Batman v Superman Spoiler Thread: Don't believe everything you read, Son

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duckroll said:
I want to point out something really funny about Snyder's vision of parenting in the DC films. It was something I mentioned in the DC Community Thread the other day about how Pa Kent's "maybe" response to "what should I have done, just let them die?" in Man of Steel. It bothered me because while it might have been a human moment of weakness for Pa Kent, just having that in the movie says something, and it's not positive.

Now in BvS, we have Batman saying some pretty amazing shit about HIS parents. First, to justify his suicidal crusade against Superman, he reminds Alfred that his father taught him that the first generation of Waynes weren't industrialists, they were HUNTERS. Okay, that's actually a pretty good scene on its own, but the funny part is how it leads into what he says later when he's really fucking Superman up. YOU KNOW WHAT MY PARENTS TAUGHT ME? DIE IN A GUTTER FOR NO REASON AT ALL. IF YOU WANT TO MAKE SENSE OF THE WORLD, YOU HAVE TO FORCE IT TO. He might just be saying this out of a moment of rage, but to say that about his parents who he loved so much, that they taught him nothing positive about self worth... that's pretty amazing.
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Man... Bats is broken as fuck in this film. What if this is all a genius set up to introduce Tim Drake?
 
The second half is marginally better than the first, if only because it's basically one long fight scene. There's a lot of explosions, it's hard to see anything at times, and they're fighting a creature that looks like a cross between a Cave Troll from LOTR and the Newborn from Alien: Resurrection.

Diana's reveal during the final battle did nothing for me. I'm almost certain that a number of scenes explaining who she really was and her name were cut, because we're just expected to go along with the fact that she's using all her signature weapons (and works in tandem with the other two heroes) without any setup or explanation.

Lois throwing the spear into the lake, then having to get it again a few minutes later, was really dumb.

They couldn't wait ten fucking minutes before invalidating Clark's "death". That has to be some kind of record. Even the comic arc waited three months before revealing that he was alive. Why even put that in there in the first place?

If they're going to go forward with this universe, just do solo Batman films. The fight scene in the warehouse was probably the best part of the film.
 
duckroll said:
I want to point out something really funny about Snyder's vision of parenting in the DC films. It was something I mentioned in the DC Community Thread the other day about how Pa Kent's "maybe" response to "what should I have done, just let them die?" in Man of Steel. It bothered me because while it might have been a human moment of weakness for Pa Kent, just having that in the movie says something, and it's not positive.

Now in BvS, we have Batman saying some pretty amazing shit about HIS parents. First, to justify his suicidal crusade against Superman, he reminds Alfred that his father taught him that the first generation of Waynes weren't industrialists, they were HUNTERS. Okay, that's actually a pretty good scene on its own, but the funny part is how it leads into what he says later when he's really fucking Superman up. YOU KNOW WHAT MY PARENTS TAUGHT ME? DIE IN A GUTTER FOR NO REASON AT ALL. IF YOU WANT TO MAKE SENSE OF THE WORLD, YOU HAVE TO FORCE IT TO. He might just be saying this out of a moment of rage, but to say that about his parents who he loved so much, that they taught him nothing positive about self worth... that's pretty amazing.
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You know, as messed up as it is, I actually really like this now that you've bought it up. For both Superman and Batman, their parents-- fathers specifically, really did a number on them and it makes sense in a way to see who they are as adults. They're not idealized or even that good of men to begin with because they weren't taught to be from the get-go. Sure they do try to be superheroes, but they're so liberal with how they deal with threats instead of sticking to a strict moral code as we're used to seeing them. Batman resorts to harsh means first like his father, and Superman is just kinda apathetic, like Pa Kent.

If that makes any sense...
 
duckroll said:
No, I think what happened was Superman flew in, took out the warlord, rescued Lois. When the reinforcements arrived and saw the warlord presumably dead or crippled or whatever, and all his men dead, they cleansed the nearby village in retaliation.
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Maybe. I feel it's still poorly written.

I imagine Senators would have wanted to talk to Lois about what happened — she was there after all — but she was to busy examining a bullet in her bathtub.

This movie treats logic with such disdain.
 
kswiston said:
Death of Superman was a shitty marketing event from the start. Let's not treat it like it was sacred ground.
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It was a bad comic (although I do enjoy the Reign of the Supermen storyline) but it was a stupid idea to play that card in the second Superman movie of this brand new universe. It would have had much more impact down the line. Now, there won't be a sense of danger when Superman fights Darkseid or Brainiac, we already know he came back from the dead once.
 
Sgt. Kabukiman said:
The entire point of the scene in TDKR is that Batman stops himself from killing at the last second and the Joker is disappointed that he couldn't make him break his no-kill rule.
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Alandrus Sun said:
Maybe I'm remembering that overrated Miller comic but from what I recall he snaps the Joker spine, paralyzing him. Even at the brink he refuses to break his one rule but goes up right to the edge to ensure the Joker can't harm anyone ever again. It's the Joker that snaps his own neck to frame Batman with his murder.
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The parellel I want to draw is the scene where Batman rescues Martha. He doesn't kill the Russian. He shoots the gas tank, the Russian tries to use it and blows himself up. Before that scene, you see a henchman trying to use a grenade. Batman hits him, he drops the grenade and kills himself. He isn't the psychopath people think he is.
 
ghostwritingduck said:
Can someone explain to me why Superman fought Batman instead of just saving his mom?
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Because he didnt knew were she was, and had less than an hour to find her?

Im interested anout how much Lex learned about the upcoming danger, and he made it sound that they have been watching and the presence of Superman kept them away.
 
It's bizarre how diametrically opposed the Lois rescue scenes are in this and MoS. In the latter, Lois is falling from a ship, Clark sees what's happening and kicks into overdrive as this badass cue plays, and she freaks out as he struggles to carry them away from the vortex. After this is done, they share their first kiss and it's a somber, but triumphant, moment.

Here, she gets pushed off a building by Lex. She freaks out for a couple moments, and then Clark hovers underneath her as she falls and stares at her before picking her up and setting her down. Then he's just like, "It's cool, I got this" and flies off. It's so tonally off.

It's definitely one of the most bizarre superhero films I've ever seen. I'm still on the fence as to whether it was truly bad or just a really mixed bag.
 
Firemind said:
The parellel I want to draw is the scene where Batman rescues Martha. He doesn't kill the Russian. He shoots the gas tank, the Russian tries to use it and blows himself up. Before that scene, you see a henchman trying to use a grenade. Batman hits him, he drops the grenade and kills himself. He isn't the psychopath people think he is.
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He kills a dude shooting at him with a minigun during the car chase, by shooting back. His actions also cause a few more explosive deaths in that chase.

He murders the guards stationed outside of where Ma Kent was being held with the Batwing. Is it their faults for cars bring explosive, then?
 
crazyrabbits said:
It's bizarre how diametrically opposed the Lois rescue scenes are in this and MoS. In the latter, Lois is falling from a ship, Clark sees what's happening and kicks into overdrive as this badass cue plays, and she freaks out as he struggles to carry them away from the vortex. After this is done, they share their first kiss and it's a somber, but triumphant, moment.

Here, she gets pushed off a building by Lex. She freaks out for a couple moments, and then Clark hovers underneath her as she falls and stares at her before picking her up and setting her down. Then he's just like, "It's cool, I got this" and flies off. It's so tonally off.
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By this point He is so used to save her that it has become rutine, just like any Superman cartoon there is.
 
Spehornoob said:
Movies like Batman And Robin/Batman Forever/The Fantastic Four aren't good movies, but they at least try to have a little fun. This movie was dour and joyless, and lacked any character depth or thematic exploration to make it interesting otherwise.
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Wow, dude, I didn't think it was a great movie either, but I wouldn't go that far.
 
Caja 117 said:
By this point He is so used to save her that it has become rutine, just like any Superman cartoon there is.
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I think the problem is that they try to play it up as a dangerous situation, but it comes off as half-assed. It's not so much that he's used to saving her, it's the bizarre way he just kind of hovers under her for a few moments. There's no tension or drama during that confrontation she has with Luthor.
 
Firemind said:
The parellel I want to draw is the scene where Batman rescues Martha. He doesn't kill the Russian. He shoots the gas tank, the Russian tries to use it and blows himself up. Before that scene, you see a henchman trying to use a grenade. Batman hits him, he drops the grenade and kills himself. He isn't the psychopath people think he is.
Click to expand...

The more disturbing scene for me was actually the chase scene when he's trying to steal the kryptonite. He's violently killing a lot of people (it's never shown explicitely of course, but those cars get absolutely destroyed) just to steal something from some criminals he doesn't really know anything about. They're not holding an old woman hostage and threatening to kill her, they're just henchmen.

I disliked the gas tank scene because it was a poor attempt at shoehorning a Frank Miller moment in a completely different context. Snyder did that way too much in this film.
 
crazyrabbits said:
The second half is marginally better than the first, if only because it's basically one long fight scene. There's a lot of explosions, it's hard to see anything at times, and they're fighting a creature that looks like a cross between a Cave Troll from LOTR and the Newborn from Alien: Resurrection.

Diana's reveal during the final battle did nothing for me. I'm almost certain that a number of scenes explaining who she really was and her name were cut, because we're just expected to go along with the fact that she's using all her signature weapons (and works in tandem with the other two heroes) without any setup or explanation.

Lois throwing the spear into the lake, then having to get it again a few minutes later, was really dumb.

They couldn't wait ten fucking minutes before invalidating Clark's "death". That has to be some kind of record. Even the comic arc waited three months before revealing that he was alive. Why even put that in there in the first place?

If they're going to go forward with this universe, just do solo Batman films. The fight scene in the warehouse was probably the best part of the film.
Click to expand...

Oddly enough, I preferred that scene in the trailer. The music in the movie was just stupidly loud during that.
 
Alienous said:
He murders the guards stationed outside of where Ma Kent was being held with the Batwing. Is it their faults for cars bring explosive, then?
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He promised Clark he would save his mother and he's running out of time. Do you really think he'd be that naive to let goons casually shoot his plane in that situation? What if they have rocket launchers again? This whole sacred no-kill rule people have is ridiculous.
 
Henkka said:
Oddly enough, I preferred that scene in the trailer. The music in the movie was just stupidly loud during that.
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Same here, that scene was incredible in the trailer but did nothing for me in the movie itself. I think I was too emotionally disconnected from anything that was happening at this point. It should have been Batman's introduction scene.
 
Firemind said:
He promised Clark he would save his mother and he's running out of time. Do you really think he'd be that naive to let goons casually shoot his plane in that situation? What if they have rocket launchers again? This whole sacred no-kill rule people have is ridiculous.
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It's ridiculous and it's Batman.

You can have him killing but you're betraying the character.
 
Henkka said:
Oddly enough, I preferred that scene in the trailer. The music in the movie was just stupidly loud during that.
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Yeah. And some of the music themes were awful IMO. Wonder Woman vs Doomsday sounded like Snyder had played a little too much Final Fantasy. The guitar blew my ears out in IMAX.
 
crazyrabbits said:
I think the problem is that they try to play it up as a dangerous situation, but it comes off as half-assed. It's not so much that he's used to saving her, it's the bizarre way he just kind of hovers under her for a few moments. There's no tension or drama during that confrontation she has with Luthor.
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Huh? This is a comic book movie, characters are going to put in dangerous situations that are not really dangerous because they are most likely going to survive, is up to the viewer on how he take this.
 
To be fair Comedians
funeral
was one of the best scenes in Watchmen
(And it even used the same Simon & Garfunkel song as sadfleck)
 
Firemind said:
He promised Clark he would save his mother and he's running out of time. Do you really think he'd be that naive to let goons casually shoot his plane in that situation? What if they have rocket launchers again? This whole sacred no-kill rule people have is ridiculous.
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It's a movie. Yes, the no-kill rule makes no sense in the real world. But comics and superhero movies are fantasy. The writer can just make it so that the goons don't have rocket launchers. Or make the Batplane have some stealth mode so they don't even notice it's approach. Nothing necessitates Batman going in guns blazing, except the writers and directors wanting to make it so.
 
Firemind said:
Then every live-action Batman film has betrayed the character.
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To varying degrees, yes. Whether that's a 'Bat-credit card' or murder.

It's just that Batman killing in BvS, direct and explosive deaths, is particularly egregious to me as a fan of the character. Not killing is a core part of the character.
 
I have to wonder if people actually pay attention to the movie when they're watching it, the amount of stuff that people say are plot holes that aren't is astounding. I guess that's what happens when mob mentality kicks in. *hides behind shield*
 
What a total lack of understanding of how character development works.

So Superman dies, and everything about that falls completely flat. There's no foreshadowing at all to prepare us for the moment, and when it comes they haven't established why a sacrifice is the only choice, so during his lame goodbye speech there's no way you can be invested in the scene, because all you're thinking is, why does he have to die? Can't he just stab him and not die? And haven't we established three seconds ago that he can't be the one doing the stabbing, because he can't even lift the spear without passing out? Oh apparently he can pick it up, and fly. Just give it to wonder women, you don't have to do it yourself. Oh I guess It's too late, you already stabbed him. Good job man, you did it. Let go of the spear now. Just leave. Let go dude. Ok now Doomsday grabbed you and stabbed you. Dumb. Oh you're impaling yourself further into the spike, so you can make the spear penetrate all the way through? Why? You're taking the kryptonite out of his body. You fucking idiot. This is your great sacrifice, you stupid idiot. Jesus christ. I don't believe for a second that you're actually dead. So, just stop pretending and get up now. No, you're really going to just stay dead? Ok so we're at your funeral now, wow I guess you really want to make a point that you're actually dead for real here. Ok 15 minutes of funeral stuff. Guess they're serious about this. Ok now this farce is finally coming to an end... and the dirt moves.... Fuck you.
 
Razorback PT said:
What a total lack of understanding of how character development works.

So Superman dies, and everything about that falls completely flat. There's no foreshadowing at all to prepare us for the moment, and when it comes they haven't established why a sacrifice is the only choice, so during his lame goodbye speech there's no way you can be invested in the scene, because all you're thinking is, why does he have to die? Can't he just stab him and not die? And haven't we established three seconds ago that he can't be the one doing the stabbing, because he can't even lift the spear without passing out? Oh apparently he can pick it up, and fly. Just give it to wonder women, you don't have to do it yourself. Oh I guess It's too late, you already stabbed him. Good job man, you did it. Let go of the spear now. Just leave. Let go dude. Ok now Doomsday grabbed you and stabbed you. Dumb. Oh you're impaling yourself further into the spike, so you can make the spear penetrate all the way through? Why? You're taking the kryptonite out of his body. You fucking idiot. This is your great sacrifice, you stupid idiot. Jesus christ. I don't believe for a second that you're actually dead. So, just stop pretending and get up now. No, you're really going to just stay dead? Ok so we're at your funeral now, wow I guess you really want to make a point that you're actually dead for real here. Ok 15 minutes of funeral stuff. Guess they're serious about this. Ok now this farce is finally coming to an end... and the dirt moves.... Fuck you.
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lol.

Yep.
 
The Boat said:
I have to wonder if people actually pay attention to the movie when they're watching it, the amount of stuff that people say are plot holes that aren't is astounding. I guess that's what happens when mob mentality kicks in. *hides behind shield*
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Examples would help.

And lack of clarity on some plot points speaks to poor writing, directing, and editing. When large portions of the audience struggle to understand elements of film it's the fault of the filmmakers.
 
Henkka said:
It's a movie. Yes, the no-kill rule makes no sense in the real world. But comics and superhero movies are fantasy. The writer can just make it so that the goons don't have rocket launchers. Or make the Batplane have some stealth mode so they don't even notice it's approach. Nothing necessitates Batman going in guns blazing, except the writers and directors wanting to make it so.
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You have to realize they have to bring in viewers who aren't comic book fans. They make up the largest demographic. Having a stealth mode or Batman not retalliating would not be riveting. Like I said, he has to save Clark's mom. He had a dream sequence where they showed what would happen if Clark lost the people he loved. He even blamed Bruce directly for it.
 
Razorback PT said:
What a total lack of understanding of how character development works.

So Superman dies, and everything about that falls completely flat. There's no foreshadowing at all to prepare us for the moment, and when it comes they haven't established why a sacrifice is the only choice, so during his lame goodbye speech there's no way you can be invested in the scene, because all you're thinking is, why does he have to die? Can't he just stab him and not die? And haven't we established three seconds ago that he can't be the one doing the stabbing, because he can't even lift the spear without passing out? Oh apparently he can pick it up, and fly. Just give it to wonder women, you don't have to do it yourself. Oh I guess It's too late, you already stabbed him. Good job man, you did it. Let go of the spear now. Just leave. Let go dude. Ok now Doomsday grabbed you and stabbed you. Dumb. Oh you're impaling yourself further into the spike, so you can make the spear penetrate all the way through? Why? You're taking the kryptonite out of his body. You fucking idiot. This is your great sacrifice, you stupid idiot. Jesus christ. I don't believe for a second that you're actually dead. So, just stop pretending and get up now. No, you're really going to just stay dead? Ok so we're at your funeral now, wow I guess you really want to make a point that you're actually dead for real here. Ok 15 minutes of funeral stuff. Guess they're serious about this. Ok now this farce is finally coming to an end... and the dirt moves.... Fuck you.
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They didn't need the last part, cuz...you knew it was going to happen, anyways. Plus it takes away all of the drama surrounding Justice League potentially not having him.

But as for him dying out of the blue, you're not supposed to expect it. It's supposed to catch you off guard. Superman is built up as this indestructable thing that Batman must kill (and, coincidentally does since he made the Spear). You're supposed to laugh at that idea and go 'nah, they'd never do that' then they do it.
 
Firemind said:
You have to realize they have to bring in viewers who aren't comic book fans. They make up the largest demographic. Having a stealth mode or Batman not retalliating would not be riveting. Like I said, he has to save Clark's mom. He had a dream sequence where they showed what would happen if Clark lost the people he loved. He even blamed Bruce directly for it.
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Batman no kill rule is the most broken and absurd superpower in Comic book history. I'm glad the natural progression of a Human being that have seen so much and have deal with so much is shown here, it makes him more human in a Universe were every important set piece is meta-human.

The_Dama said:
can some explain the dreams to me? the fight in the desert, the guy coming out of the wall, the monsters and all that stuff
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The monster are Darkseid minions, I didn't recognized who was the one that came trough the wall, Orion, maybe?

The meaning behind the dream was that Batman was having a Knightmare of a near future of Suprerman gone rogue, but in fact is was a vision of whats going to happen when Darkseid comes, basically That wasn't superman in the dream, that was Darkseid.
 
The_Dama said:
can some explain the dreams to me? the fight in the desert, the guy coming out of the wall, the monsters and all that stuff
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The Man-Bat in the Wayne Crypt is just a regular nightmare Bruce has. Probably a sign of how his Batman persona creates uncertainty even in himself.

The Knightmare scene is a vision of a future where Lois died because of Batman, and Supermen decided to side with Darkseid and enslaved humanity instead.

Flash coming out of a time portal to warn Bruce is... Flash coming out of a time portal to warn Bruce about the future.

Superman meeting his father at the top of a mountain is Zack Snyder trying to give Kevin Costner one last paycheck for the good times.
 
Batman sure does sleep a lot in this film. I wonder how he manages to fight crime by night when he's so sleepy all the time.
 
duckroll said:
The Man-Bat in the Wayne Crypt is just a regular nightmare Bruce has. Probably a sign of how his Batman persona creates uncertainty even in himself.

The Knightmare scene is a vision of a future where Lois died because of Batman, and Supermen decided to side with Darkseid and enslaved humanity instead.

Flash coming out of a time portal to warn Bruce is... Flash coming out of a time portal to warn Bruce about the future.

Superman meeting his father at the top of a mountain is Zack Snyder trying to give Kevin Costner one last paycheck for the good times.
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Thank you
 
duckroll said:
I want to point out something really funny about Snyder's vision of parenting in the DC films. It was something I mentioned in the DC Community Thread the other day about how Pa Kent's "maybe" response to "what should I have done, just let them die?" in Man of Steel. It bothered me because while it might have been a human moment of weakness for Pa Kent, just having that in the movie says something, and it's not positive.

Now in BvS, we have Batman saying some pretty amazing shit about HIS parents. First, to justify his suicidal crusade against Superman, he reminds Alfred that his father taught him that the first generation of Waynes weren't industrialists, they were HUNTERS. Okay, that's actually a pretty good scene on its own, but the funny part is how it leads into what he says later when he's really fucking Superman up. YOU KNOW WHAT MY PARENTS TAUGHT ME? DIE IN A GUTTER FOR NO REASON AT ALL. IF YOU WANT TO MAKE SENSE OF THE WORLD, YOU HAVE TO FORCE IT TO. He might just be saying this out of a moment of rage, but to say that about his parents who he loved so much, that they taught him nothing positive about self worth... that's pretty amazing.
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Yup, in that single wording, he invalidates everything he's done as he makes his parents death matter by becoming Batman. Man, they fucked that up.
 
duckroll said:
The Knightmare scene is a vision of a future where Lois died because of Batman, and Supermen decided to side with Darkseid and enslaved humanity instead.
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But is that, like, somehow implanted by future-Flash? Or was it coincidental? Why would Bruce have visions of possible futures? He never really reacts to the dream or Flash coming out of his wall. So bad.
 
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