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[Abounder]

I'm a Bernie fan, myself. But the amount of die-hard Bernie fans that have an amazing amount of hatred for Hillary is astounding. They go so far as to say that she's just as bad as Trump. If Bernie doesn't win the primaries, they plan on writing in his name in the general election or simply not voting at all. That makes us much more likely to have a republican president. The hatred for her is what makes me scared that we'll have Cruz, Trump, or Rubio as president.

I may not love Hillary, but I do NOT want a republican president, and I feel that anyone who's liberal should feel the same way. Why all the Hillary hate all of the sudden? I see so much anti-Hillary propaganda from liberals all over social media. Even in conversations, they shit on her so much. I know she's not going to crack down on Wall Street, I know she's not anti-establishment like Bernie, I know she's not a progressive. But the fact of the matter is that we CANNOT have a republican in the White House.

If Hillary loses it won't be because of stubborn Bernie supporters, it'll be because of the low voter turnout for the Dems (down 33% so far compared to 2008) meanwhile the Republicans are up 70% in SC. I just don't see the Dems 3-peating in the White House, there's too much momentum against them and the party really needs new leadership on all levels

Also DNC did no favors with its shitty TV scheduling as well, but maybe a Trump ticket will get a few of the Obama voters back especially after he endorses Hillary. That's the real question: where are the Obama voters?

 

[Vigilant Walrus]

For who?

Most of what you quoted deals with the Copyright protections that TPP seeks to make uniform across the Pacific, however, those are the very same protections that are already the law in the U.S. The copyright provisions in TPP seeks to make the U.S. the standard as it relates to copyright protections. Why would that be a bad deal for America?

Bad for other countries. A bad precedent for everyone else in a globalized world who doesn't want corporations to have that much power. Particularly outside their own countries.

 

[Big Baybee]

So you're for Bernie and whatever his cause, up until he states that he's packing it in, and he says that his supporters should vote Hilary..

It's frustrating, and it's going to fuck me and other minorities/lgbt groups. A republican winning this election means we are done for 30 years. Pack it up. Finished.

 

[And_Gignac]

She doesnt represent a change into the plutocracy/war on small countries paradigm, no matter how much their supporters want to spin it or get into the cult of her personality. Any self-respecting Bernie supporter that wants to vote in November should consider her over The Donald, though.

 

[FStubbs]

If absolutely nothing else, just vote in the goddamn election. The more a demographic turns out for elections, the more politicians will pay attention to them.

If Bernie can't get my age group to turn out for elections (which is one of his major points), then I've got no fucking idea what will.

Black people get pretty good turnout and only one party half listens to them.

 

[AngryMoth]

Just a casual observer of US politics so forgive is this is a dumb idea, but what are the chances that Hillary picks Bernie as her VP? Doesn't seem like there is a much bad blood between them and would be a good way to capture his very passionate supporters.

 

[Zeus Molecules]

one of my most liberal friends told me he wont vote if Hillary is the nominee because she doesn't want a political revolution like Bernie. He then went on this diatribe against her and ended it by stating if Trump got the presidency he would do so bad at it that the political revolution would be ensured....... I just sat there and looked at him like he was crazy. I wonder if half this hate for hillary is she is seen as the "settling" choice by the liberal and as dishonest by the repubs (who would also hate because she is a democrat).

 

[Tabris]

And clearly what happened in a country with a (de facto) unicameral parliamentary system can be implemented just as easily in the American federal system. Look, I want major healthcare reform, but you can't just get it by putting it all on the shoulders of the president. You need to understand how the system works. Quite frankly, serious reform won't happen until people make a concerted push to get it done in the state legislatures.

And how does voting for the establishment that wants to continue the status quo solve this?

I understand your system. I understand the limited power your president has. I also understand what Bernie Sanders is trying to accomplish. He's trying to galvanize a voting base for not just 2016 but more importantly for 2018. He wants democrats and republicans to question their representatives and pushing their agenda instead of the donors. Your country needs a political revolution and there's only one candidate that's pushing it.

He's trying to put the power back into the voter. The issue is the voter is so discouraged and defeated in your country via the buying power and propaganda of the 1%, that they have stifled any chance of a political revolution. The issue is the voter. You guys are weak.

Americans tend to make jokes about the French and surrendering in WW2. But you know what? They don't get pushed over and they actually fight for their rights there. You guys don't anymore. You've surrendered. You've surrendered to the corporations of your nation.

 

[Macho Madness]

Just a casual observer of US politics so forgive is this is a dumb idea, but what are the chances that Hillary picks Bernie as her VP? Doesn't seem like there is a much bad blood between them and would be a good way to capture his very passionate supporters.

Very low. Like, only as a last resort type thing.

 

[Log4Girlz]

What if Hillary decides to flip where she flopped and flop where she flipped.

She's going to wear flip flops in the Whitehouse

 

[ClosingADoor]

My vote is incredibly marginal and therefore not worth my time, but I still would like the state to do what I would want it to do? I ultimatly don't care too much because the state will almost certainly never be particularly representative of my views. This isn't some radical new idea. https://www.princeton.edu/ceps/workingpapers/196farber.pdf

So "I'm to lazy to vote, but please do what I want anyway." Not worth my time, god damn. Take 30 minutes once every 4 years and cast your vote, how much time is that.

Your impact might be very little. The problem is a lot of people think like you and those votes together do make a difference.

 

[User 463088]

Just a casual observer of US politics so forgive is this is a dumb idea, but what are the chances that Hillary picks Bernie as her VP? Doesn't seem like there is a much bad blood between them and would be a good way to capture his very passionate supporters.

Very little, and not because of bad blood. He adds nothing to to the ticket, really. He's too old with her at the top. She'll pick someone younger, and someone who can better balance the ticket. (Although I know the rationale for ticket balancing isn't really great, but I still think it makes sense.)

 

[Tesseract]

So you're for Bernie and whatever his cause, up until he states that he's packing it in, and he says that his supporters should vote Hilary..

He can tell his supporters w/e, I ain't supporting bought politicians.

 

[Chris R]

Hate is a very strong word.

I don't hate Hillary, I just don't like her positions and policies enough to vote for her in a Presidential election. Living in a very red state means my vote for President doesn't matter in the first place. If there isn't a better candidate available among the third parties I'll vote for her, but it's a worst case scenario.

 

[theecakee]

Just a casual observer of US politics so forgive is this is a dumb idea, but what are the chances that Hillary picks Bernie as her VP? Doesn't seem like there is a much bad blood between them and would be a good way to capture his very passionate supporters.

I think Hillary would be all for that, because it logically makes sense.

Its more would Bernie do that is whats pretty low of a chance.

 

[ClosingADoor]

He can tell his supporters w/e, I ain't supporting bought politicians.

So you give half a vote to the other party. That's what it is if you don't vote in a two party system.

 

[ItIsOkBro]

Ok. Hillary scares me. Hillary supporters scare me. I believe she is a complete fake. She is absolutely politics as usual. That I feel that way must baffle some of you because you think I'm wrong for whatever reason, just as you supporting her is baffling to me. One of us is right and one of us is wrong.

This is Hillary and her stances (or is it? who knows!):

She voted for the Iraq war...but is now against.
She was against gay marriage...but now is for it.
She was against illegal immigrants...but is now for them earning a path to citizenship.
She voted for the Patriot Act. Twice. Hey some consistency!

And the list goes on. She is a complete fraud imo. And people don't care because Bernie is "unelectable" or can't get anything done or some other nonsense that you've been force fed.

My biggest problem with all this is how she often times refuses to recognize or acknowledge her past positions. I think she thinks that would hurt her. Instead she likes to pretend she was always against something or downplay her previous support or whatever. I would feel better about Hillary if she simply said I was wrong then and I'm right now.

 

[excelsiorlef]

This is actually an opinion of the matter. Do you think we are going to all of a sudden return to the dark ages if a Republican wins?

I see the same rhetoric elsewhere. "A Democrat CANNOT win", as if their freedoms will be in jeopardy. The whole thing is just ridiculous to me. Nothing will really happen except some money will shift elsewhere and some freedoms we enjoy (both liberal and conservative) will be eroded in the name of safety.

Reagan was a disaster that is still hurting the US to this day.

 

[gutter_trash]

If Hillary loses it won't be because of stubborn Bernie supporters, it'll be because of the low voter turnout for the Dems (down 33% so far compared to 2008) meanwhile the Republicans are up 70% in SC. I just don't see the Dems 3-peating in the White House, there's too much momentum against them and the party really needs new leadership on all levels

Also DNC did no favors with its shitty TV scheduling as well, but maybe a Trump ticket will get a few of the Obama voters back especially after he endorses Hillary

Not a factor

It is normal for voters to drop for a Primary season while there is an incumbent President of the same Party ending his 2 terms.

 

[hawk2025]

The demographics that "won't support bought politicians" from the left won't show up at election day, and incentives to appeal to them will have just diminished for the next cycle.


Congratulations, you played yourself.

 

[Cocaloch]

So "I'm to lazy to vote, but please do what I want anyway." Not worth my time, god damn. Take 30 minutes once every 4 years and cast your vote, how much time is that.

If I calculate the amount I think my vote will count and look at the value I place on certain policies being enacted it is simply not worth my time. Since the only thing I care about that have even the slightest chance of being acted upon are social equality issues. I've never lived in a swing state, and so it simply hasn't been a reasonable proposition for me.

Again I'm not calling you or anyone else stupid for voting, there are just social pressures that incentivize it that for whatever reason affect me little.

I feel like you care about my personal opinion on how to spend my time too much. By all means feel free to make your voice heard in the democratic process to make people like me vote through mandatory voting. I have a feeling that it would actually work out in my favor.

 

[Melkezadek]

He can tell his supporters w/e, I ain't supporting bought politicians.

So you would support Bernie, who if doesn't get the nomination, will support a bought politician?

There's a bigger picture here and even Bernie understands that.

 

[Ogrekiller]

And how does voting for the establishment that wants to continue the status quo solve this?

I understand your system. I understand the limited power your president has. I also understand what Bernie Sanders is trying to accomplish. He's trying to galvanize a voting base for not just 2016 but more importantly for 2018. He wants democrats and republicans to question their representatives and pushing their agenda instead of the donors. Your country needs a political revolution and there's only one candidate that's pushing it.

He's trying to put the power back into the voter. The issue is the voter is so discouraged and defeated in your country via the buying power and propaganda of the 1%, that they have stifled any chance of a political revolution. The issue is the voter. You guys are weak.

Americans tend to make jokes about the French and surrendering in WW2. But you know what? They don't get pushed over and they actually fight for their rights there. You guys don't anymore. You've surrendered. You've surrendered to the corporations of your nation.

Why did Canucks let Harper win for 3 straight elections? If Trudeau wasn't running as PM would you have voted NDP/Green and risk Harper winning a minority?

 

[Sobriquet]

He then went on this diatribe against her and ended it by stating if Trump got the presidency he would do so bad at it that the political revolution would be ensured.......

It's terrible logic. Sam Brownback got re-elected. Scott Walker survived a recall and got re-elected. In a blue state, no less.

 

[Brawly Likes to Brawl]

I'm still on the fence, but I cringe hard whenever someone says "Shillary" in earnest.

 

[HylianTom]

So you would support Bernie, who if doesn't get the nomination, will support a bought politician?

There's a bigger picture here and even Bernie understands that.

Tess and others are basically saying, "if I can't have Bernie's vision right now, here in 2016, I'm willing to screw over the chance that we ever get it for decades."

 

[Sobriquet]

I'm still on the fence, but I cringe hard whenever someone says "Shillary" in earnest.

Yeah. Killary is much better.

 

[Team Alucard]

I personally won't be voting for Hillary Clinton in November, although it has little to do with her and more to do with the Democratic Party at large. I actually really like Hillary Clinton, and I think she will be a great president, but a message needs to be sent.

I still hope that she wins, but I would like to see the race be contested far closer than it should be given the disaster of a candidate that Donald Trump is. Like Bush v. Gore close, but without the recount drama. I want Trump to get >65% of the White vote, for youth turnout to be non-existent, and for the Dems to fail to flip a single Senate seat beyond Wisconsin and Illinois.

The current Democratic Party is an abject failure outside of the presidential elections, and there needs to be a serious shake-up in regards to party leadership, starting by kicking DWS to the curb.

 

[Suikoguy]

I'm still on the fence, but I cringe hard whenever someone says "Shillary" in earnest.

That just means you are still sane.

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

tess and others are basically saying, "if I can't have Bernie's vision right now, here in 2016, I'm willing to screw over the chance that we ever get it for decades."

things must be pretty good if people are willing to do that!

I personally won't be voting for Hillary Clinton in November, although it has little to do with her and more to do with the Democratic Party at large. I actually really like Hillary Clinton, and I think she will be a great president, but a message needs to be sent.

I still hope that she wins, but I would like to see the race be contested far closer than it should be given the disaster of a candidate that Donald Trump is. Like Bush v. Gore close, but without the recount drama. I want Trump to get >65% of the White vote, for youth turnout to be non-existent, and for the Dems to fail to flip a single Senate seat beyond Wisconsin and Illinois.

The current Democratic Party is an abject failure outside of the presidential elections, and there needs to be a serious shake-up in regards to party leadership, starting by kicking DWS to the curb.

Man the things you read. Such contradictory goals.

 

[foxtrot3d]

You never responded to my statement on globalization. The US worker is not ready for that level of globalization due to poor social policies.

I won't disagree with that and that would be an argument against free trade deals I could get behind. Minimum wage is too low, health care is still not universal (note it doesn't need to be single payer), and educations costs are too high. The whole idea behind globalization is the fact that a post-industrial country can ship the jobs it no longer needs, low skilled labor, off to developing nations with cheaper wages. At the same time, we should be retaining and growing out industry of higher paying, high skilled jobs. But, if you're a line-worker and you're getting laid off how can you be expected to get retrained at a high skilled job or switch career paths if education costs are so damn high?

I can get behind social polices designed to combat this but I'm not going to pretend that Globalization isn't happening.

Bad for other countries. A bad precedent for everyone else in a globalized world who doesn't want corporations to have that much power. Particularly outside their own countries.

Okay? Why should an American care what TTP does to Australian copyright laws?

 

[Tabris]

Why did Canucks let Harper win for 3 straight elections? If Trudeau wasn't running as PM would you have voted NDP and risk Harper winning a minority?

I already answered this, I voted for Hedy Fry, Liberal MP as best candidate for my riding.

Canadians voted in Harper in for a decade poorly. Rural and suburban Ontario, Alberta, and Prairies held too much sway in the last couple of elections. None of this has anything to do with US politics though, and if anything, it shows that people can unite and change up.

 

[Darkgran]

This. Can someone on this board who says Trump will win please explain how?

Oh that's right you can't because its not happening....

I see no one has answered this yet. Sounds about right...

 

[Striek]

Clinton is, and has been since 2008, the presumptive followup to Obama, the enshrined establishment candidate and part of one of the biggest political dynasties America has seen. Her failures are as many as her victories.

Trump was, until recently, considered a joke candidate with no chance of gaining the nomination let alone the general election.

To me, these are important issues in themselves. The concentration of political power in America is a joke that is playing out very poorly on Americans, and Trump represents very real, very necessary change in the system. Bernie does to a slightly lesser degree (socialist atheist, very left by US standards), but we're assuming he is out in this thread.

It amuses me that people don't think that its possible to value these issues more than any others.

America will not burn if Trump is president. But it might change, and the democrats right along with it.

 

[LittleBoots]

So you give half a vote to the other party. That's what it is if you don't vote in a two party system.

This is exactly right, and why I worry so much over non-voters and hardcore Bernie fans that refuse to vote for Hillary if she wins the primaries. Our voting system is so fucked up that it's not about picking the candidate you like best. A ranking system would be so much better.

 

[ivysaur12]

I personally won't be voting for Hillary Clinton in November, although it has little to do with her and more to do with the Democratic Party at large. I actually really like Hillary Clinton, and I think she will be a great president, but a message needs to be sent.

I still hope that she wins, but I would like to see the race be contested far closer than it should be given the disaster of a candidate that Donald Trump is. Like Bush v. Gore close, but without the recount drama. I want Trump to get >65% of the White vote, for youth turnout to be non-existent, and for the Dems to fail to flip a single Senate seat beyond Wisconsin and Illinois.

The current Democratic Party is an abject failure outside of the presidential elections, and there needs to be a serious shake-up in regards to party leadership, starting by kicking DWS to the curb.

I don't even know what to do with this.

 

[Ryouji Gunblade]

Hate? No. Strong distaste? Yes. Dishonesty hurts all candidates, especially when its habitual and hiding corruption.

 

[Cagey]

If Trump does indeed win, the first question you should ask is why Clinton didn't appeal to the constituents needed to win the presidency.

Buy you know, it's always the candidates fault (Bernie not appealing to African Americans) until it's a candidate that you personally support. That's when the voters are the problem.

There's an issue with comparing a choice among similar candidates with important differences and comparing a choice among wildly different candidates.

That said... the point doesn't need to be perfect to be valid. Its certainly valid.

 

[Meowster]

I've noticed a lot of people on GAF that tend to actually hate Hillary (tend, not always) aren't usually from the US itself, which is even weirder to me.

 

[NomarTyme]

I don't hate her but I sure as hell don't want her to be PoTUS.

 

[ClosingADoor]

If I calculate the amount I think my vote will count and look at the value I place on certain policies being enacted it is simply not worth my time. Since the only thing I care about that have even the slightest chance of being acted upon are social equality issues. I've never lived in a swing state, and so it simply hasn't been a reasonable proposition for me.

Again I'm not calling you or anyone else stupid for voting, there are just social pressures that incentivize it that for whatever reason affect me little.

I feel like you care about my personal opinion on how to spend my time too much. By all means feel free to make your voice heard in the democratic process to make people like me vote through mandatory voting.

I'm not even American, do whatever you want, but this notion that voting for the person who will rule your country for the next 4 years is not worth your time is just baffling to me. How much time does it take to vote over there to even reach that conclusion.

 

[Gordon Shumway]

It's frustrating, and it's going to fuck me and other minorities/lgbt groups. A republican winning this election means we are done for 30 years. Pack it up. Finished.

We're in the same boat, and it's terrifying..

He can tell his supporters w/e, I ain't supporting bought politicians.

So I guess that other poster was right..y'all weren't voting anyway. I hope y'all are actually the minority like everyone else claims..I'm afraid it isn't true. Oh well..

 

[Tesseract]

If you don't vote for Hillary, prepare for 1000 years of darkness

 

[Tabris]

I won't disagree with that and that would be an argument against free trade deals I could get behind. Minimum wage is too low, health care is still not universal (note it doesn't need to be single payer), and educations costs are too high. The whole idea behind globalization is the fact that a post-industrial country can ship the jobs it no longer needs, low skilled labor, off to developing nations with cheaper wages. At the same time, we should be retaining and growing out industry of higher paying, high skilled jobs. But, if you're a line-worker and you're getting laid off how can you be expected to get retrained at a high skilled job or switch career paths if education costs are so damn high?

I can get behind social polices designed to combat this but I'm not going to pretend that Globalization isn't happening.

Yes, but you can fight against globalization until your economy and social policies are ready for the transition.

US is in a unique position where driving off business isn't as large of a risk. Most companies need the American consumer. Your government can use trade agreements and tariffs to balance this but the US corporations run your government.

 

[Cocaloch]

I'm not even American, do whatever you want, but this notion that voting for the person who will rule your country for the next 4 years is not worth your time is just baffling to me. How much time does it take to vote over there to even reach that conclusion.

I think the issue you're confused about is less how much I value my time and more how much I think my vote matters.

 

[Nipo]

He will appoint judges that will render Bernie's agenda dead. And not just for 2016. Corporate money becomes enshrined into our process; Citizens United stands for decades. The Voting Rights Act stays dead. Marriage equality goes on shaky legal ground via "religious freedom" bills. Corporations remain legal persons.

This does not poison the well of progressivism for just the next 4 years. This is for decades.

And - not shockingly - no one has countered this.

Trump is wrong about almost everything but he has been really critical about citizens united.

Hell if Trump nominated his sister we'd get a justice who is in favor of abortion, against citizen united and fights for gender equality.

 

[Darkgran]

So is anyone going to explain how Trump is going to win the election? Like seriously how does he get to 270?

 

[Suikoguy]

I'm not even American, do whatever you want, but this notion that voting for the person who will rule your country for the next 4 years is not worth your time is just baffling to me. How much time does it take to vote over there to even reach that conclusion.

No time at all in some states. You just sign up for a vote-by-mail ballot for free, and vote and mail. 10 minutes of your time.

 

[Arnie7]

I'd always vote for the most antiestablishment candidate. I love when elite politics get shaken up and disrupt the status quo. Change is good for democracy. The pendulum must shift to extremes before coming back to the middle centre point again.

Bernie > the rest >>>>>>Hillary>>Rubio

 

[Measley]

The Bernie supporters who say they're not voting in November truly baffle me. Why wouldn't you at least vote for your local officials, congressman and senator? If you're truly trying to begin a revolution, you need to start at the local level and work your way to the top. That's what the tea party did, and now we're on the brink of having a tea party president alongside a tea party dominated congress.