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[More Fun To Compute]

So I guess my point is, i feel that people who are athiest need to start saying what type of athiest they are, becuase the name has gotten a bad rap and lumps 2 very different opinions together.

It basically doesn't matter what "rep" atheism has unless people are persecuted for it or denied opportunities. Well, they are, but there is already a long line of people with that sort of grievance. If atheists are not causing genuine problems and the only problem is that people think they are dicks who are not always as nice as they should be then it's nothing. Only reason to divide atheists into two artificial groups is because you want some sort of fake good guys vs bad guys drama to start cooking. Classic divide and rule.

 

[Unbounded]

If everything is mindless atoms bumping into each other, with no guiding hand, then by definition there is no purpose in anything, no 'meaning of life', nothing but a howling chaos.

Yes. This is true. And?

The athiest also loses any concept of a fixed morality. If different cultures have different (or even opposing) moral values, why should I follow any of them? Why not just make up my own morality where I can do whatever I want? It would be no more or less authentic than any other.

You can definitely do that. There's no problem with you doing so. What's the issue?

So is there any logical way out of this nihilistic mindset where a person is ultimately no more important than a pile of mud? Sure you can set your own goals (get a promotion, have kids, own a Porsche) but in a godless universe those goals are as meaningless as everything else. Your job, children and shiny car are as meaningless as you are and everything else is.

As far as some sort of "objective meaning" goes, then sure. There is none.

The cool thing about "meaning" though is that it's for the most part highly subjective and varies from individual to individual.

 

[CornBurrito]

Lots of fluffy, 'Hey, life is what YOU make of it! YOU find the meaning in YOUR life!' sentiment in this thread, but it misses the point that the base level of reality in a godless universe is just a few physical laws and a load of atoms.

If this is what everything is built on, then how can there be any meaning? Nothing that exists was intended to exist, it just happened due the the laws of physics, and any meaning you create for yourself has no worth because YOU are a meaningless pile of atoms.

Ever consider there might be a god but that god is a mindless force or simply doesn't care about humans?

 

[Mr Waluigi]

What does involuntarily breathing have to do with this convo? It's not something we can actively control. We CAN actively control how we act towards one another. Regardless of whether you do that for spiritual reasons or for emotional reasons, neither is true altruism as both acts have a self fulling end. So why should one be more meaningful?

You can't control what God wants people to do either, that's my point.

Or think about it in another way.

there is no God -> we're alone -> we're just meat with chemical reactions -> nothing ever mattered or ever will to the universe -> I will die one day so I might as well enjoy the time I have and not be a dick.

That's clearly not the OP's point of view...

 

[CornBurrito]

This is true. In the end, it's all about Jesus.

The thing you seem to be missing is that you asserted the Bible never changes, so Bible centered morality never changes.

Except it has been demonstrated multiple times that it does, and it has.

Human interpretation of the Bible changes over time, which means the moral lessons and values derived from it change over time.

 

[Fenderputty]

You can't control what God wants people to do either, that's my point.

Why is that relevant to our discussion?

 

[Wolfgunblood Garopa]

There is a difference between something that is existing on our planet and something that could exist beyond our universe though.

Plus Santa Claus could exist on some other planet in another Galaxy, I don't know! Haha

But yeah, Ive just always tried to distance myself from both ends of the spectrum, the people who say 'there is a God and you will go to hell for not believing' and the people who say 'there's is no God, you people are idiots!'

Both are bad choices and I don't think either people know the answer.

So I guess my point is, i feel that people who are athiest need to start saying what type of athiest they are, becuase the name has gotten a bad rap and lumps 2 very different opinions together.

Agnostics say 'I don't think so, but I don't know for sure because we don't know everything' and then act like they're speaking from a position of authority on reason.

 

[Commanche Raisin Toast]

this is kind of gross and shows just how ignorant the masses are on what atheism actually is.

and as others have already pointed out, it's more disgusting to me for someone to lets say, not murder, just because their imaginary friend said not to, rather than them deciding on their own that murdering people is bad and refraining from doing so.

 

[mentallyinept]

That's clearly not the OP's point of view...

Didn't claim it was.

I'm saying that there is an exit to the loop you posted.

 

[Mr Waluigi]

Why is that relevant to our discussion?

God wants us to act a certain way toward each other. And in the end all will return to God anyway. The idea of Christianity is not to gratify oneself by doing good things (be it because it strokes the ego or because it leads to Heaven) but to submit oneself to the universal order (as it is accoridng to Christianity). It's more about giving oneself up in a spiritually lifting way.
As for the execution, that's another discussion.

Didn't claim it was.

I'm saying that there is an exit to the loop you posted.

Oh yeah, there is. Sorry, tired as hell

 

[Lowmelody]

1. It's quite the non sequitur to say that absent a guiding hand there can be no meaning. One has only to gaze upon a mountainside or brook to see the beauty and meaning for all of the life around it. This was classically an appeal to god to point out the undeniable majesty of nature because it was assumed that such things could only exist because of a god. Think about it, this one, singular, lonely world is so wonderful that mankind contrives it has to be set up for him because that's the only thing that makes sense. Everything in nature seems to fit together and has a place and as such one can learn from and empathize with the unbridled natural drama of little ol Earth. Even the most critical of minds of the time could have known no better. They were understandably ignorant of the impossibly complex processes that rendered all of that beauty out of a burning husk of debris left over from the formation of our solar system. The poetry and allegory from the philosophers and theologians of old ascribed to nature still apply regardless of the true origin or how it came about. Science and disciplined understanding of this world only enhances what we as humans have come to know and more importantly feel about our home long before our kin even took to land.

The natural world was used a proof of faith and affirmation of god. It wasn't god that made it beautiful, it already was to us and we attributed that to god. We humans fashioned god from nature and therefor it's folly to assume that the lack of god trivializes nature and if nature itself doesn't mean anything then perhaps the god of nihilism is oneself.

2. Morality is derived from empathy and the understanding of others. It doesn't need to be handed down from a god. Altruism works and has nurtured our species in-spite of this hostile planet for hundreds of thousands of years. Once again, it's the natural order that was attributed to god, not given from it. As with nature, if you change the origin it still leaves the meaning, whether it be from god or Bob.

 

[RaySpencer]

Agnostics say 'I don't think so, but I don't know for sure because we don't know everything' and then act like they're speaking from a position of authority on reason.

Haha yeah, guilty as charged. Hah

 

[Moff]

More atheists should be agnostic. I understand not believing in the gods that religions have, but to say you absolutely know there isn't anything past our universe seems just as silly.

I think it's a common misconception that atheists would say "we absolutely know there isn't anything out there" because that does not make sense, and it's mostly said by agnostics/religious people about atheists, not by atheists themselves
it's a matter of how you approach the question

let me tell you why I am an atheist and not an agnostic
I do not believe, I reject believing, I think there is no need or use for belief. I certainly do not believe in any of the religious deities and even more, I do not believe there is anything out there

and now the important point is, even if we discovered a "god" somewhere in the universe or if he/she showed up on our doorstep, there is still no use or need for belief. I would still be an atheist, because I still would not believe, I would know.
we would no longer need to call it a "god", it would get a definitive description or name. belief is still not needed or any use. that's why I am an atheist and don't think agnosticism makes sense.

 

[SturokBGD]

... Millions?

Over the age of 8 I mean.

What about people who say that chemtrails aren't real?

I was just making fun of the Santa Claus thing.

 

[riskVSreward]

Can't have an atheism thread without someone redefining atheism and agnosticism.

Even if you are an agnostic, you still have to be either a theist or an atheist. One addresses knowledge the other addresses belief.

 

[Joyful]

people who the drop the atheists cant have morals crap really trigger me

 

[Ophelion]

Can't have an atheism thread without someone redefining atheism and agnosticism.

Even if you are an agnostic, you still have to be either a theist or an atheist. One addresses knowledge the other addresses belief.

And it can never be said often enough.

 

[daviyoung]

atheism isn't a gateway drug

rejecting the belief in God doesn't stop you from believing anything else

 

[Lowmelody]

Until I am shown some phenomenon that can ONLY be attributed to a god, I have no reason to believe in a god. Therefore I lack belief in a god, therefore I am atheist.

 

[mentallyinept]

Oh yeah, there is. Sorry, tired as hell

No worries.

 

[Pyramid head]

I think it's a common misconception that atheist would say "we absolutely know there isn't anything out there" because that does not make sense, and it's mostly said by agnostics about atheists, not by atheists themselves
it's a matter of how you approach the question

let me tell you why I am an atheist and not an agnostic
I do not believe, I reject believing, I think there is no need or use for belief. I certainly do not believe in any of the religious deities and even more, I do not believe there is anything out there

and now the important point is, even if we discovered a "god" somewhere in the universe or of he/she showed up on our doorstep, there is still no use or need for belief. we would know.
we would no longer need to call it a "god", it would get a definitive description or name. belief is not needed. that's why I am an atheist and don't think agnosticism makes sense.

This.

It's puzzling to me that many (mostly reigious) people can't fathom the difference between a person being certain of their own lack of belief in a deity, and a person claiming they know god doesn't exist, even though I bet they've never actually heard anyone state the latter. It's just how their brains seem to process the former.

 

[ClayKavalier]

You're overthinking it. Why does everything have to have "meaning"? What does that even mean?

Leave a positive impact on others' lives and people will think yours was meaningful. What else do you want?

Yeah it's kind of super terrifying.

I'm having trouble deciphering "kind of super."

 

[Fenderputty]

God wants us to act a certain way toward each other. And in the end all will return to God anyway. The idea of Christianity is not to gratify oneself by doing good things (be it because it strokes the ego or because it leads to Heaven) but to submit onselef to the universal order (as it is accoridng to Christianity). It's more about giving oneself up in a spiritually lifting way.

As for the execution, that's another discussion.

There's a reason the term "God fearing Christian" exists. There's a reason hell was created and it's existence is debated among biblical scholars. There's a reason God punished people like a mad king in the OT. There's a reason only Christians are given access to heaven. Why even dangle heaven and an eternity with Jesus in front of followers if it doesn't lead there?

 

[MEsoJD]

I've been an athiest for as long as I've thought seriously about the topic of god and religion, which followed a childhood that was pretty much secular anyway. I then went on to do physics at university and have followed a mostly scientific career path. I'm about as secure in my athiesm as I can be, basically, and I very much doubt that will ever change.

But if you really take athiesm to it's logical conclusion, what are you left with? If everything is mindless atoms bumping into each other, with no guiding hand, then by definition there is no purpose in anything, no 'meaning of life', nothing but a howling chaos.

The athiest also loses any concept of a fixed morality. If different cultures have different (or even opposing) moral values, why should I follow any of them? Why not just make up my own morality where I can do whatever I want? It would be no more or less authentic than any other.

So is there any logical way out of this nihilistic mindset where a person is ultimately no more important than a pile of mud? Sure you can set your own goals (get a promotion, have kids, own a Porsche) but in a godless universe those goals are as meaningless as everything else. Your job, children and shiny car are as meaningless as you are and everything else is.

Umm...discuss.

Hello, fellow atheist.
Atheism provides the choice to determine your own purpose. Religion is for sheep that need someone or something to give them all the answers without the work. It makes people slaves and less capable of handling critical thinking scenarios that contradict their faith.

Morals are based on our survival instincts on a basic level and further expanded upon by society. The majority of your choices on a conscious and unconscious level deals with cost vs benefit. Because you are an animal who evolved (dna, tailbone, fossils) from a common ancestor of chimpanzees whose evolution (though extremely rare) was based on intelligence and it's that intelligence that some think we are special (well... mystically). On an inherent level, your purpose is to support the species.

We don't know exactly how we came to being. That's being studied, as the nature of existence is very complicated, but we are making progress. For example, some of our greatest minds are researching the nature of existence at the Large Hydron Collider in Switzerland. In recent years they've already confirmed the Higgs Boson Particle (aka God Particle). A theorized component of physics. This is how we move forward and actually find answers.

I myself don't know all the answers, but I do believe our best method is the scientific. Take charge of life. Be a leader, not a sheep. I have a lot to live for. Friends, family, a great girlfriend, my art, a good job, craft beer, etc... We need to keep moving forward and I'm just happy that religion is dying day by day. Thanks to the internet, it can't hide from criticism.

 

[Trumpets]

You're overthinking it

What I'm trying to do is think it through to its logical conclusion, which in my opinion not enough people do. It's all very well to declare yourself an atheist, but by doing so you change the universe you live in to an unfeeling and unthinking one, without purpose, so there are concequences.

 

[Steeped in a Sea of Games]

Can't have an atheism thread without someone redefining atheism and agnosticism.

Even if you are an agnostic, you still have to be either a theist or an atheist. One addresses knowledge the other addresses belief.

I have never bought this idea before. It feels like something atheists tell themselves to feel better or to attempt to swell their ranks.

Belief is a choice. Being an Agnostic isn't just about knowledge, it's about not making a choice. Not taking a stance between belief and non-belief as those are absolute states. There has to be a middle-ground there and no, just because you aren't currently practicing a religion doesn't automatically put you in the camp of nonbeliever; you're just currently ignoring those tenants despite whatever consequence that may bring to you.

 

[Shmuppers]

Technically, "holy spirit" is a feminine word in the Greek.

God is genderless though yes, but the original languages essentially required you to select a gender, so they defaulted to male (given the society at the time, that's not shocking

I actually didn't know this, thanks.

 

[Lowmelody]

What I'm trying to do is think it through to its logical conclusion, which in my opinion not enough people do. It's all very well to declare yourself an atheist, but by doing so you change the universe you live in to an unfeeling and unthinking one, without purpose, so there are concequences.

Thats just it, there is no changing the universe. It was there billions of years before we made up our thousands of gods to explain it.

 

[Manu]

What I'm trying to do is think it through to its logical conclusion, which in my opinion not enough people do. It's all very well to declare yourself an atheist, but by doing so you change the universe you live in to an unfeeling and unthinking one, without purpose, so there are concequences.

No, you don't. A lot of people have explained that to you in this thread and you refuse to see it.

An atheist's life has as much "meaning" as yours, with the main difference being that they get to choose what that meaning is.

 

[Pantaghana]

What I'm trying to do is think it through to its logical conclusion, which in my opinion not enough people do. It's all very well to declare yourself an atheist, but by doing so you change the universe you live in to an unfeeling and unthinking one, without purpose, so there are concequences.

No there aren't.
The universe was not at any point sentient. It never cared for humans and it never will.
Acknowledging that fact changes nothing.

 

[Moff]

What I'm trying to do is think it through to its logical conclusion, which in my opinion not enough people do. It's all very well to declare yourself an atheist, but by doing so you change the universe you live in to an unfeeling and unthinking one, without purpose, so there are concequences.

I think you have some kind of identity crisis
let me tell you that it's very easy to find purpose and meaning without a god in a completely random universe and honestly I feel pity for people who cannot do that without guidance from a higher power

 

[ZdkDzk]

Lots of fluffy, 'Hey, life is what YOU make of it! YOU find the meaning in YOUR life!' sentiment in this thread, but it misses the point that the base level of reality in a godless universe is just a few physical laws and a load of atoms.

If this is what everything is built on, then how can there be any meaning? Nothing that exists was intended to exist, it just happened due the the laws of physics, and any meaning you create for yourself has no worth because YOU are a meaningless pile of atoms.

Yes, if there isn't a creator then there isn't any inherent meaning, value or purpose to the universe or anything in it. But to say that means there is no meaning full stop, is to devalue your own awareness of your self and the world around you. Why does the absence of an inherent meaning mean that your opinions and feelings mean nothing? If there is a creator, why does it's opinions and feeling overwrite your own?

Meaning, value and purpose are things that are given, and ultimately they only matter to the person who gives them. I personally don't see the point of craving for some higher being to give something value. If it exist, then why should I care; if it doesn't then why should I chase after an imaginary construct that someone made up? Either or, If it doesn't affect my life, then what's it have to do with me. It's irrelevant.

 

[umop_3pisdn]

Lots of fluffy, 'Hey, life is what YOU make of it! YOU find the meaning in YOUR life!' sentiment in this thread, but it misses the point that the base level of reality in a godless universe is just a few physical laws and a load of atoms.

If this is what everything is built on, then how can there be any meaning? Nothing that exists was intended to exist, it just happened due the the laws of physics, and any meaning you create for yourself has no worth because YOU are a meaningless pile of atoms.

Meaning is only meaning because we choose it. If the universe already has meaning on its own and we just happen to fall into it, then it literally means nothing to us because what we do doesn't even matter, we're just the product of God that has a plan for us or whatever so fuck our plans or what our silly hominid brains think meaning is. I honestly fail to see how meaning existing as a property of the universe makes life more meaningful, if anything it makes it less meaningful because it undermines our agency, which is really the only interesting things about humans: we're utterly free and utterly responsible for ourselves because we have self-reflection and we don't exist in the world like ordinary objects do. So then why are you trying to make yourself into an object by fitting yourself into some universal context of meaning that has nothing to do with you. To me that seems like a kind of nihilism, 'take my responsibility, I don't want it'.

 

[freethoughtbubble]

What I'm trying to do is think it through to its logical conclusion, which in my opinion not enough people do. It's all very well to declare yourself an atheist, but by doing so you change the universe you live in to an unfeeling and unthinking one, without purpose, so there are concequences.

I think people think it through just fine. I don't think anything you said in your original post is a revelation to any atheist in this thread. I know* that I live in a universe that is indifferent to my existence, that there is no extrinsic purpose to life, and that when I and my loved ones die, we will be gone forever. I've known this since I was an adolescent. But I still think human life has significance. What am I missing?

* To the extent that I can know.

Edit: honestly, OP, I'm having a bit of trouble seeing you as a life-long atheist. Have you just not thought about these things until now? Honest question.

Double edit: just went back and checked and looks like I was wrong about the life-long part. Sorry, OP. I'm still curious for how long you've thought seriously about god and religion, though.

 

[HazySaiyan]

What I'm trying to do is think it through to its logical conclusion, which in my opinion not enough people do. It's all very well to declare yourself an atheist, but by doing so you change the universe you live in to an unfeeling and unthinking one, without purpose, so there are concequences.

No you don't, the Universe has always been that way. Waking up to that fact doesn't change a thing.

 

[Lowmelody]

Lots of fluffy, 'Hey, life is what YOU make of it! YOU find the meaning in YOUR life!' sentiment in this thread, but it misses the point that the base level of reality in a godless universe is just a few physical laws and a load of atoms.

If this is what everything is built on, then how can there be any meaning? Nothing that exists was intended to exist, it just happened due the the laws of physics, and any meaning you create for yourself has no worth because YOU are a meaningless pile of atoms.

Take 1:26 to watch this video, it sums up the dilemma here rather succinctly, I think.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSZNsIFID28

 

[News Bot]

Nietzsche often uses the same word to mean different things. When he uses the word "nihilist", he could be referencing three separate ideas:

1) Christian Nihilism - the negation of life and movement toward nothingness; Christianity does not feel itself to be nihilistic, but from the atheistic perspective Nietzsche has, it aims toward nothing and denies life. While the atheist has only life to value, the Christian decides that this life we live now has no value, and only the life beyond has meaning. However, since that life is non-existent, Christians value nothing at all.

2) Negative Nihilism - the realization that the universe is a cold and unloving place, and thus the belief that one's life has no meaning. This is the kind of nihilism the OP is talking about, and it is a nihilism that Nietzsche is fighting against because he believes that it is a natural post-Christian tendency.

3) Positive Nihilism - the realization that the universe is a cold and unloving place, and that is perfectly fine. While life has no objective meaning, the positive nihilist has come to realize that the valuation of the universe takes place solely within his/her own mind, and he/she can choose what meaning life has. This is could also be called a "happy nihilism", because the burden of God has been destroyed, but the shadow of God, negative nihilism, has been destroyed as well. What is left is a love of life.

I think the main reason people struggle to read Nietzsche is that they do not catch these subtleties; Nietzsche does us no favors, and uses the terms interchangeably. His goal is not necessarily to help us understand him, but rather to create introspection.

This makes sense, thank you!

Eh, that sounds closer to Existentialism than pure Nihilism, which Nietzsche was arguably one of the forefathers of (along with Kierkegaard).

Philosophy can have quite a bit of overlap, in my view. My personal beliefs are tinged with nihilism, humanism, individualism, liberalism, existentialism, etc and they're not that mututally exclusive, tending to complement each other. It's ever-evolving for me, but there are core aspects that will remain a cornerstone of my life.

 

[SmugSnake]

I have never bought this idea before. It feels like something atheists tell themselves to feel better or to attempt to swell their ranks.

Belief is a choice. Being an Agnostic isn't just about knowledge, it's about not making a choice. Not taking a stance between belief and non-belief as those are absolute states. There has to be a middle-ground there and no, just because you aren't currently practicing a religion doesn't automatically put you in the camp of nonbeliever; you're just currently ignoring those tenants despite whatever consequence that may bring to you.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic_atheism

As for atheism - it's not always 'I know for a fact period". I'm an atheist because I am not convinced god/gods exist but If I am given enough evidence then I will change my mind. It's not always an absolute position, and most of the atheists I talk to fall in this camp. Most atheists are just applying logic to the question of gods - 'if gods exist then prove it, until there is proof there is no reason for me to believe'.

 

[Steeped in a Sea of Games]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic_atheism

As for atheism - it's not always 'I know for a fact period". I'm an atheist because I am not convinced god/gods exist but If I am given enough evidence then I will change my mind. It's not always an absolute position, and most of the atheists I talk to fall in this camp. Most atheists are just applying logic to the question of gods - 'if gods exist then prove it, until there is proof there is no reason for me to believe'.

I'm fine with there being degrees such as what agnostic atheism would describe, but there are plenty who practice absolutes. Someone who says "There is no god or gods and there never was one" is absolutely what I would call a true atheist. Agnostic atheism is just that, agnosticism that leans towards atheistic ideals whereas I also believe you can be agnostic leaning towards theist beliefs (Probably a god out there, practices religious ideals, but believes there might be nothing).

 

[Ophelion]

I'm fine with there being degrees such as what agnostic atheism would describe, but there are plenty who practice absolutes. Someone who says "There is no god or gods and there never was one" is absolutely what I would call a true atheist. Agnostic atheism is just that, agnosticism that leans towards atheistic ideals whereas I also believe you can be agnostic leaning towards theist beliefs (Probably a god out there, practices religious ideals, but believes there might be nothing).

No True Scotsman, huh? Nice.

 

[SaganIsGOAT]

I think one thing I've really gained from leaving Catholcism is a deeper connection to this Universe. No longer is mankind this kind of divine creation put here by a higher power. No longer do I feel anxiety about committing sin (sex for example) and the possibility of eternal suffering in the fires of hell. I no longer fear death, I embrace it as a necessary part of existence. When I die the experience is over. And since we can't have an experience of nothing there is really nothing to be worried about. Now, I feel a deep connection to this place. Feelings of alienation have completely gone away because if you look at the Universe from the time of the Big Bang to now, you can see that humans are just a later stage of that beautiful process.

 

[Trumpets]

I think people think it through just fine. I don't think anything you said in your original post is a revelation to any atheist in this thread. I know* that I live in a universe that is indifferent to my existence, that there is no extrinsic purpose to life, and that when I and my loved ones die, we will be gone forever. I've known this since I was an adolescent. But I still think human life has significance. What am I missing?

That human life cannot logically have any purpose or meaning in a godless universe, because there is no intent behind such a universe, just mindless physical laws. If the universe and everything in it came about by cosmic acident (which you seem to accept), then the universe and everything it it is, by definition, meaningless.

 

[Manu]

That human life cannot logically have any purpose or meaning in a godless universe, because there is no intent behind such a universe, just mindless physical laws. If the universe and everything in it came about by cosmic acident (which you seem to accept), then the universe and everything it it is, by definition, meaningless.

You seem to operate under the assumption that cramming the words "logically" and "by definition" into an argument is enough to justify the holes in your logic.

Just because something exists without a purpose doesn't mean it cannot be given purpose (or, in the case of human beings, being sentient, find their own purpose.) Not being born with a purpose gives you a blank slate to find your own.

This entire thread has become this:

"Atheists, your lives are meaningless without a god!"
"No, we make our own meaning."
"But you can't, not without a god."
"Yes we can, we actually do it all the time."
"But that's impossible."

 

[Deleted member 125677]

snip

Nietzsche often uses the same word to mean different things. When he uses the word "nihilist", he could be referencing three separate ideas:

1) Christian Nihilism - the negation of life and movement toward nothingness; Christianity does not feel itself to be nihilistic, but from the atheistic perspective Nietzsche has, it aims toward nothing and denies life. While the atheist has only life to value, the Christian decides that this life we live now has no value, and only the life beyond has meaning. However, since that life is non-existent, Christians value nothing at all.

2) Negative Nihilism - the realization that the universe is a cold and unloving place, and thus the belief that one's life has no meaning. This is the kind of nihilism the OP is talking about, and it is a nihilism that Nietzsche is fighting against because he believes that it is a natural post-Christian tendency.

First of all, thanks for your post, Karsticle, It was really helpful. Also, thanks for following up
with a proper reply, News Bot.

These first two variants are the types of Nihilisms I had in mind when I referred to Nietzsche's critique of Nihilism. Basically two sorts of passive Nihilism, implying a refusal to create something for yourself, not wanting to affirm anything. Simply accepting your own passiveness in a meaningless Universe, hence the concept of ressentiment. For me, this attitude implies a sort of ethical laziness and irresponsibility.

3) Positive Nihilism - the realization that the universe is a cold and unloving place, and that is perfectly fine. While life has no objective meaning, the positive nihilist has come to realize that the valuation of the universe takes place solely within his/her own mind, and he/she can choose what meaning life has. This is could also be called a "happy nihilism", because the burden of God has been destroyed, but the shadow of God, negative nihilism, has been destroyed as well. What is left is a love of life.

This is the affirmative attitude towards life, which appeals to me a great deal, and I admit I can't remember Nietzsche conceptualizing this as a variant of Nihilism as well. I'm not as enthusiastic about the 'solipcist' attitude, or the idea that you neccessarily have to create your own value for yourself in an enclosed space (your mind or whatever).

I like to think the affirmative attitude also works in a social or cultural setting, but I know Nietzsche was far more sceptical of the possibilities of creating real values within e.g. a democracy.

 

[BrokenIcarus]

Utilitarianism works for me

 

[umop_3pisdn]

That human life cannot logically have any purpose or meaning in a godless universe, because there is no intent behind such a universe, just mindless physical laws. If the universe and everything in it came about by cosmic acident (which you seem to accept), then the universe and everything it it is, by definition, meaningless.

Explain to me how the universe having intrinsic meaning existing in it somehow would have any meaning to us at all.

 

[Trumpets]

You seem to operate under the assumption that cramming the words "logically" and "by definition" into an argument is enough to justify the holes in your logic.

Just because something exists without a purpose doesn't mean it cannot be given purpose (or, in the case of human beings, being sentient, find their own purpose.) Not being born with a purpose gives you a blank slate to find your own.

There is a bigger picture that you and many others seem unable or unwilling to accept, because your viewpoint is too rigidly homocentric and you cannot grasp that your self-defined purpose is meaningless because you (and everyone else) are meaningless.

Explain to me how the universe having intrinsic meaning existing in it somehow would have any meaning to us at all.

That's kind of what the Bible (or other holy book of choice) tries to do.

 

[Fenderputty]

If the universe and everything in it came about by cosmic acident (which you seem to accept), then the universe and everything it it is, by definition, meaningless.

Things that happen by accident are meaningless? Seems kinda arbitrary IMO.

 

[umop_3pisdn]

There is a bigger picture that you and many others seem unable or unwilling to accept, because your viewpoint is too rigidly homocentric and you cannot grasp that your self-defined purpose is meaningless because you (and everyone else) are meaningless.

You're confusing meaning with purpose/teleology. They aren't the same thing for the same reason no one talks about something being their 'destiny' anymore.

That's kind of what the Bible (or other holy book of choice) tries to do.

Explain to me how it apparently succeeds.

Actually I'm a Buddhist and it's a pretty common reading to regard right view and right intention as being equivalent to Heidegger's view of authenticity. And that means that right view is not giving assent to theories about the external world. Claiming that the universe has intrinsic meaning would definitely be one of those theories that you'd avoid as a good Buddhist, so try again.

 

[Manu]

There is a bigger picture that you and many others seem unable or unwilling to accept, because your viewpoint is too rigidly homocentric and you cannot grasp that your self-defined purpose is meaningless because you (and everyone else) are meaningless.

And what gives you the authority to state this as fact?