They are a reflection of the values, ideas, and social attitudes we collectively have. Apathy, division, superstition...
The 4th Democratic Primary Debate
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They are a reflection of the values, ideas, and social attitudes we collectively have. Apathy, division, superstition...
soul creator
Member
I think the whole point is that in a world where someone like Sanders gets elected (a world where people are much more highly motivated to vote and stay active in the political process), Congress would look nothing like what it does now, and make it a lot easier to pass those types of bills.
Now, it's certainly fair to point out that "people being motivated to vote" is a big if, but there ya go. Sanders would be the first one to mention that it's obvious current Republicans are not just gonna sit there and pass whatever he wanted.
Monocle
Member
There's still time to crown Obama our emperor.
lol
The only thing these politicians haven't been pressed on is worker-owned cooperatives, a move away from the allegedly agreed upon capitalist system we now endure. I really wish Bernie would speak up more about co-ops and their positive effects on the communities they serve. That is democracy in the workplace, where we really need it. Why are these cunts acting as if there's only one way to do business?
EDIT: Not that I expected it to be brought up in a debate co-moderated by Alan Greenspan's wife
The good thing is that the demographic shift makes it more possible for such people to be elected.
TheRedSnifit
Member
Somebody ban this man.
Do you know how many people actually paid those 90% marginal rates? Almost nobody. I'd like to see tax rates raised on the rich as much as anyone else, but Bernie has effectively signed his campaign's death warrant by proposing to raise middle class tax rates as well. He can explain all he wants about how overall costs to taxpayers will go down under his plan (and they certainly would), but just like with the word 'socialsim', once you say 'middle class tax hike', the average voter tunes out (at best). My only hope is that his tax hike soundbite doesn't poison the Democratic side of the election as a whole.
I'm a big fan of pragmatism and incremental improvement on hard won gains, and not on 'toss it all out the window and start anew'. The former is how we've been making progress for the last 100+ years, while the latter gets you absolutely nowhere.
AlteredBeast
Fork 'em, Sparky!
I always considered myself an Eisenhower Republican,back when I was a Republican...
excelsiorlef
Member
If you think the gap between Hillary and Bernie is the same as pro and anti civil rights democrats were I want to know what kind of drugs you're on.
Exactly. We're not as different as it would be interesting for some to be. I'ts kinda boring being a Democrat now. We get along much more than otherwise. We're largely on the same page.
As a Bernie guy, I just want to exemplify our division against the Republicans / right wing.
excelsiorlef
Member
It's a relief because either way your democrat party is in safe hands.
Obviously not. I was making a statement that the times are very different. Dems went through a failure back then strictly due to racist ass dems abandoning the party, not because they were pie in the sky socialists.
ErasureAcer
Banned
One of The Young Turks guys said it best(in the panel with the 2 ladies)...what the hell is Clinton's agenda? 8 more years of Status Quo Obama? Yeah...great...that's not what people voted for 8 years ago(I didn't vote for Obama then because I knew he wasn't the messiah people made him out to be). Bernie is the real Hope and Change. But will people vote for him because he's white, old and a man...or a historically typical looking President? Sociologists, Psychologists and Political Scientists must find this all way too intriguing. Everything has been spun on its head with Bernie.
I think Bernie won the debate, again. Bernie conceded the gun issue. He said his piece...I'm a D- NRAer....I'm not the wingnut Hillary makes me out to be. That jab by Hillary on Guns really didn't land too great. Bernie's attacks were far more powerful...calling out Hillary's compensation from Goldman Sachs and so forth and then expecting her to solve anything regarding the financial institutions. She already can't be trusted. Bernie knows the populace knows that from polls that say as such. He whipped her up good on trust issues. I wouldn't be surprised if she drops further on Trust issues if that's a crosstab in post-debate polls.
The moderators were better than I expected they would be. Mitchell asked a good follow-up on Sanders' healthcare plan on how middle class taxes would rise according to Bernie's proposal in opposition to what he said before in that the only middle class tax increase(edit) would be the $1.38/wk for the Paid Family and Medical Leave bill he supports(Gillibrand's bill which Hillary does not support). Sanders did a great job explaining how it's not a middle class tax because in fact they're saving money under his plan. Yes, there's a new tax but the savings on a typical earner of $50,000/yr would be coming out, even after the tax, $5,000 ahead. Specifics that the American people can understand. Hillary's healthcare plan? Obamacare with it's high premiums and deductibles. Which she also said healthcare costs under Obamacare had dropped to their lowest costs in some odd years...think she said 50. Yeah, she was fact checked on that...TOTALLY FALSE!
I think TYT guy really said it best though. Clinton has no vision for this country.
Bernie dominated this thing. Man it was something else. I saw Hillary on the ropes like never before. Good stuff. I cant wait for Iowa because I think the country is going to go nuts when Bernie wins there. Hope and optimism and fire and passion will ignite across the land and its going to feel amazing.
I disagree. The Western World has moved on.
You'd be assuming incorrectly...
I hope so. Because we're not at our best at the moment.
riverboatgambler
Banned
I'd take Clinton over Sanders but they are both somewhat mediocre candidates. The level of demagoguery about business and robin hood style economics from the Sanders campaign just misses the defining characteristics of America. Clinton is running a content-free campaign much like Obama did in 2012 - but she is incredibly polished at this stage in her life.
OrangeGrayBlue
Member
If you expect an American politician to talk about getting rid of jobs, you will be very disappointed. I agree with your point, but Bernie Sanders is running on a platform of ideas that are overall quite popular and is still considered to be fanatically leftist. Talking about eradicating the need to work/have a job is political suicide in the US. This country prides itself on working hard and being employed. It will take a while to convince a meaningful chunk of Americans to reconsider what is undoubtedly a pillar of our cultural values.
That said, he did get asked about basic income in a reddit AMA and said that it could eventually be feasible, or something along those lines. That's as close as any candidate will come to touching on the topic of automation eroding our workforce.
He's considered a basic income program as the last resort of all resorts. It's a terrible position to take, but Hillary's answer was literally "lolmoms." I'm not even kidding.
People who may be affiliated with Sanders, assuming he gets in, will move forward with this. Robert Reich has outright said a basic income program must happen, though I don't agree with his model. Milton Friedman's model sounds best, and that's a Republican model via Negative Income Tax. Better than taxing patents, which was Reich's idea.
Tim Canova, a man running to replace DNC lazy queen DWS herself is one who supports Sanders and thinks a basic income is a necessity. The fact someone who's studied law and public finance feels this is needed, and actually wants to represent the DNC, is remarkable. It's a shame the Democratic party isn't talking about the severity of our problems here, though Obama essentially spoke about the ultimatums we face from his State of the Union address.
I think the next generation of politicians will get it, but all of those folks are under the age of 40. We're run by people who are close to being senior citizens.
teruterubozu
Member
Anything interesting happen last night? Digging this thread up from page 3 before it fades away.
Clinton wraps herself in Obama like he's her most treasured blanket and attempts to solidify the black vote.
Sanders details his latest (latest, latest) healthcare proposals, attempts to defend his record, calls Trump a scientist hating conspiracy theorist in one fell swoop.
O'Malley... Is pretty.
https://youtu.be/qfFMgPCVIt8
teruterubozu
Member
Funny cuz during the State of the Union Obama sounded like he was endorsing Sanders (get money and corporate interests out of politics, etc.).
Both candidates played to their bases. Sanders to his younger voters looking for significant change and a political revolution and Clinton to the Obama coalition.
Clinton hit Sanders on guns. Sanders hit Clinton on Wall St. Both hit each other on healthcare. They agreed on climate change, criminal justice reform, ISIS. O'Malley still looks like a Democratic cheerleader and an also ran.
Probably hasn't really changed up the primary much.
Clinton hit Sanders on guns. Sanders hit Clinton on Wall St. Both hit each other on healthcare. They agreed on climate change, criminal justice reform, ISIS. O'Malley still looks like a Democratic cheerleader and an also ran.
Probably hasn't really changed up the primary much.
Bernie did a good job last night, but he still needs more. Hitting Clinton on Wall St was obvious and good, but he NEEDS to explain himself more clearly on issues like "what is democratic socialism?", and "how would you implement gun control?". Seems a bit, too little too late now and he needs the minority vote. Unfortunately, these elections are about perception and right now, it's working against him. The perception of "demonic socialist" will DEFINITELY be used by any republican contender. Trump is already railing against his 90% tax nonsense. Bernie needs to use the next debate to clarify his positions on Guns, Socialism, and healthcare without sounding like a pie-in-the-sky prophet.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
I only managed to catch about half an hour of the middle of the debate because per the usual they schedule it at the worst time for me. During that half hour all I experienced was Hillary yelling, Bernie dodging, and O'Malley asking for 30 seconds. I plan to watch a recording of the debate later and hope it's better than that half hour I saw.
gutter_trash
Banned
Jimmy Carter gets too much of a bum rap when egomaniacs like Ted Kennedy screwed Jimmy Carter over in 1980
QuantumZebra
Member
Is it bad that looking at our current choices, I'm ok with this?
Doc Holliday
SPOILER: Columbus finds America
My own silly observation:
Obama was a lot more pragmatic than many believed
Clinton will be more liberal than she's letting on
Bernie will be Bernie
Obama was a lot more pragmatic than many believed
Clinton will be more liberal than she's letting on
Bernie will be Bernie
like most of the debates so far whoever you agree with most between Hillary and Bernie likely won and then O'Malley came in second and then whoever you agree with least between Hillary and Bernie likely lost.
I'm a Bernie fan so personally I thought as far as content went Bernie clearly won. however as far as poise and all those fluff words go Hillary won except when she got legit shook over a couple of domestic issues. the moment of the night for me was Bernie sharpening his corruption attacks against Hillary and linking her to Goldman Sachs. and the awful moderators cutting every cadidate off for a commercial at least once ;p
Reading shit like this is sad. The Congress is there to do what the people tell it to do, not the other way around. This is how fucked up our democracy is right now, it's completely backwards from how it should work.
eBay Huckster
Member
Byakuya769
Member
This paragraph is rich. Use a republican talking point about Obama to big up a guy who's main slogan has become "uh, we need a revolution!"
bernie sanders is a serious threat to the Clinton campaign. that was the subtext I got from the whole thing.
Did he perform better than the last debate?
as far as who won, that's going to be dependent on who you favor. I personally thought Bernie did great but I already supported him. what I meant by that post was that the content of this debate seemed to revolve around Bernie's stances on all the issues more so than previous debates.
Well I support Bernie, but he did pretty poorly in the previous debate. Thanks for the info.
I asked this last night and I didn't see a response. My two biggest issues on why I'm having a hard time supporting the Democrats this year despite being pretty unhappy with the Republican field.
1. How much is their fair share in terms of the rich and corporations? People love this sound bite but nobody every says how high they plan to raise their taxes. It's great for political points since most people aren't and won't ever be rich, but people also seem to not realize that at some point increasing taxes on these groups will have a negative effect on our economy.
2. Hillary listing a number of policies they will make the 1% pay for brings up a related point. How on earth will all of these policies be paid for? There is only so much money you can take from the rich before it becomes to negatively effect our economy. Plus i don't doubt some of the rich will eventually leave if the tax situation gets bad enough, which means all their potential revenue goes with them. The point is, the ambitious programs being presented, especially from Sanders, can't possibly be paid by the ultra rich only. Like with his single payer proposal, it will require increased revenue from all Americsns, and I think it's time for the Democrats to be honest about it. At least Bernie is.
1. How much is their fair share in terms of the rich and corporations? People love this sound bite but nobody every says how high they plan to raise their taxes. It's great for political points since most people aren't and won't ever be rich, but people also seem to not realize that at some point increasing taxes on these groups will have a negative effect on our economy.
2. Hillary listing a number of policies they will make the 1% pay for brings up a related point. How on earth will all of these policies be paid for? There is only so much money you can take from the rich before it becomes to negatively effect our economy. Plus i don't doubt some of the rich will eventually leave if the tax situation gets bad enough, which means all their potential revenue goes with them. The point is, the ambitious programs being presented, especially from Sanders, can't possibly be paid by the ultra rich only. Like with his single payer proposal, it will require increased revenue from all Americsns, and I think it's time for the Democrats to be honest about it. At least Bernie is.
I did think Bernie had a bit more poise this time around. his facial expressions when Hillary was spouting bullshit were great. he also sharpened his attacks against Hillary for the money she receives from corporations. he brought up her connection to Goldman Sachs on multiple occasions.
Soulscribe
Member
These debates won't help Bernie large-scale. The only way he can close in on Hillary is if her elect-ability comes under fire. Coz at the moment, she has no real caveats or political risks associated with her nomination. No, she's not as liberal as Bernie but she strikes the right chord with moderates and she's realistic as to what you can accomplish in-office and how. Bernie declaring war on any and all establishment groups is going to make him an enemy of Washington and none of the paradigm shifts he's talking about will come anywhere near fruition. Sorry. You can give the powers that be less power but decimating them completely is ridiculous. Especially when you're planning to go about that alone.
People need to focus less on campaign trail promises and take a look at what these candidates have done up to this point, how realistic their political goals are, and how prepared they are to win the general election. Bernie's a refreshing populist candidate but he's not made for this.
People need to focus less on campaign trail promises and take a look at what these candidates have done up to this point, how realistic their political goals are, and how prepared they are to win the general election. Bernie's a refreshing populist candidate but he's not made for this.
He got some good hits on her, but he looked like a one-note politician when he pivoted back to Wall Street and Super-PACs in completely unrelated questions.
He really needs to work on that.
gutter_trash
Banned
Bernie needs to talk about other things, new things, get detailed about renewable sources of energy.
going on about Wall Street gets boring real fast and ends up sounding like a broken record.
Best way to get attention is by coming up with new shit
They have said the percentages during the debates. The rich aren't going anywhere and even if they do they still have to pay taxes as an American citizen.
The rich have to pay their fair share because they make 20x the money of an average person but don't spend 20x the amount of money. They use loopholes to keep from paying their share then keep the rest to make more money instead of spending it and helping to stimulate the economy, this is why trickle down economics doesn't work.
I agree as far as optics are concerned but he's not wrong
Aaron Strife
Banned
Just using Bernie's proposed tax rates under his single-payer plan, this is what taxes would go up to:
37% on income between 250k and 500k
43% on income between 500k and 2mil
48% on income between 2mil and 10mil
52% on income above 10mil
Throughout most of Reagan's presidency, the top tax rate was 50%.
Clinton's college plan (probably her most ambitious) says it will be paid for by "closing tax loopholes and expenditures for the most fortunate," which admittedly is vague. That's estimated to cost 350 billion dollars over ten years.
Also I think you greatly overestimate how easy it is to pack up and leave the country and how many people would actually do it. Not to mention many other developed nations have higher tax rates than we do, so they'd be leaving to... make less money and get taxed even more?
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