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[Lime]

I'm still in disbelief that someone's livelihood and safety and stability got ruined and destroyed over some gamers feeling entitled to sexualised female characters (of a dubious age??).

And then that Nintendo apparently prioritized the latter rather than the former.

Edit: i see some replies to my previous post, I'll get back to it later

 

[Vex_]

Her name was at the top of the credits for that stuff, or at least prominently to the point where people put the blame on her. That's basically it. Her name was high on a random totem pole that ticked somebody off.

There were SO MANY threads over the past several months about how people were blaming her specifically for localization changes to Fatal Frame 5, XCX and FE:Fates. It was ridiculous.

Wow. Jesus.

 

[AzaK]

I'm still in disbelief that someone's livelihood and safety and stability got ruined and destroyed over some gamers feeling entitled to sexualised female characters (of a dubious age??).

And then that Nintendo apparently prioritized the latter rather than the former.

Hey, Nintendo has no problem allowing games that treat women like sex objects on their platforms so it's in line with their philosophy.

 

[Sapientas]

My thoughts exactly, nintendo should have thought about this before.


Even if there were legit reasons to fire her (I dont believe that), doing so only makes people think they can just harass nintendo's female employees without no consequences. This wont be pretty.

I didn't think about this, it's a very valid fear. Knowing GG that is very likely to happen. I just hope Nintendo can try and do something about it for change.

 

[stump sock]

Given how much more prevalent social media is in today's society I feel like companies need to start taking a more progressive stance on things like this.

not going to happen. not at larger companies. PR is a very expensive, very calculated thing, and it doesn't matter how big the gears or how small the wrenches are, their intersections are going to be avoided as frequently as possible.

not even taking into account that humanity at large has proven incapable of being responsible with social media

 

[Kamina777]

What? Why would Nintendo be afraid of gamergate? If anything bringing attention to gamergate is what gives it life, rather than attributing things to this anonymous bogeyman, out the particular people or accounts doing the dirty work treat them on an individual basis and let that lame entity amd its lame name die with the year 2015.

 

[Eevee86]

If they had kept her on (which no, it doesn't sound like they were going to do before finding out about her second job) then she would still be constantly harassed. The game industry has got to try and kill the monsters they've created.

And if they kept her, Nintendo would be constantly harassed. It's a no win situation.

 

[LudicrousSpeed]

The funny thing is we all KNOW it was GG that brought on this shitstorm, yet without knowing the whole truth more people are blaming nintendo.

Hate movements like GG only have any power because companies like Nintendo can't stop from prostrating themselves before them. Nintendo had control over their own reaction, and they acted in a horrific fashion that deserves criticism.

 

[Rats Off To Ya]

It seems like Nintendo didn't like her being connected to GamerGate through Twitter and then found a reason to fire her through her moonlighting gig. Am I getting this right?

That's absolutely what it feels like to me.

 

[Laevateinn]

If those GG morons weren't so fucking dumb, they could just learn Japanese then they wouldn't have to cry every time a 3D model of a child wears more modest clothing. Instead they decide to rally around white supremacists to destroy the woman whose name appears highest in the credits. It's disgusting.

 

[antonz]

Nintendo if you get down to it basically threw her under the bus. She gets back from her Vacation to basically be demoted from a Project Manager to a regular worker. Anyone in the corporate world knows such demotions are basically what they do to avoid controversy with a firing and instead hope they drive you to quit.

Gamergate came back with more shit to stir the pot and she hadn't quit so it gave an effective excuse to cut the ties.

 

[partyphone]

I'm still in disbelief that someone's livelihood and safety and stability got ruined and destroyed over some gamers feeling entitled to sexualised female characters (of a dubious age??).

And then that Nintendo apparently prioritized the latter rather than the former.

it's the fun combination of corporate callousness and weak worker's rights.

it's super fucking painfully obvious why she got fired but they found a technicality so they're in the clear from a legal point of view. from a moral point of view: fuck nintendo.

 

[Funkyhamster]

With all due respect your suggestion will not work. The reason being the perpetrators of these vile acts are psychopathic bullies. In my opinion, the only way that real and effective change can be recorded is by having far reaching cyber bullying laws. At the end of the day what these guys are doing is illegal and unless law enforcement can be allowed to effectively work I am afraid we will keep on having a repeat of this nasty event.

It's true that any ultimate solution has to involve law enforcement, but I think that in general, a vocal minority has a lot more power when the majority is uninformed. I'm slightly ashamed to admit that I originally thought there were legitimate ethical issues with Anita Sarkeesian and Zoe Quinn just because I was getting my information from message boards and Reddit. If the big companies took a stand, it would definitely help people who aren't as plugged in form opinions about these issues when they come up.

 

[DarkConfidant]

I'm still in disbelief that someone's livelihood and safety and stability got ruined and destroyed over some gamers feeling entitled to sexualised female characters (of a dubious age??).

And then that Nintendo apparently prioritized the latter rather than the former.

Has Nintendo had a history of being more conservative? I’ve always thought of them that way, and this kinda seems like the way they’d prioritize things, if I had to guess.

(Not that I feel like this is necessarily justifiable because of a company’s rep, but I just want to know what other’s perception of Nintendo is.)

 

[KingBroly]

Everyone in the industry needs to be taking a lot of steps to fix these issues.

For starters, we need to have companies across the board coming out and directly condemning GamerGate by name, saying they don't want their business, and decrying all hate speech.

We also need a strong commitment to more female protagonists, games targeted at female gamers, games with broader diversity in their casts, and games from all genres getting focus, rather than just hyper violent games.

And I don't just mean token interest being shown, but games targeted at groups other than 18-24 year old dude bros getting big budgets, big E3 coverage, and being treated as "AAA" releases.

If the gaming industry is going to commit to ending this monster, they need to start treating all members of the gaming audience as being equally important.

You can't say "Gamergate" specifically because they'll just drop it and move onto a different title under the same pretense. You have to come out against the idea, say you won't be bullied by it, or be bullied into bullying employees over it.

And it's not JUST females (by and large it is), it's about harassment in general. Having more female protagonists isn't going to help if the behind-the-scenes stuff IS the problem. That's the shit that has to change.

 

[Somnid]

They didn't have to terminate. Breaking company policy is not automatic dismissal. There is normally a discipline policy in place and depending exceptions can be made. Maybe according to discipline policy should needs to be fired but its all speculation on our part.

From what it sounds like the "lateral" move was a means of compromise to keep her on given her circumstances. It would seem it simply got to the point where it wasn't going to work for them.

 

[sturgboski]

This is kind of its own problem, where people aren't actually paid to be walking billboards and lifestyle representatives of their employers but are still expected to act as such. Everyone having to be afraid to talk about injustices and touchy subjects because of the distant connection to their employer's brand has the ultimate effect of suppressing speech across society.

I agree on this point but it is very complicated. I mean, look at this very situation right? Since this one employee wrote something in her college thesis, GG is selling it as "Nintendo supports X." On the net Neogaf is referred to in a collective sense when actions are taken by moderators or discussions occur. Saying "these opinions are mine and mine alone and dont represent the firm I work for" only gets you so far.

I cant imagine how hard it must be for those in the public eye or those who, for lack of a better word, flaunt their employ. As an anonymous poster, I cant post whatever I feel like, safe in knowing it is only my opinion and hopefully cant be traced/connected to my employer. I am not sure how you resolve it all.

As an aside, I find it a bit interesting contrasting the internet to the world. I mean, here we have a pretty repressive/regressive group that organizations are cowing to. Then, you have corporations threatening Georgia over anti-LGBT legislation (which they successfully got vetoed) as well as NC for the same reason.

 

[RoninChaos]

It doesn't make sense why she was attacked in the first place. Like I've said earlier, she had nothing to do with those localizations, right?

Sometimes, people are so backwards.

Can't have facts getting the way of the lynch mob.

Of all the companies that caved I can't say I'm surprised it was Nintendo. The big 3 really need to partner up and try to stomp this kind of bullshit out.

 

[Rats Off To Ya]

Disagree. We've seen dudes gone after by the same people.

I could name a dozen women off the top of my head who have gone through more of their shit than a single man.

A lot of people get harassed to some degree. The prime targets are exclusively women.

 

[Curufinwe]

I agree. I'm sure that Nintendo had their lawyers involved in this process to ensure that they were completely covered legally for this termination.

The bar isn't exactly high in America in most employment tuations. It's basically can the worker prove this is one of the legally recognized grounds for a discrimination lawsuit line age or gender? If not, then fire away.

 

[Hard]

Hey, Nintendo has no problem allowing games that treat women like sex objects on their platforms so it's in line with their philosophy.

When did this happen?

 

[partyphone]

What? Why would Nintendo be afraid of gamergate? If anything bringing attention to gamergate is what gives it life, rather than attributing things to this anonymous bogeyman, out the particular people or accounts doing the dirty work treat them on an individual basis and let that lame entity amd its lame name die with the year 2015.

I don't necessarily think they're afraid of gamergate. it's more likely they just don't want the hassle of dealing with them. this is them attempting to wash their hands. which won't and can't work.

so not only do i feel awful for alison i feel awful for every woman working at nintendo.

 

[KuwabaraTheMan]

You can't say "Gamergate" specifically because they'll just drop it and move onto a different title under the same pretense. You have to come out against the idea, say you won't be bullied by it, or be bullied into bullying employees over it.

And it's not JUST females (by and large it is), it's about harassment in general. Having more female protagonists isn't going to help if the behind-the-scenes stuff IS the problem. That's the shit that has to change.

Yeah, that's why I said coming out against all harassment in general. I think saying "GamerGate" is still important, but you need to address all of it.

A lot of shit has to happen, both behind the scenes and in public. I think making strong commitments to female protagonists, greater diversity, etc, helps, because it helps to normalize those things within the gaming space, and to let people know that game developers are actually interested in them.

But these are just some steps. A lot of stuff overall needs to change.

 

[SinCityAssassin]

When did this happen?

We're going to dump Bayonetta 2 into this, I'm seeing.

What? Why would Nintendo be afraid of gamergate? If anything bringing attention to gamergate is what gives it life, rather than attributing things to this anonymous bogeyman, out the particular people or accounts doing the dirty work treat them on an individual basis and let that lame entity amd its lame name die with the year 2015.

The moment the Wayne Foundation joined in on the discussion was when things got real dicey.

 

[Lime]

it's the fun combination of corporate callousness and weak worker's rights.

it's super fucking painfully obvious why she got fired but they found a technicality so they're in the clear from a legal point of view. from a moral point of view: fuck nintendo.

And she didn't even have anything at all to do with any of these fucking bigots' grievances. She never did any of the changes from Japan to the US when it comes to under-age girls and sexualization.

It's fucking unjust and tragic like something out of a bad movie.

 

[Nanashrew]

We're going to dump Bayonetta 2 into this, I'm seeing.

Hopefully not.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

I agree. I'm sure that Nintendo had their lawyers involved in this process to ensure that they were completely covered legally for this termination.

I mean probably but its like there is much protection against firing in the US. You can basically be fired for anything bar race, gender or collusion.

From what it sounds like the "lateral" move was a means of compromise to keep her on given her circumstances. It would seem it simply got to the point where it wasn't going to work for them.

This could totally be true. I just don't know enough to comment on it. I'm just saying the idea that other employees will think its unfair if she isn't fired is based on the idea that this is an offense you should be fired over. And most companies have discipline policies so they don't have to pretend they care about being fair. So unless we see the policy we dunno if this is a culmination of things or just straight up they did not want to deal.

 

[KingBroly]

We're going to dump Bayonetta 2 into this, I'm seeing.

I would've gone with Metroid Other M since they own the IP, personally. It's also an example of fans standing up against a product because of that kind of shit.

 

[Orin GA]

Hate movements like GG only have any power because companies like Nintendo can't stop from prostrating themselves before them. Nintendo had control over their own reaction, and they acted in a horrific fashion that deserves criticism.

Unless you can tell me what her second job was you are just speaking out of your ass. If we find out her second really was something that in no way conflicted with Nintendo, ill be right there with you. Everyone's throwing around baseless accusations when we don't have the all the facts.

 

[kiryogi]

I mean probably but its like there is much protection against firing in the US. You can basically be fired for anything bar race, gender or collusion.

Unless you're in a union that has just cause

 

[Hard]

We're going to dump Bayonetta 2 into this, I'm seeing.

Hopefully not.

I'm not seeing it. Bayonetta is a pretty powerful female character, last time I checked.

 

[Nanashrew]

I'm not seeing it. Bayonetta is a pretty powerful female character, last time I checked.

She is. She's a great character.

 

[Lime]

Has Nintendo had a history of being more conservative? I’ve always thought of them that way, and this kinda seems like the way they’d prioritize things, if I had to guess.

(Not that I feel like this is necessarily justifiable because of a company’s rep, but I just want to know what other’s perception of Nintendo is.)

They aren't afraid to use female bodies for marketing their products, as shown in the other thread (games marketing, 3ds at e3 and for games media)

 

[LudicrousSpeed]

It doesn't make sense why she was attacked in the first place. Like I've said earlier, she had nothing to do with those localizations, right?

Sometimes, people are so backwards.

It's easy.

She's been getting harassed since October. The reason why she gets harassed is not unique: she's a feminist.

Every so often, when people start to complain about Nintendo localizations, the folks who have been attacking her all along decide to throw out her name and position and try to drag more people into their targeted harassment by suggesting she's the one responsible. It's bullshit, but that's par for the course for pretty much all of their allegations.

I mean, even the enciting incident that got this group dubbed "Gamergate" was basically new inciting information about Zoe Quinn, who had been already been a target of theirs for some time.

 

[Kinsei]

What? Why would Nintendo be afraid of gamergate? If anything bringing attention to gamergate is what gives it life, rather than attributing things to this anonymous bogeyman, out the particular people or accounts doing the dirty work treat them on an individual basis and let that lame entity amd its lame name die with the year 2015.

Ignoring them is what gives them strength. They then go on unopposed and continue to chip away at people. Had the industry not tried to sweep them under the rug then maybe this all could have been avoided.

 

[SinCityAssassin]

I'm not seeing it. Bayonetta is a pretty powerful female character, last time I checked.

That's what I mean, in the previous thread people were pointing to Bayonetta as a contradiction to Nintendo's policies and as a sort of symbolism about how they feel about women.

You know, somehow.

 

[Zambayoshi]

So what she's saying is essentially: if harassers hadn't dobbed her in to Nintendo she wouldn't have been fired.

Fair enough. She can't complain though - if you do the wrong thing you live with the consequences. Whether she was dobbed in or whether Nintendo found out itself, she's still done the wrong thing.

People who dobbed her in though, yes, they were certainly not being nice.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Unless you can tell me what her second job was you are just speaking out of your ass. If we find out her second really was something that in no way conflicted with Nintendo, ill be right there with you. Everyone's throwing around baseless accusations when we don't have the all the facts.

All signs point to Nintendo being less than enthused by her tweeting habits. To me, it would be a really curious coincidence if conveniently, this person who already had Nintendo's attention for other things just so happened to get fired for moonlighting a job with a conflict of interests, anonymously, of which the nature is entirely unknown to everyone besides Rapp and people at Nintendo. So yes, I would say it's highly suspect.

 

[partyphone]

And she didn't even have anything at all to do with any of these fucking bigots' grievances. She never did any of the changes from Japan to the US when it comes to under-age girls and sexualization.

It's fucking unjust and tragic like something out of a bad movie.

yeah. if this were a movie this would be the beginning where the main character gets fucked over and then they go and train really hard and get their revenge.

but in reality alison will probably get a job offer somewhere else and nintendo will unveil the NX and everyone will have forgotten all of this because it's not the least bit personal. and women will continue to be hounded out of games because no one with the power to do anything actually gives a shit.

 

[Opto]

Let's not forget the scariest part. What's next? This isn't over. Right now, I feel like Blizzard might become a target now that GG has had its taste of blood.

I mean Nintendo giving in has basically just confirmed the belief that women with liberal ideals aren't welcome in the industry.

 

[Jumplion]

And these people claim that "SJWs" are the ones that seek out to be offended. She literally had nothing to do with what they were complaining about.

They took down one "boogey-woman", and they'll move on to the next one. Its no fuckimg coincidence that a majority of their targets are women. That's how hate groups work - they need something to scapegoat, something to fuel the fire.

 

[fernoca]

Maybe men of color, but white dudes, nope. Not very.

Women sadly have it worse. And attacks towards them are more aggresive.

Men have to be "extremes" and usually related to (past in gay) porn. Officers, teachers, models, retail employees has lost their jobs because someone found out that they did that years earlier.

A recent trend even in this forum has been towards a white male dude even: Josh from BitBlock.

Not as huge and as orchestrated as with women and I admit that I'm not a big fan of his recent opinions and videos, but seeing how some of the last threads in here end around his nudies and his videos; doesn't make sense. Like yeah his Starfox video was bad, but what does he doing videos and posting pictures naked years ago had to do with it?

As long as someone doesn't like you they will try to attack and shame you based on anything about you. Even the avatar quotes in here are a really tame and lame of that or when people go and check your profile here or look around your post history to "show them".

Again I'm not saying "but think of the poor men". It's just the kind of situation were some just try to shame others and attack them "to show them". And that you don't even need to work in any company to have stuff found about you. Women sadly have it worse just for been women.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Let's not forget the scariest part. What's next? This isn't over. Right now, I feel like Blizzard might become a target now that GG has had its taste of blood.

I mean Nintendo giving in has basically just confirmed the belief that women with liberal ideals aren't welcome in the industry.

Eh, Blizzard has proven in the past that it really doesn't give any play to GG. If they tried it with Blizzard, I imagine that the result would just be GG looking like tools.

 

[KuwabaraTheMan]

Let's not forget the scariest part. What's next? This isn't over. Right now, I feel like Blizzard might become a target now that GG has had its taste of blood.

I mean Nintendo giving in has basically just confirmed the belief that women with liberal ideals aren't welcome in the industry.

See also: Every woman still employed at Nintendo.

This is only going to get worse. I wouldn't be surprised to see Square targeted now, too, given Star Ocean and Bravely Second.

 

[Lime]

but in reality alison will probably get a job offer somewhere else and nintendo will unveil the NX and everyone will have forgotten all of this because it's not the least bit personal. and women will continue to be hounded out of games because no one with the power to do anything actually gives a shit.

This is so true it hurts

Like massive duck said in the other thread : "ssdd"

 

[xandaca]

It's absolutely shitty that a bunch of women-haters like GG might have been able to dig up something that led to Nintendo firing Mrs Rapp, but from what they and she said, it sounds as though she probably wasn't a good fit for them as a PR representative to begin with. It can hardly be surprising that a company whose output is strongly aimed at children would have a problem with their reps talking about rape in public and if her second job (whatever it was) happened to have a similar conflict of interest and risked being made public, assuming no-one initially knew it was her, Nintendo probably felt they had no choice. If you're one of the public faces of the company, you have to accept responsibility that what you do and say will be taken as representative of that company. In the case of a children's company, particularly one as straightlaced as Nintendo, making contentious political statements - particularly related to sex - getting visible tattoos and piercings, and perhaps having a second job which was also a bad fit for company image, will not go down well regardless of the sex of the representative involved. Blaming industrial sexism in such a case would seem churlish at best. I hope Mrs Rapp finds a new job quickly and one where she feels better able to express herself without feeling under constant scrutiny, but suggesting Nintendo caved into GG pressure would seem, based on the limited information available, an extremely simplistic version of what was likely a complicated situation for both parties, even if it does sink the soul that GG got what they wanted.

 

[KingBroly]

See also: Every woman still employed at Nintendo.

This is only going to get worse. I wouldn't be surprised to see Square targeted now, too, given Star Ocean and Bravely Second.

Isn't Nintendo being blamed for Bravely Second? Or did they move onto Square?

 

[Nanashrew]

I still feel my post from the previous thread still bares repeating.

We really need to talk about these issues in gaming and not forget about them. Don’t forget about Jade Raymond’s harassment, don’t forget about Jennifer Heplar’s harassment, don’t forget Alison Rapp’s harassment, don’t forget about Brianna Wu’s harassment, don’t forget about Zoe Quinn’s harassment, don’t forget about Anita Sarkeesian’s harassment, don’t forget about Mattie Brice’s harassment.


Don’t forget GG got Intel to stop showing advertising on Gamasutra.

If this goes without discussion, expect it to happen at every company we all hold in high regard.

Also since this thread is slower it might get noticed. It's a real problem. A very, very real problem. We have a history of this in the industry and it's still happening.

 

[KuwabaraTheMan]

Isn't Nintendo being blamed for Bravely Second? Or did they move onto Square?

With Star Ocean being a thing now, I'm sure it's only a matter of time before they start blaming Square for it, too.

 

[@MUWANdo]

If those GG morons weren't so fucking dumb, they could just learn Japanese then they wouldn't have to cry every time a 3D model of a child wears more modest clothing. Instead they decide to rally around white supremacists to destroy the woman whose name appears highest in the credits. It's disgusting.

They are learning Japanese, for the explicit purpose of propagandizing to Japanese people about how feminists and xenophobes are censoring games as a means of attempting cultural imperialism. No joke.