...Scatter...
Banned
I need new hardware. Please be real. I'm totally disillusioned by sub 1080p 60fps after seeing so many awesome games on the PC run buttery smooth with it. To think of how awesome Gears 4 could be on new tech.
Kotaku: Sony is working on a PS4.5; briefing devs on plans for a more powerful PS4
- Thread starter shinobi602
- Start date
opticalmace
Member
The more I think about this the more I am okay with it.
Ninja Sharingan
Banned
Does this mean I can play until dawn again at a steady framerate? If so I'm out of ps vr abd in on this
Psychological Intellect
Banned
0coolclimate0
Member
This is kind of how I feel. I don't like the idea of having to fork out more cash for essentially the same product but it would solve that issue. I can swing either way, once I see a price.
Depends if the game was built to use every ounce of resources available, or designed to use only a specifc amount/type of resources.
Let's look at this seriously. It's been 2.5 years since Sony released the PS4. There is an accessory being released for the PS4 practically at the 3 year milestone that the PS4 will not have enough power to support to it's full potential. There also happens to be a set of technologies (16nm FINfet, HMB2, Zen) for AMD, who is the console manufacturers hardware provider, right around the corner that will vastly improve the capabilities of hardware that have been stagnating for a long time. If Sony were to release a piece of hardware before this upcoming cornerstone, we would be looking at a +30% increase in capabilities (compared to PS4) assuming a "similar" power envelope is maintained. Clearly not enough for 4k or really VR for that matter. After this cornerstone we are looking at a +225% uptick (again compared to PS4) maintaining the same power envelope. That is still iffy for 4k, but would be pretty spot on for PSVR specs.
Here I would like to note that this cornerstone will initially take place (with it's earliest entrants) late this year / early next. This will leave Sony with about 5-6 months to determine demand for new hardware to support this console priced accessory and finalize designs while leaving enough time for manufacturing to attempt to repeat their PS4 launch in November of 2013 with the "PS5" in November of 2017.
In order for Sony to attempt to push such a tight deadline VR would have to be defining point of their business, so much so that it drives PS4 sales. We are talking an early Wii status success. I don't believe VR will hit that critical mass so quickly and even if it does the consensus will be crying wallets.
Bottom line: At most this is just Sony doing tests on new potential hardware (early R&D for the new tech the PS5 will use) particularly in case VR explodes. We won't be seeing yearly or excessively iterative consoles. Manufacturing and programming/content creation for consoles simply couldn't support the constant moving of goalposts.
Here I would like to note that this cornerstone will initially take place (with it's earliest entrants) late this year / early next. This will leave Sony with about 5-6 months to determine demand for new hardware to support this console priced accessory and finalize designs while leaving enough time for manufacturing to attempt to repeat their PS4 launch in November of 2013 with the "PS5" in November of 2017.
In order for Sony to attempt to push such a tight deadline VR would have to be defining point of their business, so much so that it drives PS4 sales. We are talking an early Wii status success. I don't believe VR will hit that critical mass so quickly and even if it does the consensus will be crying wallets.
Bottom line: At most this is just Sony doing tests on new potential hardware (early R&D for the new tech the PS5 will use) particularly in case VR explodes. We won't be seeing yearly or excessively iterative consoles. Manufacturing and programming/content creation for consoles simply couldn't support the constant moving of goalposts.
Here's what I'm expecting from this:
-Built around the new HDMI spec with 4k output support
-Movies and the OS level stuff will all support native 4k
-High quality 4k upscaling (or some sort of reprojection) or most PS4 games, some 2D titles will be able to run in native 4k.
-Slightly faster CPU/GPU that could lead to improved load times or steadier framerates, nothing huge. Developers have the option of utilizing them more fully but few will.
-Improved wi-fi
-Improved SATA to take better advantage of faster hard drives
-Quiter fans
It'll be a bit more than a standard revision but not a drastic change that would make older PS4 adopters feel cheated.
-Built around the new HDMI spec with 4k output support
-Movies and the OS level stuff will all support native 4k
-High quality 4k upscaling (or some sort of reprojection) or most PS4 games, some 2D titles will be able to run in native 4k.
-Slightly faster CPU/GPU that could lead to improved load times or steadier framerates, nothing huge. Developers have the option of utilizing them more fully but few will.
-Improved wi-fi
-Improved SATA to take better advantage of faster hard drives
-Quiter fans
It'll be a bit more than a standard revision but not a drastic change that would make older PS4 adopters feel cheated.
amstradcpc
Member
Yeah and now imagine XBOX 2.5 launching pitha Polaris 10...
In with position from a matket point of view would that PS 4.1 leave Sony?.
Please tell me you are joking.
wapplew
Member
For real, x86 tech doesn't grow that much compare to ARM.
30% better can't even turn 1080p 30 into 1080p 60, maybe 30fps with drop to stable 30fps.
It's basically a PS4 slim with some extra improvements in areas they cheaped out in with the initial release and would allow for better marketing power in the future since it's "4k ready". Old PS4 is discontinued and replaced with this one, similar to Nintendo's handheld iterations.
What meme graphical issue will people talk about then?
Well, it happened to portables before but consoles? I don't remember that.
It's definitely more than just a refresh.
You're right. I should have clarified that it was more like a handheld update.
No I'm speculating until we get the real answers
Maybe the move to 14nm will allow them to clock the GPU to 1.6Ghz & use all 20 CU's that would be 4.09 Tflops without needing a new design.
Double that up with a second apu and there ya go. 4k gaming.
Closed box at 4tflops would get you 4K games.
This is not speculating, this is making wild guesses, based on, well, I don't even know what it's based on.
That's largely due to arm being able to continue shifting process nodes.
Dropping to 14nm would have no assurance of reaching a stable 1.6 Ghz {which would likely require liquid nitrogen cooling (which still wouldn't reach 4TFLOPs [which still wouldn't be enough for 4k {even in a closed system}])}.
wapplew
Member
Yes, that's why quick iteration work for mobile but not for console.
jeff_rigby
Banned
Most games are not using the True audio hardware and other accelerators that are not found on older PCs but are in some AMD APUs and dGPUs. This is the issue that AMD hopes the XB1 and PS4 will help overcome. It's not going to make a huge difference when they do but enough that pushing to get to 1080P 60 HZ frame rates will be easier.
Yes these Xtensa accelerators are what I have been talking about for almost two years. The will be used to double the frame rate from 60 to 120 for VR and to convert the image to that easily used by VR goggles. For camera input they process the video for depth and can provide the OpenVX - Portable, Power-efficient Vision Processing. The accelerator can also be used to up-convert from 1080P to 4K or downconvert from 4K to 1080P.
Given that the VR goggles will be used to view commercial movies, all the processing for the goggles MUST be done in the southbridge TEE just before HDCP encryption in that same TEE not the GPU. That's just another confirmation......
Bitch Pudding
Member
Well, get in line, then.
I think you may be up to something, there.
The way people talk about the virtue of a one and only spec is like they forgot how the PS3 consistently got unsatisfactory performing games from third parties. Or the performance of PS4 games like Knack, AC Unity, Fallout 4, Just Cause 3, Broforce and more.
Degree of 'optimization' has a lot more to do with budget and time constraints than there being one or two specs to develop for.
Are current PS4 users going to quit console gaming because 3rd party titles are going to also come out for NX, thus taking attention from the PS4 version?
Did Xbox One players abandon the console when MS introduced the Elite controller and defied the 'level playing field' belief?
Degree of 'optimization' has a lot more to do with budget and time constraints than there being one or two specs to develop for.
Are current PS4 users going to quit console gaming because 3rd party titles are going to also come out for NX, thus taking attention from the PS4 version?
Did Xbox One players abandon the console when MS introduced the Elite controller and defied the 'level playing field' belief?
If it's a 4-5 year iteration then it's essentially a console generation. The issue people are taking is with the idea that these iterations are coming in ~3 year cycles or thereabouts, largely in part because of the terrible name that is a .5 console, 1.5, 4.5, whatever, that brings an immediate association and assumption with it. You cannot blame anybody for having that assumption that this will be less than 4-5 years because it doesn't make sense that it would be the length of a console generation and not simply be called the next generation of console.
Consumers generally do not care what's under the hood of a console outside of the nebulous power it brings to run their games, but they care a hell of a lot about drawing lines between different product offerings when it comes to these devices. PS5 can have the same architecture as PS4 and just be more powerful and allow a higher threshold for fidelity, draw distance, what-have-you, but the distinction needs to be made that it's a new generation with higher expectations of its games graphical quality and presentation or the branding will be muddled with questions like 'why 4.5 and not just PS5'. This happened with the Wii U.
Stilton Disco
Member
This will never happen. 60fps has to be targeted by the developer, and they could (and obviously many do) do that now with existing hardware. Simply having better specs would lead to better visuals at 30fps.
The fact is, most people don't give a shit about 30fps vs 60fps, and it's a damned hard differentiator to advertise with. Looking pretty on TV, at the cinema and in screenshots is what sells games to the masses.
A PS4.5 would likely mean at best 60fps games with dips on the standard PS4 would be locked, otherwise you'd just be looking at the same 30fps game with maybe more effects.
thekiddfran
Member
This will just confuse consumers.
Maybe they will just upgrade the hardware and stop producing the original PS4. Just have one model going forward
Maybe they will just upgrade the hardware and stop producing the original PS4. Just have one model going forward
Simply Sami
Member
Not really.
Do iPads confuse consumers? Do iPhones 6 or 6 plus confuse consumers? Does the edge or s7 confuse?
Also they won't stop producing the original PS4. Why would they do that? It's selling and they could lower the price. Whilst keep the newer model at the normal price.
ChaoticBlue
Member
once you are used to playing games near or at 60fps on PC, you don't want to go back to 30fps.
Ninja Sharingan
Banned
Here here. I already am starting to feel like my ps4 was a waste of money. I want to know what the actual plans are and I can decide if their content output warrants the upgrade
The 28nm R9 370X is already clocked at 1.18Ghz
20 CU's clocked at 1.6Ghz would be 4Tflops & yes it would be enough for 4K in a closed system.
The R7 370 can run BF4 at 4K 25FPS with just a little over 2TFLOPS
what make you think that a PS4 with 4TFlops couldn't do 4K games?
I don't think people even think about it. iPad games are typically free or around a fiver. If you buy one and it doesn't perform well in your device no big deal. If they cost 40-60 quid a pop I reckon people would care about the confusion.
Ninja Sharingan
Banned
Most people don't even know about performance they just think it plays weird or it was chap. From over 10 years experience in ganes retail.
Dragon Puncher
Member
That's my take as well. It seems like this will be heavily targeted towards people with 4K TV's.
ArcaneFreeze
Member
Look at Wii -> WiiU DS -> 3DS -> n3DS. There was definitely a lot of confusion even when it was a generational leap. Nintendo had to completely phase out the original 3DS and 3DSxL models for n3DS to get its foothold.
iPads/iPhones don't confuse consumers because iterative upgrades are the normal in the mobile industry, theres already precedence set that has been built on years and years of marketing and sales, so its expected for there to be multiple SKU's of the same exact product. Also majority of the time these products are released at the same time. iPhone6/6+, Galaxy 7/7Edge all came out at the same time or within the same time frame hence consumers already knew that there was more than one version of the base product.
The gaming market, aside from Nintendo handhelds, are not used to iterative upgrades, theres a stigma that when you buy a console its an investment for years to come. And even when there are iterative upgrades aka Nintendo Handhelds the market does have confusion. Even to this day now we have people questioning if each new game that releases on 3DS is n3DS exclusive or not, when Hyrule Warriors Legends and Monster Hunter Generations were announced people had no idea whether or not there OG 3DS's would still be viable for these games. Thats the type of confusion caused. Phones are not primary gaming machines, the mass market that buys these yearly iterative upgrades on their phones are not buying it to get the best performance for their games, compatibility is not an issue for consumers 99% of the time. Majority of people will upgrade to the new iPhone just to have the "newest" thing or for the new features like a fingerprint scanner or live photos. There is no external factor that phones need to rely on. Consoles are reliant on there games to be successful and adding an external factor such as game compatibility between products to the equation only adds to the confusion.
In order for iterative upgrades on home consoles to be successful the entire market has to follow through, meaning Microsoft and Nintendo both. Otherwise it'll just be a consumer mess.
If this is true, it sounds like a pretty big kick in the dick for early adopters and even more so for people who bought one in the past 6 months.
It just sounds like a fantastic way to piss off the customer base that put them back on top this generation. Especially if it does a whole lot more then the previous "revisions" (psone, slims etc).
Going to be really disappointing if it heads the way of the N3DS; where games start requiring the new hardware or have features locked to the new models.
Because if it's significant enough, it's basically Sony doing a 3-4 year console generation.
It just sounds like a fantastic way to piss off the customer base that put them back on top this generation. Especially if it does a whole lot more then the previous "revisions" (psone, slims etc).
Going to be really disappointing if it heads the way of the N3DS; where games start requiring the new hardware or have features locked to the new models.
Because if it's significant enough, it's basically Sony doing a 3-4 year console generation.
neurosisxeno
Member
And an R7 370 also uses 140-180w of power at full load, which is way more than Sony has access to in a confined space. You're also ignore the amount of heat that thing would generate. This is intended to be a set-top box which means modest cooling at best, and an R7 370 overclocked 40%--something which is unheard of--would basically turn your idea for a PS4.5 into a hot, loud, power hungry, monster of a system that nobody would want. You'd have to OC that GPU so far, that it would end up consuming nearly 250w which is just not reasonable.
That's not even considering that they want this as an APU most likely, and there's almost no chance AMD can squeeze something like an R7 370 on-die with an 8-core Jaguar package.
LOL
bobawesome
Member
That's a pretty poor example, considering it has a grand total of what, two or three titles that are New 3DS exclusive, all of which exist elsewhere.
And what features, 3D for Hyrule Warriors and SNES emulation? The original 3DS is incapable of either. In the case of Hyrule Warriors, the game runs extremely poorly on the older models and 3D would've slowed things to a crawl. As for the SNES games, for good emulation, the hardware doing the emulation has to be many times more powerful than what is being emulated. The 3DS was outdated when it came out five years ago. There are videos showing how well these games run within the emulation environment when the CPU is changed to the clockspeed of the original model. Spoiler alert: it sucks.
While I don't like the idea of iterative models of the same system, some of you are straight-up delusional if you think Sony is going to suddenly turn heel on tens of millions of PS4 owners.
Maybe it's cheaper to keep iterating and you have the bonus of better performance. Jaguar CPUs can't be that popular surely so Sony and Microsoft are paying to keep them being made as an example which might be more expensive in the long run. So AMD are moving onto new stuff, use this instead. Bargain.
Why pay 150 bucks for an old APU when you get a much better one for a similar price years later. I think we are stuck imagining old gen PS2 levels of a price drop with new models. I think hardware prices are more stable now, you can only go so far with cost reduction. PS3 and Xbox 360 didn't go that low because the parts were still quite expensive.
Why pay 150 bucks for an old APU when you get a much better one for a similar price years later. I think we are stuck imagining old gen PS2 levels of a price drop with new models. I think hardware prices are more stable now, you can only go so far with cost reduction. PS3 and Xbox 360 didn't go that low because the parts were still quite expensive.
ZehDon
Member
Er... people were confused by the 3DS, 2DS, 3DS XL, New 3DS, New 3DS XL and the Wii U. Because consoles aren't mobile phones. A better question to ask is if the original 3DS owners are happy that they can't have SNES emulation? Are the Xbone early adopters happy that they were forced to pay for Kinect when later adopters weren't? Now imagine how happy PS4 owners would be at this prospect. In addition to the console-priced peripheral in October.
Here is the answer Sony. 4 year upgrade model. 8 years generation shift
November 2013 - PS4
November 2017 - PS4.5
November 2021 - PS5
PS4 will be forward compatible with PS4.5. All PS4 Games run on both PS4 and PS4.5. There is no confusion as games will still be boxed as PS4 Games. PS4.5 will act as the PS3 Slim of this generation. If will have the same marketing cycle where it's announced not too long before release. The advantage of it is running games on a higher setting save for a few notable VR games that will be exclusive. PS4 owners won't get the shaft as all games will be forward compatible and are jot required to buy this. And for people who feel that the generation goes on for too long and need something new can upgrade every 4 years.
Now when the PS5 releases. All PS4 Games will be backwards compatible. However PS4.5 will not be forward compatible as this will be a true generational shift. Consumers won't get confused as games will be boxed as PS5 games.
November 2013 - PS4
November 2017 - PS4.5
November 2021 - PS5
PS4 will be forward compatible with PS4.5. All PS4 Games run on both PS4 and PS4.5. There is no confusion as games will still be boxed as PS4 Games. PS4.5 will act as the PS3 Slim of this generation. If will have the same marketing cycle where it's announced not too long before release. The advantage of it is running games on a higher setting save for a few notable VR games that will be exclusive. PS4 owners won't get the shaft as all games will be forward compatible and are jot required to buy this. And for people who feel that the generation goes on for too long and need something new can upgrade every 4 years.
Now when the PS5 releases. All PS4 Games will be backwards compatible. However PS4.5 will not be forward compatible as this will be a true generational shift. Consumers won't get confused as games will be boxed as PS5 games.
You ignore the fact that 14nm would use less energy & would need less cooling.
also the PS4 GPU is basically the same as what is in a R9 370X but it has 2 CU's turned off & the R9 370X is 3Tflops clocked at 1.18Ghz
wapplew
Member
This I could get behind.
But I still think PS4.5 will make PS5 feel less impactful and more customer will play waiting game hence slower adoption rate, ultimately hurt PS5 in the long run.