for some Bernie supporters to completely call it quits if their candidate does not win show they don't care about the cause. They would rather have an actual Republican in the White House who will appoint conservative judges, dismantle health care, do nothing on immigration, education, inequality and criminal justice reform than support a candidate who is trying to achieve a progressive agenda. Hillary didn't kill your baby, get over your irrational hate and vote for the Democratic nominee regardless of who it is if you support a progressive agenda.

There are tons of people who have very legitimate reasons to not be convinced by any of Hillary's stated goals & agendas, and her intention in pursuing them once she is in office. Why should we tow the party line if we don't trust the candidate? I'm not just a Bernie supporter because I agree with his politics - part of it is also because he is the only other liberal candidate in the race. I'd love it if there were a few more legitimate candidates I could hear from & decide between, personally.

The only thing I have decided, conclusively, is that I won't vote for Hillary Clinton, pure & simple. Its not like i'm on here saying i'm gonna vote Republican if Hillary gets nominated, and I haven't seen that sentiment from the overall majority of Bernie's supporters that i've observed or interacted with either.
 

Protein

Banned
Focus-tested, sterile, and uninspiring. She's a politician who someone left running on autopilot. Might as well just campaign for those liberal Supreme Court Justices because that's all she's worth putting in office for.
 

Moofers

Member
Lol. If Bernie is such an outsider/anti-establishment, why did he go from an Independent to running in the Democratic Primary? He should just run as an Independent and set fire to the two-party system. I get that it's easy to get caught up in something that you're passionate about, but people got huge blinders on for Bernie. If he ever got elected President, they'd be in for a rude awakening.
You dont get to participate in debates as an independent. Lets not pretend the system isn't set up to make contenders pick a side or be ignored.
 
You guys say that but Sanders never explicitly came out and said "I believe marraige is defined by one man and one woman". Holding out on being vocal because he was already dealing with fallout over civil union approval is not nearly the same as saying "one man one woman" as Hillary did.

In other words, instead of being the brave truth teller everybody thought he was, Sanders acted like a....*gasp*...a politician!
 
So are you cool with Bernie's wishy-washy support for gay marriage that you seem to agree with in regards to "all of this"? And then his attempt to handwave it away as just being pragmatic?

And you're against reasonable gun control?
No. I'm not a Bernie supporter. And "against reasonable gun control", what a stupid question. No, I'm for reasonable gun control. But my definition of reasonable is probably different from yours. I'm a strong supporter of gun rights.
 

Knoxcore

Member
Thank you. I've spent months explaining to people why i'll never vote for Hillary Clinton with oh-so many more words, when this post PERFECTLY sums up why i'll never vote for her. To me, her past political decisions and opinions prove to me she doesn't really care about the things she claims to be in support of.

I fully intend on only voting for Bernie Sanders. He's the only candidate whose positions & policies I agree with, except he has the political history to back up that he is more honest & sincere in wanting to pursue his stated goals than I think Mrs. Clinton ever would be. Should Hillary Clinton win the Democratic Nomination, I fully intend on not voting the day of the general election.
You are NOT progressive then and don't care about the progressive agenda. Please, vote your preference in the primary. I encourage it. But you will rather not take part in the political process because you got burned in the primary? You will rather have a Republican in the White House appointing conservative judges? Dismantle health care? Do nothing on minimum wage? Education? Immigration? Etc. You people are not about the cause. You're about the man and frankly it sickens me that people will throw away their vote because they didn't get their way.
 
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