ClosingADoor
Member
But that's the thing. Enough people don't think their vote matters and don't show up, which makes them matter. If those people did show up, it can change things drastically.
The Amount of Hillary Hate Scares Me
- Thread starter LittleBoots
- Start date
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Tesseract
Banned
We're in the same boat, and it's terrifying..
So I guess that other poster was right..y'all weren't voting anyway. I hope y'all are actually the minority like everyone else claims..I'm afraid it isn't true. Oh well..
I've voted Democrat every cycle since I was 18, 30 now
Ogrekiller
Member
And before that?
Harper never won the popular vote. All the rest was split between the other 3 parties. It took a full decade and a Trudeau dynasty to kick Harper out.
Thank goodness the NDP and the BQ are dead in the water.
Seriously. I'm a Bernie-leaning dude myself, but I sure as hell will continue to push for whatever positive incremental change (local and federal) we can get even if he doesn't win the nomination. All this "don't vote" some supporters are messaging has me scratching my head.
I hope you change your mind in November. For pekes sake dude you are in IA. SMH
And in other states it requires you to take a day off work since you're in the office the entire time the ballots are open and your state doesn't allow absentee voting unless you're going to be out of the state.
You're considering Cruz establishment? He's more anti-establishment than Bernie.
Dice
Pokémon Parentage Conspiracy Theorist
I live in Nebraska so I doubt voting for Hillary would even help if Hillary was actually helpful.
Gordon Shumway
Banned
Didn't say you haven't, Julio..
Wait, so the US should leverage its market power as a country to the detriment of poor people in other countries to make itself, which is relatively much richer, better off?
Good Job Bob
Member
Hillary vs Trump
Does anyone know if there has ever been a GE between two candidates with such high unfavorables?
Does anyone know if there has ever been a GE between two candidates with such high unfavorables?
Suikoguy
I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
True, some states are shit when it comes to voting. But even Florida has mail voting for anyone. No requirements.
No, but as of now, Bernie is the only candidate running who's favorables are still above water. And who knows if that would even last if he were the nominee.
It already does, NAFTA, TPP. Iraq war, Patent laws, etc etc . We are run by corporations looking to turn a higher profit. It's The American Way®
Hoho for breakfast
Member
Vote for Hillary, or else!
Very tempting. Shall I have this shit sandwich or the dick mcmuffin? Ah, decisions decisions.
US politics are interesting and the threads clutter this board every few years. Also lets be honest, whomever leads the US is more impactful globally than whoever leads Australia|France|Germany|...
So we form opinions and share them, on a message board, and we're mostly coming from a place far more left than your average Americans experiences with politics, and with far more political activism I think.
Box of Kittens
Banned
The thing is, come November the choice won't be Clinton v. Sanders. It will be the Democratic nominee v. the Republican nominee. I will vote for the Democratic nominee despite my reservations about whoever it is because the alternatives on the Republican side are all terrible, because either will bring about some positive change, because control of the Supreme Court for the next several decades is at stake, and because I believe it will be easier to move the country's center of gravity to the left in the future with a Democratic president.
Right, but me showing up doesn't affect if other people do....
You're right that if this attitude didn't exist then things would be different. But it does exist. Whether or not I buy into simply doesn't affect elections because whether or not I buy into the attitude doesn't change whether or not other people do.
I'm not really sure what you're scared about here. Like, I can understand thinking she's fake. I can understand thinking she's "politics as usual", in some senses. "Complete fraud" is a bit strong, but sure, why not? I'm not seeing the connection to her being scary or to support for her being baffling.
Is the worry that as soon as she's sworn in she'll suddenly reveal that it's all been a ploy to get into power so that she could institute a flat tax and cut social security, and so on? This seems pretty unlikely. I mean, this would absolutely not be "politics as usual". Presidents - ordinary politician-type presidents - are pretty much always fairly predictable in terms of what policies they push for or similar.
It probably helps to understand the sorts of incentives that presidents have. Vague concerns about corruption are a lot less of an issue here. Presidents are under much more scrutiny than other politicians. They don't go work on Wall Street after they leave office. Mostly presidents seem to be motivated primarily by the desire to do a good job, or at least to be remembered well. Even bad people don't become president to get rich but to wield power - they're in it to feed their egos and not their wallets. There's room to be concerned about exactly whose good opinion they're worried about, but usually this is clear beforehand.
I think obviously the sort of legacy Clinton's looking to build would be as (1) the first woman to be president who (2) oversaw a progressive turn in US politics and (3) built on and protected Obama's accomplishments. She's interested in redeeming Bill Clinton's legacy, which she partly shares, by making clear that she's changed on certain issues that Democrats now don't like about Bill Clinton's administration. There's a lot of positioning to make the "Obama coalition" a permanent majority, there's a sense that on all sorts of social issues there's a "right side of history", etc. She can potentially create a liberal Supreme Court, solidify Hispanic support for the Democrats by picking fights over immigration, and marginalize Republicans as the party of racist white men through an increased emphasis on women's issues and African-Americans. She has to govern to Obama's left or she's going to be seen as betraying her constituency. This is how she gets remembered well. Even if you think she's pretty fake, surely what she wants is what Bill Clinton had around 2008 - universal love and admiration and a sense that this is what future Democrats should be striving to emulate. This is how she accomplishes that.
I think foreign policy is really the only place that one can reasonably be seriously concerned about how Clinton might betray progressives when in office. She's running as Obama's third term and she's got a lot of reason to govern that way too.
Snowman Prophet of Doom
Member
It's not just the establishment. Large swaths of the electorate do not want any socialistic policies other than the largely popular ones we currently have, and even those they want to greatly defund so that only the most extreme cases of hardship are covered, because anything more than that is seen as too expensive and as discouraging private charity and private enterprise. You can't make people desire any particular set of policies, only fight for them to the best of your ability. I completely agree that Clinton will not do much to move the needle away from corporate dominance of the political and economic system, etc., which I think is the biggest issues facing the human race at the moment, but things likely will at least not worsen under her, and some social ills might get better. If we take Congress in 2022, you could see a national bill to create a uniform standard to deal with police brutality. You could see a public health insurance option that can be used to eventually wean the country into a single-payer system, or maybe a multi-payer system like Germany has. You could see continued U.S. involvement in international agreements to toughen anti-climate change measures. The United States has a different culture and mindset from other European and European-derived nations, and leftist reforms have to be fought for inch-by-inch. I was willing to give Sanders a shot, because I think he could have represented the opening salvo in a more general pushback against the political establishment, but his inability to run even a competent primary campaign makes him a pretty bad candidate, whatever the virtues of his general policy thrust.
Most Americans like Obama, because he did what he could in a bad political climate. Hillary is campaigning on a being a continuation of that, and if people vote for her, it means that people are satisfied with that strategy. Smugly pointing to the European and Canadian political systems when A) they are partially built on America investing a great many of its resources into its military and effectively subsidizing defense for the rest of Western industrialized society, and B) those superior systems are not without flaws of their own, is just silly.
By any historical standard, they wouldn't. Favorables favor the unknown and new.
Glorified G
Member
What makes you say that? Is it the fact that he took loans from Goldman Sachs where is wife works for in New York Cirty? Or is it being a graduate from Harvard Law?
The fact that he hates government to his core, and everybody in government hates him, and that he wants to see pretty much every part of the government shut down (except for the military).
Taking loans and going to law school are pretty normal things for somebody looking to get into politics.
The Harvard thing isn't a fair point. Bernie went to Uchicago.....
ClosingADoor
Member
I am of the opinion that because it exists, you should turn up and even better tell your friends to do so also. Especially if you are part of a underrepresented demographic. I just don't get the mindset of not doing that and using excuses like "it doesn't matter" or "is not worth my time."
I can't vote for Trump for obvious reasons. He's vile. But, I dislike Hilary almost as much. And I say almost as much because I think Trump is like 75% an act. And this predates her running. She's so phony. At least more obvious than your typical politician... I know they're all phony to a degree.
Trump is obviously terrible, but I don't think he'll try to do half the shit he says he will do. He's more of a troll than anything else. I think he is surprised he's even gotten this far and is now just playing up being more of an asshole because it's getting him support.
Trump is obviously terrible, but I don't think he'll try to do half the shit he says he will do. He's more of a troll than anything else. I think he is surprised he's even gotten this far and is now just playing up being more of an asshole because it's getting him support.
plagiarize
Banned
All I see is someone getting more liberal as they got older. Which is actually surprisingly common.
How this is supposed to make me doubt that she's actually liberal, I don't know.
Your mistake is presuming that these same people would be pushing for the same policies if they were in another country and facing another party like, say the Tories in the UK. They wouldn't. If there already was an NHS, they wouldn't be pushing for a health insurance mandate. Etc. Etc. Etc.
Look at the *direction* they are taking or attempting to take us. It is towards the left. Undeniably.
That is not a good sign, you realise. You need to be able to articulate why people can't prioritise a different issue to you when you're arguing against them holding that position.
But U Chicago is part of the establishment!
They accepted $100 million from David Booth, who is part of Wall Street!
Surely we shouldn't be more nuanced in our positions!
ClosingADoor
Member
Not if that position is so utterly ridiculous that you are at a loss of words because of it.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Sure. But we don't know how President Clinton will atcually be so this all seems highly presumptuous. Honestly, the only and main reason I'm voting for her in the GE if Bernie goes out is SCOTUS.
Suikoguy
I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
Us Hillary Supporters even see possible faults, and this is one of them.
Her recent push into continuing "Obama's Legacy" is encouraging. That gets us things like the Iran deal, which can snowball into even more good like with their recent election. 40 out of 40 seats went to the reformists. Something I don't think would have happened without the Iran deal.
Obama is the very definition of pragmatic foreign policy, not idealist. Unfortunately that leads to pragmatic solutions such as over use of drone strikes because it keeps US Soldiers out of harms way. But being a pragmatist means that if foreign pressure or US public pressure to change away from drone strikes appears, that will likely change. An idealist would not change such a stance so easily.
She's 78, but from what I remember of her record, I'd take her in a heartbeat in that situation.
I'd honestly prefer Trump over the other GOP candidates since he's something of a wild card (compared to, say, a Rubio or Cruz, who'll put-up Scalia clones), but hoping for wild card picks when it comes to 25-30-year appointees still makes me incredibly queasy, especially when he goes on rants about how Roberts has been a suboptimal judge.
I'm glad you answered. With congressional gridlock as the most likely fate for anyone who's elected, SCOTUS is the pivotal issue of the election. Given how our system is set-up, all of this flowery talk of revolution and dismantling the establishment is really just feel-good frivolity.. bumpersticker thinking.
neurosyphilis
Definitely not an STD, as I'm a pure.
Yep, I'm 19 and can finally vote. Hillary and Trump just suck and Bernie and his supporters are delusional as hell. Not all his supporters, just the ones around my age. I probably won't vote.
It's not an excuse though. It's a conclusion I've rationally come to. I place a value on my time and act accordingly. In the same way I chose what to eat based on percieved value of the food versus cost I decide not to vote.This is in addition to the fact that I am not particularly partial to democracy, which is something that I think is necessary to the Civic Duty approach to why one should vote. Perhaps if I did I would be filled with democratic spirit and a belief in voting's goodness as such incentivizing voting for the sake of it.
excelsiorlef
Member
So basically you'll just help the racist right wing and more people should do the same, good stuff, whatever helps your principles sleep at night.
plagiarize
Banned
I don't know what Bernie will actually do when he can't make single payer health care happen and state funded college tuition happen and break up the banks... etc etc. Because he positions are too idealized to be achievable.
Stalemate.
Glorified G
Member
Vigilant Walrus
Member
Australia is a valueable trade ally and partner, and being you know- Actually progressive instead of opressive scumbags might be a better outlook instead of lobbying for corporate fuckery in others backyards! Something like that?
It's a bad pun, but the vitirol against her is more than justified. The Apolagetic rewriting of history revolving her is nauseating. She is championed for her experience, but she is excused from her political mistakes, and her compromises list of issues back and forth is completely inconsistent. She comes out for a issue when it is convenient.
You even see shit like this; http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jeffr...hs-about-hillary-iraq-war-vote_b_9177420.html
< The complete vindication spin on Hillary being completely innocent in her vote on the Iraq resolution. Now, that blog is written by a former Obama staffer, but it has to still be one of the most damming, morally compromised hogwashed pieces I have ever read. Absolutely disgusting revisionism.
Ralph Naders anger is oozing but aptly put;
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ralph-nader/hillarys-corporate-democr_b_9116450.html
https://youtu.be/e0OnOpgaAjg?t=11m31s
I still think you should vote for Hillary. You should. But nobody should have the illusion that she has historically been lobbying hard for some of the worst things that have caused so much grief to people around the world. The sort of tings you cannot forgive in a world leader. Particularly not when you have been on the wrong side of history so many times, as evident by the tons of "clinton is a liar" video compilations all over the internet.
That's the worst part. To see people desensitized and the still go off on her experience.
If America is going to abandon its military imperialism, Americans need to remember their history, and not re-write the history by acting clueless or like it is not the fault of so much death and chaos.
Her speech last night was A+.
Uhh did you read what I wrote? I was saying he wasn't making a fair point about Cruz being more establishment than Bernie based on schooling. I know full well that UChicago is part of the Elite though i would hesitate to call it establishment for various reasons related to its actual scholars.
No I got that, I'm saying Uchicago vs Harvard are comparable amounts of establishment. It doesn't make sense to use that as a point to a say he isn't more anti-establishment than Bernie.
Koch's get a lot of hate for a partisan group. Goldman Sachs put more money in politics than the Koch's and contribute to both sides. Now that is rigging.
Suikoguy
I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
What state are you in? Being in my 30s i'm not around a lot of Sanders supporters IRL, so I can only imagine. God forbid if you are in College right now. I'm glad I graduated a couple of years ago.
If you are in Florida or Ohio they both allow vote by mail for any reason. Both states are critical in the election.
Glorified G
Member
I wasn't saying this at all.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Pretty sure there's more he can do, especially on the topic of the drug war and prison reform. You act like those things are impossibility, especially if he has a Democrat House and new progressive seat members at SCOTUS.
You also forget the greatest potentiality of a Bernie presidency: it will make socialism a viable political ideology in America. Even if he loses the primary, his followers won't just disappear if we manage to do good work getting organized.
Brawly Likes to Brawl
Member
Too many voters think their job is done after voting for president
Suikoguy
I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
He can effect the federal prisons not state or county prisons.
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