Crash Station
Member
The thread has gone in a different direction since the first page. If there's a consensus at all, there's not a huge discrepancy between the sides.
Fire Emblem Fates' localization doesn't have the petting minigame
- Thread starter kulapik
- Start date
- Status
The thread has gone in a different direction since the first page. If there's a consensus at all, there's not a huge discrepancy between the sides.
Great post, stuff that needed to be said.
Cow Mengde
Banned
Good riddance. Fire Emblem doesn't need this shit. NOA removing might be a wake up call to IS to stop upping the creeper levels in Fire Emblem.
Professor Beef
Banned
What if I don't think games are art? Can I keep my stance?
Elaugaufein
Member
I know right. People either agree with you on every issue or disagree with you totally. It's completely impossible that people support LGBTQ rights but oppose censorship *vanishes in a puff of logic*.
I do think it's ridiculous to paint someone as homophobic merely for supporting this being cut though, it makes about as much sense as immediately assuming that anyone who disagrees with it being cut is a GameGater/Right-Wing.
Bumbletron
Member
Yet who is to say that corporate middlemen aren't responsible for this content in the first place? The corporate middlemen you lambaste and lament in your post are also responsible for the content that gets into the game, not just that which is removed. If we are to have this discussion should we not question from where the content originated? If this was made by the suits, and removed by other suits, where would you stand then? Sometimes forcing things into games is as bad as taking them out. It still harms the integrity of the authors' vision.
HylianHero12
Member
What if the original developer is ok with/endorses the change? And what if the game had not been localized at all as opposed to having these changes made? I personally am of the opinion that there should be changes based on the different markets the game is released in, and if I don't like the changes themselves, that should be what influences my decision to purchase the game (as opposed to skipping the game "on principle" so to speak). The developer had to know that this was a likely edit to be made in localization, or else should they have refused to create the game if it would eventually lead to their artistic vision being compromised at some point?
But video games are a very business-driven industry. They are investments, which companies want to receive the greatest returns on. If making changes for a different market with different culture is going to potentially increase the appeal in that market, why shouldn't they do it? They paid the money to create the game, why shouldn't they be given the creative power to modify the game. Though I will say that there are some trends in the industry that seem to lead to stagnation, but I don't think localization changes are high on that list.
I think it could be very insightful if Intelligent Systems was able to give their opinion on the matter, though the chances of that happening are slim to none.
Edit:
Well, that would be a different situation. The same entity commissioned the work originally and edited it for a different market. If the Catholic church bought the rights after the Japanese version released, then we would probably be playing a whole different ball game. If they had already had the rights and commissioned a game in the FE series, then I think that those aspects would have been eliminated in all versions and we would never have heard of them.
I will agree with that, the post you had responded to was leaning toward the other extreme in the debate going on. I would originally have tried to avoid the word censorship before really reading into these discussions, since I feel it has a negative connotation that relates to oppression. Self-censorship I feel doesn't have that connotation, unless the person made that choice while under pressure from an authoritative body, since someone who has had control of the content throughout the entire process of its creation is the one making more changes. Who knows how many ideas IS may have had that NCL told them to remove from the game, which we will likely never see evidence of.
Battlechili
Banned
All right, thanks! This is wonderful news and you've been incredibly helpful.
Hiks. Sadness.
Now, i am confused. If the dialogue is only barrack level, then i am not going to lose any sleep over the lose as barracks dialogue is more or less useless as there is almost zero things i learned lol. But if more than this. I am going to get pissed.T_T
I suppose. I just do not appreciate being used by these people whenever they feel like it and then to have these same people throw us under the rug. It makes me feel like I'm some token to be used rather than like I'm an actual person.
Q has always meant questioning to me. I'm aware some attribute it to queer but I've always seen it as questioning myself. And she most definitely isn't even questioning. I mean, she's straight up lesbian. She expresses her distaste in men and very clearly her interest in women more than often enough. The game even makes it so her skill only activates around women. It's more than a bit disingenuous to say it's "non-standard". It's literally a relationship formed out of her being drugged into loving a man. Why defend that?
Crash Station
Member
No, people supporting this being cut aren't inherently homophobic. That doesn't mean it doesn't have some rather unfortunate implications to it that were likely completely unintentional. Are people with less than good intentions going to use that as an "anti-sjw" bullet point? Sure, but let's look at this for what it is divorced from any external bullshit like that.
Sure. I do feel a heteronormative, male-centric perspective helped make the decision to remove the minigame a bit easier, though. The possibilities for equal opportunity petting are pretty obvious: an avenue for homosexual affection, as you said; an outlet for exploring skinship in platonic relationships, including between two males or two females; an opportunity for defying stereotypical gender roles. It's easy to underemphasize those things if you're (and by "you're," I don't mean you specifically!) looking at the minigame exclusively through the perspective of a "typical" heterosexual male, who's far more likely to be pandered to with explicit eroticism than any of the things I mentioned.
I don't think there's much reason for getting up in arms, either way. On balance, though, there's a decent chance the end result of removing the minigame could be making the game more oriented toward straight males.
Crash Station
Member
Because that's not true. It's a relationship formed because "MC was nice enough to drug me to get over my fear" essentially. It's a fucked up, dysfunctional relationship well in-line with the character herself. It's not even close to gay conversion therapy.
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
Do you have a single fact to back that up?
Cow Mengde
Banned
Good. These money men deserves a raise. For one thing, I don't champion games are art. Art doesn't need to be championed. It's because the game industry is incredibly insecure about their creations that they need to champion games as art.
Just because something is a piece of art doesn't mean it show be on display. How many shitty pieces of art are crumbled and thrown in the garbage (or any other non-painting artistic forms of expression)? Giving it a pretentious title doesn't make something good.
Elaugaufein
Member
While it might be insightful, I don't think it'd change the discussion much either way.
Once a company has shown it's willing to adjust things for reasons of public perception, they lose the ability to be trusted on any statements that could affect their public perception*.
If they withdrew this change tomorrow and said it was a misinterpretation then the people saying "Good" , in this thread, would say they were pressured into that change.
Likewise if they said they made this change 100% internally the people who don't think that's the case aren't going to be convinced.
*And frankly few companies have much of that to start with.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
Not really the point.
That there are people in GAF applauding this censorship/content-cutting is enough to make me shake my head in disappointment, to be honest.
Road of Ease
Member
I feel that. Neither do I. Seeing the same people who were scrambling to make Soleil anything-but-gay a few days ago now trying to turn an anime petting minigame into a gay issue infuriates me. I just could not keep silent and let this bullshit slide.
But it is true. It's literally the game getting rid of everything about her character to make her relationship with a male character work. Even her romance convos. with all of the other male options revolve around her love of women and her hate of men. Yet she still ends up with dudes. The entire way her character is handled is an absolute mess. It's not "non-standard", it's the game pushing her out of her sexuality to make her be with a man.
I ask again-why are you defending this? It's quite literally as close to gay conversion as they could get. Even the Japanese audience sniffed this out for what it was.
Battlechili
Banned
I still wouldn't be supportive or okay with it if the original developer okay'd the changes during localization, at least not unless the changes made are made on all versions of the game and the developer fully believes it improves his game in the process. Perhaps I'm assuming too much by this, but oftentimes I feel that countries and people are so far away that understanding the market or the "necessity" to make such changes isn't fully understood by companies so far away, so a developer might just think "well, I guess this has to be done so sure" while not really liking it. Although I suppose like I said that that may assume too much and be belittling of the knowledge developers have of others in the world. And it has occurred in the past that its not always the case that companies are aware of what sort of localization changes are being made from country to country. I believe it happened to ARR in some other country where a localization made directly conflicted with a later update? I can't remember the details.
I would prefer such games not getting localized at all as opposed to being released but in a censored/edited state. If a game gets a localization that I would deem improper, it likely won't ever get brought over in its original state. We are eternally stuck with a different version of a game. However, if a game isn't localized in such a manner, its always open to other companies to do a more proper (at least in my mind) localization. In more clear words, I would rather companies that feel they must change the work leave it alone and let other companies have a go at it. And even if such a game can never come over no matter what as a result, at least I wouldn't be given a false hope for the game and that it wouldn't help set a precedent for censorship in the West.
Also I don't think it would be necessarily the case that developers would create titles with a worldwide release in mind, but only that they are creating a title and that people would play it, at least in their own country. Of course this is not always true, and sometimes games are made with other audiences in mind, and while I can appreciate this I don't want developers to not do something out of fear of problems in localizations later.
Also, regarding your personal views, I feel that's a fair belief, although I don't really agree. In my opinion, I feel that companies and consumers both should be aware that games not made in their country were made for a different market and be understanding of such when playing such a game, rather than changing it to accommodate Western audiences. I believe its belittling to consumers to edit a game's content for different audiences on localization to different countries, as if the people of those countries are unaware of a game's origins and who were the original audience of the game.
Bumbletron
Member
Microtransactions originated as a way to increase revenue on games as a product by the producers. That is a fact to back up the claim.
If you are going to blame them for removing stuff, perhaps we should look into whose idea it was to put it in in the first place. With how popular skinship is in Japan, doesn't it seem likely that it was added in solely to make the game more marketable to the Japanese public? Mini games like this are popular there, and this is not the first instance of this appearing in a nintendo product.
SenorArdilla
Member
And yet one of her marriage supports is with Foleo (a crossdresser who identifies as male) that Soleil proclaims to be "too cute to be a boy." Would you say it's offensive that Soleil (a lesbian according to you) was "tricked" into falling in love with him?
Coffee Dog
Banned
Skinship isn't popular in japan. It's actually fairly notorious for being something that most people don't give two shits about. It was likely put in because someone on the team thought it was a cool idea and they rolled with it for whatever reason. Personally, I'd think that lends more credence to it being a creative decision rather than a moneymaking one, but of course Nintendo has tried to pull dumber shit in the past so it's not a definitive answer.
Cow Mengde
Banned
To be fair, creepy garbage already started creeping in during Awakening. People were so happy with a new Fire Emblem that they ignored it. When you don't speak out, the developers get more bold and up the creep factor in Fates. That's why we need to speak out. NOA did good by removing the questionable crap. This will send a message to IS. I'd rather have the art style of Shadow Dragon than Awakening and Fates.
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
How popular it is also makes it likely the artists behind it liked it enough to include it. This goes both ways. We could argue like this until we're blue in the face, but we have actual statements from corporate middlemen quoted in the OP that are behind these changes whereas your assertion that these things were added by suits in opposition to the artists who made the game is entirely made up.
Crash Station
Member
Have you played the game? Her orientation is an enigma that admittedly does partially rely on the shitty Japanese view of teenage lesbians "growing out" of it, but that doesn't make her existence a condemnation of homosexual relationships when its possible with other characters. On an individual level, denying her wonky sexuality is the same thing Awakening did by not letting Tharja marry the female avatar.
It's not the same situation at all, and even if it was, with the removal of this mode, now there's even LESS possible homosexual interactions (even if not necessarily intentional). That's two losses for the LGBT audience.
It's prevalent and important enough that a Japanese-English term was born to refer to just it.
Bumbletron
Member
Someone in marketing has to think it's a good/marketable idea, because I can name at least three separate games off the top of my head with the feature in it. The point remains that it is being added into the game and greenlit by producers for a reason.
As I stated above, everything is greenlit by producers for a reason. Minigames like this can help or hurt the bottom line depending on the market. And which corporate middlemen are responsible? For all we know, NoA and treehouse could have talked with some from the original team and mutually determined to adjust/cut certain content from there. There is conjecture on both sides here.
The bolded was glib, I'll confess. I don't think it's inaccurate, however.
Awakening's support system was pretty pandering. I didn't like it, but I was entirely supportive of the general sentiment that if Nintendo intended to keep the wish-fulfillment relationship aspects of the game intact in future installments that they should have the decency to pander to people who weren't interested exclusively in heterosexual relationships. They, to my understanding, did so in Fates with one gay male and one lesbian romantic option. That's well and good, and I applaud them for taking the step, but it still seems inadequate. Considering that virtually every recruitable unit in Awakening could romance any opposite-sex member of the same generation it never seemed particularly outlandish to me that going all the way and making everyone bisexual would've even been particularly implausible by the game's standards.
So in this case, with the face-rubbing minigame, it seems like they had (albeit until now unbeknownst to me) taken a step in that direction and included a mode in the game which was significantly more inclined toward letting players choose any sort of romantic inclination they preferred. And which they are now excising from the game entirely, leaving only the support system of Awakening with two non-heterosexual options remaining. This seems like two steps forward, one step back to me.
With, of course, the rather crucial caveat that the step back in inclusivity is entirely the result of an editorial decision made while bringing the game overseas.
Debating whether the removal makes Nintendo's localization department, the game's intended audience, or the people lauding the removal homophobic doesn't seem like a productive argument to me. I'm not interested in trying to impugn anyone's character. But I think Nintendo has erred in this instance, whatever their motivations may have been.
Elaugaufein
Member
So how much influence does cowtipping have on your life ? I mean there's an English word for it, so it must be somewhat important.
Steve Youngblood
Member
I think the problem with Soleil is that she is portrayed very clearly as a lesbian (to me at least) but has no same-sex romance options. Even ignoring concerns about a potion being used to trick or help her (depending on your vuewpoin), male Corrin jokes that he guesses he doesn't have to worry about her cheating on him with another guy. The fact that the support conversations with her and Corrin are bizzarely written is problematic. But more so than that it just seems to write her as being interested in girls, but only as the setup to a joke I don't really get.
I have no problem with complex sexuality that leads to someone hooking up with a person outside of their primary orientation. But it just seems weird that this character that seems written to be super into girls only goes out to tea with them and only marries guys. Whatever they were going for with the character doesn't work at all in my opinion.
One thing I will say is that if this was something more like Monster Monpiece, I actually would be happy with this decision. But since it looks more like some silly Pokemon Amie knock-off I find it a little disappointing (not boycott worthy or anything crazy like that, but just a little disappointing). I don't see how anyone can label it creepy, because I think there actually IS a lot of stuff in games that's creepy. But this isn't it.
Have you listened to those who have played the game? The Japanese audience sniffed this out for what it was already. And everything I have seen (which is quite a bit) only further confirms their thoughts. You even started to partially admit to that here before trying to deny it. I have even repeated the details of it (and what is in the game itself) numerous times now. And you're still defending her literally being drugged into loving someone she consistently expresses no attraction for. It's the same/as close to gay conversion as the game could possibly get.
Thanks for using us whenever you deem fit, I suppose? I'm so tired of this.
I already addressed how her whole character is just a problematic mess. The way she is written they treat her as a "lesbians grow out of it/just needs to be corrected" stereotype. Your random 'gotcha' doesn't really change that that's what her character more or less is.
The art style in Shadow Dragons was complete lifeless garbage thought. There's no way this:
is better than this
You can clearly tell which one is going to attract the larger amount of people.
Enough that it has entered widespread popular culture as the base for jokes in television series and movies.
Lol omg. That "creepy garbage" saved the franchise from complete irrelevance.
Triple Dash
Neo Member
Now if they only removed Phoenix Mode as well, that might be enough to convince me not to buy the games used.
Man I hate the direction the series is going in. Just give me PoR/RD HD Remakes already.
Man I hate the direction the series is going in. Just give me PoR/RD HD Remakes already.
Lol, I prefer Shadow Dragon here.The art style in Shadow Dragons was complete lifeless garbage thought. There's no way this:
is better than this
You can clearly tell which one is going to attract the larger amount of people.
I'm weird in that I liked Shadow Dragon :/
Cow Mengde
Banned
Any facts to back up people bought Awakening for the creepy shit? Most people didn't even know the tone of the game until they played it. Plus, if the franchise died with New Mystery of the Emblem, then so be it. I rather see something die than to be tarnished. Plus, when do franchises ever stay dead? It might take 20 years, but games come back.
The art style in Shadow Dragons was complete lifeless garbage thought. There's no way this:
is better than this
You can clearly tell which one is going to attract the larger amount of people.
I completely agree here, Kozaki is an amazing artist and I think Awakening's was a huge step forward in terms of art style.
I felt previous games were really lacking, only exceptions were Path of Radiance and Radiant Dawn in my opinion, and even there many of PoR portraits were still messy.
I much preferred the art in the way early games and the art in 6 ,7 and 8. That said the Awakening art isn't bad. But there was some charm to the character designs in say Blazing Sword, for example.
Eugh.
While some of his designs are a little out there, Kozaki has made some of my favorite designs in the entire series:
And his designs for the generic units in Fates is gorgeous. I'm not against changing the character designer but I hope that IntSys refrain from going back to Shadow Dragon...
Will be glad if the go back to Senri Kita (Tellius games).
^ Miriel rocks, she's one of my faves <3
FWIW, this was me. I was super hyped at the announcement and, like I do very few times, I decided to not read a lot about the game until its release. Then I saw an adult woman falling in love and marrying a kid during my first playthrough, lol.
HylianHero12
Member
That is a valid point, it is a Catch-22. There are some individuals who will try to take any hypothetical statement made and twist it to endorse their point. But on the other hand, the wider audience probably has very little idea that this discussion in this thread is even going on, and they will buy the game, play it, and be none the wiser that a controversial change was made.
You have a fair point, and I do respect you opinion. I guess you and I have differing views on video games as an art form. It would be nice if the wider audiences would look at a product and try to have a deeper understanding of how, where, and by whom it was made, and judge the content on those merits. But unfortunately, a lot of consumers are going to look at it as just the end result and criticize elements that are foreign to them and their cultural influences.
- Status