Batman v Superman Spoiler Thread: Don't believe everything you read, Son

Status
Not open for further replies.
Ultimately both Batman and Superman are plot stupid. In a similar fashion, Lois is plot smart or clairvoyant. Essentially though its just poor writing/and or poor editing/direction.

Lois has been a walking plot device in both this and Man of Steel.


Also, while I am not a huge DC guy, I have read hundreds of comics featuring Batman and/or Superman over the years, and never really made the connection that both of their mom's are named Martha until this film :P

I suppose Supe's mom is called Ma Kent more often than not, so maybe that was part of it.
 
Is it really "combat" when you're flying down on a plane unannounced and gunning everyone down in the entrance? That's the sort of casual murder which I think we can do without, especially in a film which is already so bleak and heavy handed with talk of rage, revenge, and hopelessness.
Pretty much, old school Batman would have using a gas bomb and grabbed Martha. Snyder Batman is like "meh, too lazy .. just gonna kill them all."
 
Initial thoughts from the first half of the film:

This is a dumpster fire in virtually every sense of the term. I'm not even sure I know where to begin with this, but I'll try.

Man of Steel. I know it has its flaws (and there are quite a few - it's oddly-paced at times, leaves that dangling destruction question unanswered and has a few bizarre character moments), but I enjoyed it just the same. Hell, I've defended it at points, and I've always pointed out that Clark was just starting out and doing the best he can to contain the situation that occurs during the film's climax. I considered it to be a decent starting point for a sequel or further adventures.

But this? Oh, Christ...

Let me start with the obvious. The film is badly edited. It might be the most poorly-edited theatrical cut of a film I've seen since Kingdom of Heaven. It's even worse than I thought it would be going in. There is no cohesiveness or interconnectivity with any of these scenes. No establishing shots. Just a series of rapid-fire setpieces that continues through the first half of the film. One minute, we're at a lab in the middle of Metropolis. The next, a fight club in Gotham. Then, to the Daily Planet offices. Then Luthor's study. Then we launch into a dream sequence that segues into Bruce in the present, and then onto Lois out somewhere interviewing the general from the first movie. If there's one element above all else that kills the flow of the film, it's the editing.

Tonally, it's all over the place. I'm not just talking about the "darker and edgier" look, but it veers from cartoony to ultra-serious in the span of minutes. We're asked to believe that the world that was slowly built up in MoS is now not only filled with meta-humans, but has a vigilante who's introduced hanging on a wall near a guy he's branded, said vigilante having a dream that rolls right from apocalyptic to campy science-fiction, and sandwiched in-between all this is a weird antagonist who's deliberately over-the-top(?) and espionage/journalism subplots.

The first twenty minutes are admittedly pretty damn good, and the film feels like a logical follow-up to the previous installment. Then, things start getting weird - we see Bruce stuck on the wall in the background while a police officer is investigating a crime scene. Lois somehow found a bullet that got... lodged in the journal she was carrying. Luthor has the capability to carry out a hit in Africa using private contractors/terrorists, but gets so incensed about not getting a permit to obtain Kryptonite that he decides to bomb a Senate hearing.

Most damning of all is Clark. What happened to this guy? The man who said, "I've gotta find a job where I can keep my ear to the ground, where people won't look twice when I want to go somewhere dangerous, and ask questions." This time around, Clark has turned into Mr. Downer. A guy who walks around with a perpetual frown on his face, who has apparently become obsessed with promoting his alter-ego in the Daily Planet and gets into arguments with Perry White over it. It's not even clear why White hasn't fired him yet, as they're constantly arguing about whether Clark should cover sports or Superman.

Affleck as Bruce Wayne is fine. Nothing spectacular and nothing that really sets him apart from Bale's version, but the way his Batman is introduced and is characterized is fucking bizarre. As said before, he's first seen hanging off a wall at a crime scene, and the next time we see him is in his future/dream incarnation where he demonstrates his moves. His Batmobile just seems to come out of nowhere, with no setup or reveal. He straight-up mows a guy in the back of a vehicle down with a minigun at one point. There's hardly anything about his character that feels organic. It feels like a screenwriter had a bunch of boxes they had to check on a list to establish the character, but they forgot about making it believable or well-integrated in the plot.

Every few minutes, there was something pulling me out of the film. FutureFlash and his fucking ridiculous spacesuit. The whole Knightmare scene. Cavill looking nonplussed as the Senate room burns down around him. Perry's rants on the media being irrelevant and "looking on Dropbox" for Clark's copy (and probably written by a screenwriter who has a superficial understanding of journalism). The giant bat dream (shades of Batman Forever's notable deleted scene). The musical beats that kick in when Lex is walking into the crashed Kryptonian ship and Bruce sees the old photo of Diana. That goofy fucking haircut on the General Zod corpse.

I could see this working as an AU/Flashpoint-type film, but the way the film is presented and plotted out is all over the place. I'll give my thoughts on the actual Bat/Supes fight and last half sometime later.

This post nails it

Agree 100%

Such an awkward film and it could have at least been a Mediocre one if it was edited properly
 
I still can't get over how great the first 30 minutes is. Masterful stuff that Miller da gawd himself (who is producing the justice league movie) would be proud of.

Re: ending.
The ending makes it possible for Batman to no longer be the cruel man he had become as a result of whatever had happened between him and the joker. Whereas the Joker had changed him for the worse, Superman brought him back. That's what Superman is supposed to do.
As far as set ups, that's telling us a lot about this Batman.

But it also tells us a lot about Superman. This superman wasn't really superman until the end of this movie.He went from a man who believed he was superman (in the last movie), to a man who realised that the truth was that he wanted to become superman, which didn't automatically qualify him to be superman. He didn't know how to go about it, and his efforts have been failing constantly. The only way he could become the superman he aspired to be was to do it in a different way. The superman the world needed in this movie wasn't the guy who fought these aliens, but the man who could inspire the world in a different way.

This movie created the Superman we wanted in Man of Steel.
 
Is it really "combat" when you're flying down on a plane unannounced and gunning everyone down in the entrance? That's the sort of casual murder which I think we can do without, especially in a film which is already so bleak and heavy handed with talk of rage, revenge, and hopelessness.

Strafing run on goons is a very Burton thing to do.
 
Alright doomsday was fun, I liked Lex but thought he was more like a joker. Louis was annoying as fuck, Superman to dark, Bat fleck was fantastic. I wasn't rally a fan of the cameos really especially with aquamans( for fuck sakes put him in two minutes when he was on posters and everything...)
Continuing on I was side batman so seeing supes get his ass kicked was fun.
 
I still can't get over how great the first 30 minutes is. Masterful stuff that Miller da gawd himself (who is producing the justice league movie) would be proud of.

Re: ending.
The ending makes it possible for Batman to no longer be the cruel man he had become as a result of whatever had happened between him and the joker. Whereas the Joker had changed him for the worse, Superman brought him back. That's what Superman is supposed to do.
As far as set ups, that's telling us a lot about this Batman.

I agree with this completely.

But it also tells us a lot about Superman. This superman wasn't really superman until the end of this movie.He went from a man who believed he was superman (in the last movie), to a man who realised that the truth was that he wanted to become superman, which didn't automatically qualify him to be superman. He didn't know how to go about it, and his efforts have been failing constantly. The only way he could become the superman he aspired to be was to do it in a different way. The superman the world needed in this movie wasn't the guy who fought these aliens, but the man who could inspire the world in a different way.

This movie created the Superman we wanted in Man of Steel.

But I seriously disagree with this. I don't think there was anything really heroic about him grabbing the spear and stabbing Doomsday with it. It wasn't any sort of change in his character or a satisfying epiphany. He did it because he really wanted to beat Doomsday, and being content that he has protected Lois yet again, he grabs the legendary weapon to slay the dragon at whatever cost because that would be a macho and cool thing for a guy to do in front of his girlfriend. Snyder's Superman hasn't changed, and you know, even though the Knightmare sequence is pointless, the Flash does say "You were right about him, you were always right." Which suggests that in Snyder's mind, this Superman is a selfish champion who does good because it is what the people he cares about expect from him. If Lois and Martha are taken from him, so will his morality.
 
This movie didn't create the Superman we wanted. It killed him.

Superman, the Superman we wanted, was on screen for about 45 seconds. The one who dived into the water to get the instrument needed to kill Doomsday, even as it slowly kills him. The selfless Superman.

Otherwise he's just this awkward alien. Apparently he was disappointed in himself that he couldn't find the bomb, but you wouldn't think that from the way he delivers his lines. He just seems depressed. Apathetic. When the bomb goes off his expression is "Urgh, of course this happens" instead of "Fuck, who can I save?" or seething anger at mass killing.

He's a character Batman has every reason to want dead until he actually dies.
 
Superman, the Superman we wanted, was on screen for about 45 seconds. The one who dived into the water to get the instrument needed to kill Doomsday, even as it slowly kills him. The selfless Superman.

He wasn't selfless. He was getting the spear because Lois was trying to get it. It's not enough for him to save his girl, he also needs to get what she wanted too. It's Lois. It's always Lois. She is his world.
 
lmao the face he made was more like "aww man they fucked up my lunch order" rather than "god damn I let these people die"

i think like duckroll said snyder's superman is completely tethered to martha/lois. it's selfish heroism. the minute they die he has nobody to impress and who knows what he's capable of then. snyder might hate superman...

justice lords coming up...
 
He wasn't selfless. He was getting the spear because Lois was trying to get it. It's not enough for him to save his girl, he also needs to get what she wanted too. It's Lois. It's always Lois. She is his world.

lol

I won't let you ruin the one redeeming moment in this film's portrayal of Superman for me.
 
lol

I won't let you ruin the one redeeming moment in this film's portrayal of Superman for me.

To be honest, if you want that vision of Superman, there's a much better glimpse of that when he's punching Doomsday into space, and he turns and sees the nuke coming, but keeps doing it anyway to ensure they both get hit. That was a pretty solid scene.
 
I don't think that anything in this film convinced me that Snyder really gets superman beyond his powerset and a more realistic idea of what super-powered beings fighting in an urban setting would look like from the perspective of regular people (compared to what we get from Marvel/Fox).

Even in Miller's cynical as shit The Dark Knight Returns, you get glimpses of what makes Superman Superman. I didn't really see much of that on display on BvS.
 
About how Batman is portrayed:

I did see some the Dark Knight Returns (the comic book) influences in this movie (Like how Thomas Wayne tried to fend of the criminal, the Batarmour in the fight against Superman, Affleck being a somewhat older Batman), but why didn't Snyder go with that particular Batman? TDKR was walking a fine line of hero/villain because Bruce was older, more disappointed in society and was really violent to send a message. Not killing anyone, but breaking bones was something Bruce was willing to do. Even in his fight against Superman in the book he never enjoyed it, but he felt it was needed bcause Clark was blinded by how he was just an errand boy for the US government.

I would have liked that Batman in BvS. Breaking bones and doing everything he can to reach his goals, but never so eager to fight Superman and even kill him.
 
I don't think that anything in this film convinced me that Snyder really gets superman beyond his powerset and a more realistic idea of what super-powered beings fighting in an urban setting would look like from the perspective of regular people (compared to what we get from Marvel/Fox).

Even in Miller's cynical as shit The Dark Knight Returns, you get glimpses of what makes Superman Superman. I didn't really see much of that on display on BvS.

i love that so much though. we've had maybe 50 cities reduced to rubble in all these films and this is the first time it's actually horrific.

even disaster movie directors can't nail that either. it was so good and it's one of the major things that has me still discussing this movie (aside from the ambitious ideas within it). but yeah his idea of superman as a selfish person only tethered to earth by the women in his life is scary. that aint a hero that's gonna work going forward.

edit: in fact, it parallels dr. manhattan in watchmen a bit too much.
 
I don't think that anything in this film convinced me that Snyder really gets superman beyond his powerset and a more realistic idea of what super-powered beings fighting in an urban setting would look like from the perspective of regular people.

Even in Miller's cynical as shit The Dark Knight Returns, you get glimpses of what makes Superman Superman. I didn't really see much of that on display on BvS.

Miller's Superman in TDKR was a Superman who hated what the world had become, even as he realized that he himself could not change. There was frustration. That was resentment. It was Superman being tortured because he was in a Miller story.

Snyder's Superman is a Superman who was born and bred to coexist in a Miller inspired world. It is a fan's ultimate fantasy of realizing the What If scenario of Superman being created by someone like Frank Miller instead.

That's how I see it anyway.
 
To be fair, Burton's Batman came from the campy 60's TV show so he was going all out to make him look cool.
We have not had campy Batman in awhile so I makes little sense to try to make him so dark and broody.

I don't think that's a good excuse - people just didn't care as much if the movie adaptation wasn't a 1:1 comic book match in 1989. You'd just be happy to see a comic book adaptation on the big screen. They have much higher standards today. But love it or hate it, it's part of the batman legacy, quite a prominent part of it for people of a certain age. It's a deviation from the last movie version because they made a very big deal out of the no-kill rule - although Batman does selectively interpret that to kill Ras by negligence in Begins, lol. Kinda funny thinking about that compared to the next film where he saves Joker from falling, although there's no ethical difference between Joker falling because of Bats and Ras being trapped on a train which is derailing because Batman telling Gordon to blow the train tracks.
 
Clark wasn't selfish at the end, he literally says that this is his world and we have a montage of him saving people outside of because well Lois wants him too.

Lois herself is irrelevant to the scene because Clark took doomsday up into the sky and was willing to scrafice himself to that Nuke not for his mother or Lou's but to protect the Earth from such as threat.

If Clark was the selfish hero you guys paint him as he would have ripped Batman apart and been done with it.
 
How do we think it became apparent to the world that Supes was dead? Did Batman sneak out the body then drop a press release? Leave the suit somewhere?
 
He's a government lackey in TDKR. I wouldn't go that far.

Ya, but he has reasons for being a government lackey in TDKR (and says as much).

Miller goes all in with the fascist stuff in the shitty sequel, but Superman had some defensible motives for doing what he did in the original.
 
Personally, I prefer to talk about stuff I liked about this movie rather than the stuff I didn't like. Mainly that's because the bad shit is obvious and will be said a billion times. All I could really say is that I agree.

So with that in mind I just gotta say: I liked Luthor.

I liked the lines, I liked the performance, I liked the characterisation. The thing is, I'm not really sure why. I really liked the dynamic in both the party scene and the rooftop scene that he seemed to have with everyone around him. The way he stumbled through his speech was just as interesting to me as the way he presented himself to Superman. Every time he showed up was fun to me.

His finally scene with Batman was pretty dumb though.
 
I agree with this completely.

But I seriously disagree with this. I don't think there was anything really heroic about him grabbing the spear and stabbing Doomsday with it. It wasn't any sort of change in his character or a satisfying epiphany. He did it because he really wanted to beat Doomsday, and being content that he has protected Lois yet again, he grabs the legendary weapon to slay the dragon at whatever cost because that would be a macho and cool thing for a guy to do in front of his girlfriend. Snyder's Superman hasn't changed, and you know, even though the Knightmare sequence is pointless, the Flash does say "You were right about him, you were always right." Which suggests that in Snyder's mind, this Superman is a selfish champion who does good because it is what the people he cares about expect from him. If Lois and Martha are taken from him, so will his morality.
You've just taken my recollection of the ending and destroyed the positive feeling I had of it. I must have been projecting the good stuff he was doing when he took Doomsday in to space and what happened up there with the nuke, because that was most definitely Superman.
 
i love that so much though. we've had maybe 50 cities reduced to rubble in all these films and this is the first time it's actually horrific.

even disaster movie directors can't nail that either. it was so good and it's one of the major things that has me still discussing this movie (aside from the ambitious ideas within it). but yeah his idea of superman as a selfish person only tethered to earth by the women in his life is scary. that aint a hero that's gonna work going forward.

Ya, I think this was maybe a 5/10 for me, but that MoS fight from Bruce's perspective is one of the better scenes to appear in a comic film.
 
And Jesus fuck, that JL cameo scene is terrible. You interrupt the rising tension of Clark being forced to go off and fight Bruce against his will (and after viewing those unsettling pictures of Martha bound and gagged), and then it cuts to a marketing reel showcasing the origins of half its members.

At least the Bats/Supes fight is pretty good.
 
Lois probably just took the exclusive scoop to boost her career.
Lmao


Other thought is if we think Lex also had Knightmares like Batman. And that's why he goes (more) crazy/thinks something is coming. Or the ship, which is somehow about 37% functional, warned him of something.
 
I do laugh at how that guy was holding a fucking flamethrower to Martha. She's a defenseless old lady, a gun would have been fine with taking her down.

Lol right. I also loved how in the batmobile sequence this guys just kept pulling out these gigantic guns. Gatling guns, homing missiles etc. Couldn't help but giggle at the absurdity of it
 
If I'm not mistaken I read some reviews and articles how its humorless making it sound like a bad thing.
I've read some of the reviews and honestly, while I always believed that DC to be more serious cape books, I can understand why some people are turned off by it's grim tones. I don't think they're expecting jokes and quips, but cracking a smile (the characters are unable to be happy) seems to be an enormous chore for these characters.
 
And Jesus fuck, that JL cameo scene is terrible. You interrupt the rising tension of Clark being forced to go off and fight Bruce against his will (and after viewing those unsettling pictures of Martha bound and gagged), and then it cuts to a marketing reel showcasing the origins of half its members.

At least the Bats/Supes fight is pretty good.

It was sort of funny that Batman decided to take a nap at his computer because the decryption was taking to long.
 
Ya, I think this was maybe a 5/10 for me, but that MoS fight from Bruce's perspective is one of the better scenes to appear in a comic film.

The first 20 minutes had me convinced the film would be good. There were great scenes.

Then the just starts trying to do too much, and doing a lot of things badly. The focus at the beginning of the movie should have been maintained; this is about two superheroes being opposed to each-other.
 
Lex Luthor was hilarious.
Batman showing up at his cell was top batman shit. That's Batman showing up out of nowhere and disappearing. That's terrifying.

Then Eisenberg does his hilarious Riddler improv, and I literally laughed out loud in the theatre.
 
Yep. After two days of reflection, I love it too. It completely subverted my expectations of what it was going to be, the tone was relentlessly intense and I applaud Snyder for holding tight to his vision and not making a cookie cutter film. These characters are developing, slowly, but they are. I totally understand why Supes isn't the big blue Boy Scout yet. It makes sense in this world they have created.

I love that Terrio has attempted to show real consequences for all of these super hero exploits. The opening 20 minutes was utterly brilliant.

I cannot wait for the longer cut, I'm hoping that the release of that will allow these characters more time to breathe on film and hopefully temper some of the absolutely hysterical critical reaction this movie is getting. I find it really sad that Ben Affleck is on Fallon warning people that this isn't a movie for critics. He was simply brilliant in this and should be proud of his take on Batman.

Agreed with you and the guy you quoted 100%. I honestly hope no last minute changes to JL are made whether it be Snyders own choice due to neg feedback from BvS or forced upon by the studio. I want Snyders vision for Justice League realized on film, even if it is for one more movie.

And yea, bring on the extended cut.
 
does anyone else feel like having the Batman v Superman angle kind of ruined what this film could have been? how good would it have been to have something like this?

you could still have some suspicion between the two but instead of Batman basically hating Superman for 2/3's of the film and then suddenly have the conflict resolved in 10 mins....maybe have them work together to take down Lex

they could be saving that for the Justice League i hope
 
Perhaps the catalyst for all of these issues I have is that everything so far implies that this Batman is just bad at doing detective work, and that gets me a lot. If this was the Batman I'm familiar with, he would have known more about Superman/Clark Kent than anyone (including Lex), and he would have understood the situation, obviously critical of the way Superman handled it, but he certainly wouldn't think that Superman was malicious or somehow evil and intending to conquer the world. He'd probably not even call him Superman but instead just freak the fuck out of him by referring to him as Clark Kent. That's Batman. This Batman just seems as though he doesn't do any research at all and gets angry really quickly at the wrong people.

Oh and he'd also be aware of Superman's super hearing, because that's what Batman does- he knows his shit.
http://neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=193187871&postcount=322
I'm still disappointed by this being the case.
 
Man I loved that Essinbergs Luthor was a Mad Scientist and not a lame real estate mougel who dabbles on the side.

It seems like there was some mixed context between Lex in the Archive and the end saying Darksied is coming.
 
Batman had Superman subdued and planned to kill him in cold blood until Lois stepped in. This film's portrayal of Batman has serious, unforgivable (to me) problems.
But he didn't kill Clark once he was humanized to him, that's the point. He didn't think of Superman as a person before that, rather a creature or monster ("you aren't a god and you were never a man!").
 
does anyone else feel like having the Batman v Superman angle kind of ruined what this film could have been? how good would it have been to have something like this?

you could still have some suspicion between the two but instead of Batman basically hating Superman for 2/3's of the film and then suddenly have the conflict resolved in 10 mins....maybe have them work together to take down Lex

they could be saving that for the Justice League i hope

They didn't even discover eachother's identities in a cool way. Superman overhears Bruce talking to Alfred and Batman... doesn't care? Or knew all along? Or only finds out at the end?
 
I almost forgot about the heat-seeking, from 0 to launch in 30 seconds, space nuke.

Fuck this film, man.

Such a terrible idea (among several.) It's like something out of a parody of a Roland Emmerich movie. This movie got an extra 9 months of production. The phrase you can't polish a turd is so applicable here.
 
Pretty much, old school Batman would have using a gas bomb and grabbed Martha. Snyder Batman is like "meh, too lazy .. just gonna kill them all."
A gas bomb? Really? It's obviously a reference to TDKR. Snyder loves his Miller.

ibelieveyou1.gif

That goofy fucking haircut on the General Zod corpse.
lol

They didn't even discover eachother's identities in a cool way. Superman overhears Bruce talking to Alfred and Batman... doesn't care? Or knew all along? Or only finds out at the end?
Bruce doesn't actually reveal his identity? Only that he's up to no good. Clark obviously finds out about his identity later when they fight.
 
Maybe I'm missing something (not a sports fan) but towards the beginning of the movie when they're panning across TV's, one has ESPN on. I noticed it said Metropolis St (state) at the score banner on the bottom. Was that a post-production mistake? I thought in the Superman/MoS universe Metropolis was always just a city. Would be really bizarre to have a college named Metropolis State.
 
does anyone else feel like having the Batman v Superman angle kind of ruined what this film could have been? how good would it have been to have something like this?

you could still have some suspicion between the two but instead of Batman basically hating Superman for 2/3's of the film and then suddenly have the conflict resolved in 10 mins....maybe have them work together to take down Lex

they could be saving that for the Justice League i hope

They could've done a Batman and Superman movie a million different ways. Sadly they chose an awful way of doing it. It's all about the fight. The entire plot of the movie is setting up the fight. Planning and creating excuses for these two to bump heads against each other.
 
Maybe it is because i was expecting a turd but i think the movie was not that bad, just average. Yeah, the direction is a mess at some parts, Eissenberg's Lex is an awful characterization and some scenes are ridiculous (Lois drowning, Diana at the hotel, etc), but the rest was good enough.
 
Maybe I'm missing something (not a sports fan) but towards the beginning of the movie when they're panning across TV's, one has ESPN on. I noticed it said Metropolis St (state) at the score banner on the bottom. Was that a post-production mistake? I thought in the Superman/MoS universe Metropolis was always just a city. Would be really bizarre to have a college named Metropolis State.
Metropolis is based on New York City.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom