Well you were saying they are either equal levels of anti-establishment or that Bernie is more anti-establishment. Either way bringing up Harvard doesn't seem to mean much.
The Amount of Hillary Hate Scares Me
- Thread starter LittleBoots
- Start date
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Well you were saying they are either equal levels of anti-establishment or that Bernie is more anti-establishment. Either way bringing up Harvard doesn't seem to mean much.
There's guaranteed to be other races on the ballot you plan to skip, ones that will likely have more impact on your daily life than the president will.
I think a response like this is utterly ridiculous in itself, and used in lieu of a rational argument for debate. Its weak, and affirming.
Unknown Soldier
Member
This is a good theory, except that nobody expected that George W. Bush would react to 9/11 by invading Iraq. He did something that was totally unexpected to everybody, including the people in his own party. I mean he even went against what his own father said a decade earlier about why the US shouldn't invade Iraq.
So yes, Presidents do in fact do things no one expects and sometimes the consequences are catastrophic. So I don't subscribe to this theory that Hillary is a known quantity and will behave exactly how we expect her to behave therefore it's safer to vote for her than say Trump who we have absolutely no idea how he will behave if elected President.
RageWaffles
Member
Don't forget that as Secretary of State she pushed for military intervention in Libya and she also backed a policy of detaining and deporting asylum-seeking children in order to "send a message" (a federal judge has since ordered that this policy be stopped because it may be unlawful.)
She's a total warhawk, and I'm not comfortable with her at all. However, I'll vote for her just the same as I would Bernie come November. (25% chance of voting Dem/Working Families; 75% of voting for Jill Stein again, I have that "privilege" because the only way NY would elect a Republican is if downstate is literally nuked. Much higher likelihood of voting Dem/Working Families if there's still a Supreme Court vacancy.)
excelsiorlef
Member
You're right they aren't, they're all worse, Reagan was worse, Bush Sr was about the same, and the new group are ten times more nuts.
googleplex
Member
Oh I'm sure YOUR America won't burn.
Hoho for breakfast
Member
She was like 55ish when she apparently thought all this. Now that she's 68 she's just gradually changed her mind on this many important issues? I don't buy it. I could see having a real change of mind on a thing or maybe even a couple but there's a whole list of things. I haven't changed that much since I was a kid, and I don't know anyone who has. It isn't normal to me and I feel like she's fake partly because of it. I don't know if it's money or votes or whatever else it may be, but I don't feel like her words and her actual thoughts/feelings match up.
Suikoguy
I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
Here is the ways you can vote by state, for reference:
http://www.ncsl.org/research/elections-and-campaigns/absentee-and-early-voting.aspx
http://www.ncsl.org/research/elections-and-campaigns/absentee-and-early-voting.aspx
Koch brothers 2016 election war chest is $889 million
A Human Becoming
More than a Member
Ugh I hate how the digital subscription to the Washington Post is so expensive. I don't want to pay $100 a year just to read their articles online.
Anyway, I agree with what the OP said, albeit maybe not all the criticisms. I wholeheartedly believe the vast majority of Bernie supporters will go out to vote for Hillary in the general. I've been saying for months that you can't generalize a vocal minority.
LittleBoots
Member
Jeffolation
Banned
This is rock solid stuff.
I was making the very simple point that the "establishment" brush being used during this election is exceedingly, absurdly wide.
googleplex
Member
Everything wrong with the American voter summed up in one low information post.
You live in Florida. VOTE.
excelsiorlef
Member
Same thing as voting for Trump really.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
If you're a Bernie supporter, and you think this is over if he loses the primary, then you're a fool.
If his socialism appeals to you, find local socialist gatherings and work at the local level.
Seattle's Kshana Sawant did that and helped get minimum wage for 15 in Seattle at the local level which has exploded into a national campaign for higher minimum wage. Opponents didn't take her seriously during her first election because she was a socialist, but last year they gunned for her on that pretense with masses of money and she still won.
The revolution is more than voting.
If you're not being active at the local level, you're going about it wrong.
If his socialism appeals to you, find local socialist gatherings and work at the local level.
Seattle's Kshana Sawant did that and helped get minimum wage for 15 in Seattle at the local level which has exploded into a national campaign for higher minimum wage. Opponents didn't take her seriously during her first election because she was a socialist, but last year they gunned for her on that pretense with masses of money and she still won.
The revolution is more than voting.
If you're not being active at the local level, you're going about it wrong.
Suikoguy
I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
He can register to vote BY MAIL online. It can't really get any easier.
Better than not voting.
Better
Voting for the party that has a chance of winning
Voting for the party that has no chance but matches your views closer.
Not Voting
Voting for the party against your views
Worse
If you're angry about this attitude then use your voice in the democratic system to structurally change how elections work so it's a moot point. Don't hold it against people for acting rationally within the bounds of a system.
This irks me.
I'm registered independent what I do with my vote is up to me. There's nothing in the constitution that says I have to vote for the most competent, which rarely get to begin with. I'm also black and tg at 32 years old with quite the life experience to inform on which polticians on trust if ever.
Real reasons why I hate hillary clinton and they are all valid.
1. Doma. For starters I don't want anyone to give me flack for placing what her husband did on her. She was pretty lock step in abusing their politcal marriage to her heart's content. This alone prevented me and plenty of people in the LGBT community from living out our lives as we want. Let me make it real had that law not been in place I propably could've had certain marriages at time in my life I was seeking too. I get it don't make liberals or progressive feel bad about hating on a polticial shill whose good at what she does for wanting more power.
2. BLM. She is two faced. We whine about republicans and treating obama. What ticks me off is black people won't vote for bernie cause they think he's a racist when her and husband literally started the birther movement. She only took interest in BLM well after the movement took and they actually confronted her. She is self serving and ambitious as any politcian but I say this and will continue to say this I trust and loathe people who make someone like mitt romney look authentic.
3. Again personal experience I know more about shadow banking than most others here and in the world I will stake my rep on it. I will use my family and dead dad estate eventually to pitch to most of this country as to how disgusting of a tool shadow banking is and how neoptism and complacency can you let you do things you wouldn't dream of normally. She hides behind her wall street friends and media establishment who won't paint the picture as to why someone like her is not to be trusted. I don't believe any of that crap about her scolding them, so what she made millions when a lot of americans lost jobs and their homes. She is gonna deal with fact that the banking collapse is a bigger conspiracy than 9/11 and no one got charged or broken up like sanders has been trying to remind people. It's pathetic she has no real plans or real changes that will change how most of the world was conned and then on top had corrupt governments reward banks that did horribly unethical business policies to say the least.
You asked for nuance there is mine.
Despite all that if trump really might have a shot I will vote hillary. I'm in WI so my vote might change stuff but we've going republican a lot more when it matters than anything in presidential election.
I'm registered independent what I do with my vote is up to me. There's nothing in the constitution that says I have to vote for the most competent, which rarely get to begin with. I'm also black and tg at 32 years old with quite the life experience to inform on which polticians on trust if ever.
Real reasons why I hate hillary clinton and they are all valid.
1. Doma. For starters I don't want anyone to give me flack for placing what her husband did on her. She was pretty lock step in abusing their politcal marriage to her heart's content. This alone prevented me and plenty of people in the LGBT community from living out our lives as we want. Let me make it real had that law not been in place I propably could've had certain marriages at time in my life I was seeking too. I get it don't make liberals or progressive feel bad about hating on a polticial shill whose good at what she does for wanting more power.
2. BLM. She is two faced. We whine about republicans and treating obama. What ticks me off is black people won't vote for bernie cause they think he's a racist when her and husband literally started the birther movement. She only took interest in BLM well after the movement took and they actually confronted her. She is self serving and ambitious as any politcian but I say this and will continue to say this I trust and loathe people who make someone like mitt romney look authentic.
3. Again personal experience I know more about shadow banking than most others here and in the world I will stake my rep on it. I will use my family and dead dad estate eventually to pitch to most of this country as to how disgusting of a tool shadow banking is and how neoptism and complacency can you let you do things you wouldn't dream of normally. She hides behind her wall street friends and media establishment who won't paint the picture as to why someone like her is not to be trusted. I don't believe any of that crap about her scolding them, so what she made millions when a lot of americans lost jobs and their homes. She is gonna deal with fact that the banking collapse is a bigger conspiracy than 9/11 and no one got charged or broken up like sanders has been trying to remind people. It's pathetic she has no real plans or real changes that will change how most of the world was conned and then on top had corrupt governments reward banks that did horribly unethical business policies to say the least.
You asked for nuance there is mine.
Despite all that if trump really might have a shot I will vote hillary. I'm in WI so my vote might change stuff but we've going republican a lot more when it matters than anything in presidential election.
It's not the Bernie supporters to worry about, it's getting the Obama voters that stayed home to help rally against the Trumplican momentum.
It's been a factor. Repubs were only down 7% in SC after their own rodeos in 2000/2008, meanwhile the Dems are down over 30% for theirs - that's bigger than normal. Momentum is all on the other side whether it's voter turnout or other metrics like media, and it'd be normal for a party to fail a 3-peat in the White House.
It's been a factor. Repubs were only down 7% in SC after their own rodeos in 2000/2008, meanwhile the Dems are down over 30% for theirs - that's bigger than normal. Momentum is all on the other side whether it's voter turnout or other metrics like media, and it'd be normal for a party to fail a 3-peat in the White House.
Damerman
Member
you need to watch a rubio speech.
Hillary is liberal as fuck socially.
However, it was not possible to be politically "for" many of these things at earlier times. You simply couldn't get elected. It was literally illegal for gay people to have sex in many states until 2003. We are seeing massive social liberalization changes due to the way the internet is connecting people with information and each other in ways that simply weren't possible 2-3 decades prior.
Part of being a politician is representing your constituents, and part of that is having to compromise on your own views and present policy positions that may not actually reflect your own ideals.
Ivysaur- David Brooks' column from today is really good on the subject of the "burn it all to the ground" types and the rise of authoritarianism on the right AND left. http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/26/opinion/the-governing-cancer-of-our-time.html
LittleBoots
Member
If you've seen one, you've seen them all.
Politics isn't about feeling good about yourself. It's about real people and real decisions that impact millions. Last time America voted for a bad president, there were two unnecessary and costly wars, continuous instability in the Middle East, and a complete meltdown of the global economy.
No more. If you support Bernie Sanders' vision for America and you actually think that there is no difference between Trump and Hillary, then you're committing a massive logical error, to the point of intellectual suicide. Think there's no difference? Here are some differences:
All these strike me as fairly relevant reasons why Hillary is better than Trump. Trump (or any of the other Republicans, really) getting elected will be a blow for the wellbeing of Americans and the interests of mankind in general, because we know that macho, racist, authoritarian egomaniacs don't make good leaders. Don't let a clown rule your country (and lead the free world) just because Hillary strikes you as phony.
Want to feel good about yourself? Go do yoga. Politics is about real outcomes and real people.
No more. If you support Bernie Sanders' vision for America and you actually think that there is no difference between Trump and Hillary, then you're committing a massive logical error, to the point of intellectual suicide. Think there's no difference? Here are some differences:
- Hillary isn't massively sexist, racist or homophobic.
- Hillary is not a buffoon that will make a mockery of the United States and democracy in general.
- Hillary doesn't deny climate change which might doom the planet.
- Hillary actually knows shit about the world and has experience relevant for the position of President of the United States of America.
All these strike me as fairly relevant reasons why Hillary is better than Trump. Trump (or any of the other Republicans, really) getting elected will be a blow for the wellbeing of Americans and the interests of mankind in general, because we know that macho, racist, authoritarian egomaniacs don't make good leaders. Don't let a clown rule your country (and lead the free world) just because Hillary strikes you as phony.
Want to feel good about yourself? Go do yoga. Politics is about real outcomes and real people.
Suikoguy
I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
Wait, are you insinuating he repeats himself?
Let's dispel with the notion that Marco Rubio repeats himself!
Your support of Sanity is appreciated.
Who is voting for the agreement.
How cute.
Mighty Chin
Banned
I never worry about the loudest and most vocal. They always come across as one step away from the street corner doomsayers.
I think it's pretty silly to disregard the idea of voting out of pragmatism.
I will be voting for Bernie on Tuesday, but I would much rather Hillary in office than anyone on the right.
My state has leaned very heavily left since Reagan, so if it's not going to be a close contest I would consider voting Green (to show support for something more progressive) but if there's any chance in hell that the Republican candidate could win then I would never dream of making the idealistic choice.
I understand the want to make a big statement, but use that energy and frustration to elect more progressive candidates at the state and local level. If there can't be a revolution I'd rather iterative progress.
I will be voting for Bernie on Tuesday, but I would much rather Hillary in office than anyone on the right.
My state has leaned very heavily left since Reagan, so if it's not going to be a close contest I would consider voting Green (to show support for something more progressive) but if there's any chance in hell that the Republican candidate could win then I would never dream of making the idealistic choice.
I understand the want to make a big statement, but use that energy and frustration to elect more progressive candidates at the state and local level. If there can't be a revolution I'd rather iterative progress.
It's fucking jarring that also a lot of those responses come from liberals and progressives.
Mighty Chin
Banned
Some people can't see beyond their own bullshit.
titiklabingapat
Member
It's right out of the Fox News and Republican playbook. I hope the young Bernie fans realize that.
Wow. Your post on DOMA is so full of revisionist bullshit that I can't take the rest of what you say seriously.
DOMA was a compromise! It was literally the only way to prevent Congress from trying to make gay marriage Constitutionally illegal. If that would've happened, SSM would've likely not happened for the next 50 years, in the most optimistic of chances.
He couldn't veto it. It had 85 votes. There was nothing NOTHING he could do. So please give me a fucking break.
Bill Clinton CAMPAIGNED on Open Service for gay members in the military, in 1992. Do you have any idea how ballsy that was back then?
But no, let's ignore context and politics of the times and throw them both under the bus.
dave is ok
aztek is ok
2013 is really really late to start supporting gay marriage
Cindi Mayweather
Member
It depends on the person and their history.
if you're black, IMO, you have a lot of reason to argue against a Clinton presidency.
If you're LGBT, IMO, you have a lot of reason to argue against a Clinton presidency.
Sweeping past history under the rug, like it's a clean slate now that she's appealing to these demographics does not erase that just a few years ago, she was the enemy of most LGBT people.
Then there's socialists who view her as a part of the establishment and bad for progress.
Then there's those who abhor her war record.
I fall in all of these camps.
But I'll still vote for her in the GE if it comes down to it. Doesn't change my feelings on her though. Don't like her at all.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Inspector Jones
Member
I'm not voting for Hillary if she's the nominee; and her die hard supporters scare me. No she won't destroy the country, but her winning the election is going to insure that the status quo is upheld which I'd still chalk up as a major loss. Sanders has the message that I think helps most Americans and myself and that's why I'm casting my vote from him when the primaries come next month. I don't care how unlikely it is that any of his policies get enacted, a Bernie win would send a strong and clear message what millennials wan't from their congress and country. I But if Bernie can't drive millennials out to vote, I don't know who can.
Come November, I'm either voting down ticket and writing in Bernie or voting for Jill Stein.
EDIT:
The anti-establishment appeal is strong to me, but not the most vital issue. In general, I'm just tired of feeling like my country puts the interests of it's people second to big business and suits. It's why I find Hillary completely unappealing as a candidate because while she would do some good in her office, I just know that the really progressive change a large percentage of Americans want is being denied to us because there's so much money invested in keeping things the way they are. This is why I kind of admire Trump in a way, if only because he's breaking the narrative of the GOP by bashing GW Bush, talking about not making cuts to social services, and saying positive things about planned parenthood. I'd rather have Trump running then any of the other republicans. It's too bad about all the xenaphobic statements and platforms he runs on.
Come November, I'm either voting down ticket and writing in Bernie or voting for Jill Stein.
EDIT:
The anti-establishment appeal is strong to me, but not the most vital issue. In general, I'm just tired of feeling like my country puts the interests of it's people second to big business and suits. It's why I find Hillary completely unappealing as a candidate because while she would do some good in her office, I just know that the really progressive change a large percentage of Americans want is being denied to us because there's so much money invested in keeping things the way they are. This is why I kind of admire Trump in a way, if only because he's breaking the narrative of the GOP by bashing GW Bush, talking about not making cuts to social services, and saying positive things about planned parenthood. I'd rather have Trump running then any of the other republicans. It's too bad about all the xenaphobic statements and platforms he runs on.
EnthronedReaper
Neo Member
Hi gaf!
I personally dislike Hillary, not because of the hate being spread by the media or whoever, but because I'm salty. I'm salty that last presidential nominee I will ever agree with was probably Barack. Bernie is my boy and he is what I believe politics should be all about.
And for me when i see shit like this https://mobile.twitter.com/kylieatwood/status/704042334468579328/photo/1
Personally I'm offended that now her supporters are gonna believe she thought of that quote. And many other ideas that sanders may have brought forth and won't get credit for
My answer may be a little incomrprehensive but that's because it's from the heart. I really dislike how Hillary is the default nominee.
I personally dislike Hillary, not because of the hate being spread by the media or whoever, but because I'm salty. I'm salty that last presidential nominee I will ever agree with was probably Barack. Bernie is my boy and he is what I believe politics should be all about.
And for me when i see shit like this https://mobile.twitter.com/kylieatwood/status/704042334468579328/photo/1
Personally I'm offended that now her supporters are gonna believe she thought of that quote. And many other ideas that sanders may have brought forth and won't get credit for
My answer may be a little incomrprehensive but that's because it's from the heart. I really dislike how Hillary is the default nominee.
This SO much. The revisionist history and lack of context regarding many decisions made by such politicians, like Hilary, in the past is just upsetting.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Contact your local socialist group for meetings on organizing as well.
There's a difference between disagreement and hyperbolic vitriol. *shrug*
Have you never used Twitter before?
You're offended that Hillary retweeted Bernie and then something that has not happened?
There was no fear of a constitutional amendment back in 1996, to be fair.
Here is the ways you can vote by state, for reference:
http://www.ncsl.org/research/elections-and-campaigns/absentee-and-early-voting.aspx
I'm glad I'm in one of the 3 states that does it right. Fuck leaving the house to vote.
ClosingADoor
Member
Ehm... it's a retweet. The name Bernie Sanders is right there in big letters.
Holy shit, dude, it's a retweet.
It says it *right there*.
If anything, it's the exact opposite by retweeting him instead of posting extremely similar thoughts right after in other words. A retweet gives direct credit to the way he put it.
- Status