PS4K information (~2x GPU power w/ clock+, new CPU, price, tent. Q1 2017)
- Thread starter OsirisBlack
- Start date
Hawk269
Member
Our leakers are not saying
OP says $399.99 but potentially $499.99 with a better CPU. But if price is being shared we don't know which one. Retailers being told price to gauge reactions is extremely odd thing to do if that is what us being done as someone suggested.
Our leaked said top 3 retailers so telling them price to gauge reaction is highly unlikely.
Marty Chinn
Member
So not only are you questioning our experience and knowledge as a developer, you're now trying to say we have no understanding of the industry and business model? All because it goes against what you want to believe? You're saying my 10 years of development experience and 23 years of being in the industry hasn't given me any insight to draw from? What background do you have to draw from these conclusions that all of us posting are not correct?
Heck, let's take a step back and simplify things since you keep going off on tangents. Answer the following questions.
1) Do you believe it takes more time or the same amount of time to do PS4 and PS4K versus PS4 only?
2) Do you believe it takes more money or the same amount of time to do PS4 and PS4K versus PS4 only?
3) Do you believe it takes more resources or the same amount of time to do PS4 and PS4K versus PS4 only?
4) Do you believe Day 1 patches are a result having enough time or not enough time?
gundamkyoukai
Member
Not that much unless you think devs or pubs really going to put much work into PS4K games.
I see them just brute forcing stuff just like how they do on PC .
It's not like they program for titans and any other number of high end cards .
And this well be even easier with the tools i sure sony going to provide .
ninjablade
Banned
What? I only heard one so called developer spout none sense that doesn't make sense, we have a insider here claim that developers are happy about this
Which video is that from?
wapplew
Member
Not much. Forward compatibility within same architecture make port more easy then different architecture I guess.
I'm assuming it means you'll be able to play all your old games right from the disc without having to buy a remaster. I can easily see this being the way to solve the BC problems.
gundamkyoukai
Member
New MM game Dreams .
qa_engineer
Member
And some that are thinking what's the fuss about? It's another x86 platform to account for. Big whoop.
Marty Chinn
Member
Here's a few in this thread including myself.
Cross gen games are ports of the same game. Usually even developed by different teams. Forward compatibility in the scenario of a PS4K as we are discussing in this thread, is just a term reassuring that games will run on both devices PS4/PS4K with just different graphical settings/profiles.
gundamkyoukai
Member
Thanks. Much appreciated
Yea this has been something that devs have been doing on PC, and it'll be the same situation for this.
You're describing backwards compatibility, I'm talking about PS4K playing PS5 games.
Well that truly depends on how all of this pans out I think. I think from now on you'll be getting hardware with pretty much the same architecture but just more power.
qa_engineer
Member
Yep. These consoles are custom x86 machines utilizing semi custom PC hardware, running a custom operating systems. Assuming there isn't a major departure from pssl, gnm/gnmx, and hardware providers I can see backwards compatibility and forward compatibility issues being a thing of the past. But that's just my opinion.
THE:MILKMAN
Member
Yeah this could be a big problem in the future when PS9 buyers demand games still work on their PS4 in the basement.
Devs can't be expected to create games that work well on 10 iterations. So there would have to be a cut-off. Which defeats the purpose.
What a mess!
ninjablade
Banned
ok why do dev's bother optimazing for a gpu like a 280x, putting all those graphic options, and running much better then the ps4 version, when amd gpu's are not really great sellers, and probably don't even move 100k per game on that particular gpu.
Prisoner KSC2-303
Member
Quick question, do those saying this'll be merely akin to the PC market also assume future consoles will have myriad graphics settings for each game?
That's a complete unknown for now. Historically, a generational jump meant also a completely different, exotic and proprietary processor/GPU architecture with X10 or more increase in performance. That made completely impossible for the previous device to play games from the new platform. With X86 architecture, while forward compatibility can be theoretically possible, the computational requirements of PS5 games in terms of memory and/or processor/cpu power can make it impossible to run on the PS4/PS4K. Maybe Streaming services and infrastructures would be mature enough by that time to enable that, but as I said, it's a complete unknown for now.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
I never said you, personally. But I also said, just because someone said, "I am dev", does not all of a sudden have a barometer of weight. People can register with ID@Xbox now and say, "I am dev", so do not take my comment personally. However, what you are saying is also not shared as a consensus, because there are those who are on board with this as well.
Obviously more to all of the above, however, unless you have been briefed on this, are you in liberty to discuss the added time and cost will not see a larger return in the long run if this is successful?
Again, why would development waste their time/resources on PC with myriad more of configurations to account for, if the current console model is the bliss and best way to do it?
Well, we are already seeing games now with options to lock/unlock framerate, as well as enable/disable/adjust % of PP effects on the consoles. I do not believe it will go too much further beyond that at this point in time however.
wapplew
Member
For the sake of argument, let's say PS4 LTD will be 100m scenario 1.
PS4 80M + PS4K 20M scenario 2.
1. Dev make one configuration for 100M install base.
2. Dev make two configuration for 100M install base.
Now, PS5 release.
1. Dev make two configuration for 100M + whatever PS5 sold at that time or one configuration for whatever PS5 sold at that time.
2. Dev make three configuration for 100M + whatever PS5 sold at that time or two configuration for 20M + whatever PS5 sold at that time.
I could be so wrong but that's what I think going to happen.
Also, PS5 adoption rate for scenario 1 going to be much faster than scenario 2 because of first party exclusive push and less people wait for PS5.5.
GHG
Member
Sony will decide when the cut off point is any simply cut support for any models they deem to be too old. This is the way that Apple does it and how hardware vendors like AMD and Nvidia do it on the PC. You might still be able to run new games on old unsupported hardware but there are no promises anymore, they make it clear it's unsupported.
Ah I see. That's just a bit selfish no? This is all meant to make the community and userbase larger, not shrink it with each iteration. As an owner of a 980ti I can tell you that just because the same games I play can run on a 750ti they will be doing so with nowhere near the same quality. Nvidia is not tricking anyone, that's a ridiculous statement.
The more I think about it, the less this whole thing makes sense. People ITT are saying it's about retaining install base, but the forward compatibility thing doesn't really fit that. But like you said, unknown.
I don't trust this chart for the sole reason that the person who made it decided to make it go up to 60 feet..
They will probably do three configurations, ps4 ps4k and ps5, at ps5 launch, kind of like cross gen, and swap to just 2, ps4k and ps5, a year into ps5.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
I think some posters have a good point where the games will still be developed/optimized with the OG PS4, then like the PC more often than not, smoother frames and the easier added effects will be 'brute forced' by the 4K box probably aided by tools in the SDK.
Hope these devs are ready, that is a lot more configurations to plan for. ;P
Sorry, had to. Don't be mad devs.
True, but I m pretty sure we are not choosing which resolution to watch a movie at a theater with pricing tiers (not yet anyway, thank goodness)... so it is kind of a irrelevant chart for home theater usage. And even more irrelevant for theater usage, since you do not have a choice of resolution in the matter. Also pretty sure, as mentioned, theater screens are on average 4 times larger than 120", which makes the 60ft look that much sillier.
Apoleptica
Banned
Ever been to a theater?
Bitch Pudding
Member
Those charts are stupid. They use a measure system only three countries in the world use: Liberia, Myanmar, and that other one. Why not use the metric system like the rest of the civilized world...
Not one with a 120 inch screen
Negotiator
Banned
Not really.
Cell was a "Proto-APU" (sort of), just like the Emotion Engine was a "Proto-Cell". It was a hybrid processor, just like AMD APUs are. It had the traditional CPU part (PPE) and the SIMD-heavy/GPU-like part (SPUs). Guess which one was the hard part to program for.
Radeon CUs are the evolution of Cell SPUs. GPGPU wouldn't have existed without Cell. Crazy Ken wasn't so crazy after all. Cell definitely influenced the semiconductor industry. It's not dead, it still lives inside modern GPUs, just in another form (just like extinct dinosaur DNA still living inside modern birds' DNA
). It even lives inside the Xbone GPU (even though it has less ALUs/ACEs/queues, it still adheres to the same GPGPU concept).The PS4 is a GPU-centric system, while the PS3 is a CPU-centric one. You could say that the PS4 is an "inverted" PS3.
Both systems require excellent CPU-GPU cooperation to yield the best results. Uncharted 3 & 4 have proved this.Devoting more resources to the CPU than the GPU is a historical "anomaly", since most gaming systems (including PCs, consoles, portable devices) dedicate more transistors/power/die space to the GPU compared to the CPU.
Yeah, so many people that don't like the idea of upgrading their gaming platform will be buying gaming PC's en masse. Lol
jhmtehgamr20xx
Banned
Good shit, and all on point.Not really.
Cell was a "Proto-APU" (sort of), just like the Emotion Engine was a "Proto-Cell". It was a hybrid processor, just like AMD APUs are. It had the traditional CPU part (PPE) and the SIMD-heavy/GPU-like part (SPUs). Guess which one was the hard part to program for.
Radeon CUs are the evolution of Cell SPUs. GPGPU wouldn't have existed without Cell. Crazy Ken wasn't so crazy after all. Cell definitely influenced the semiconductor industry. It's not dead, it still lives inside modern GPUs, just in another form (just like extinct dinosaur DNA still living inside modern birds' DNA
The PS4 is a GPU-centric system, while the PS3 is a CPU-centric one. You could say that the PS4 is an "inverted" PS3.
Devoting more resources to the CPU than the GPU is a historical "anomaly", since most gaming systems (including PCs, consoles, portable devices) dedicate more transistors/power/die space to the GPU compared to the CPU.
TBF, there aren't many devs in the industry period with artists of that caliber, either.It's insane that Dreams is ONLY using compute for it's graphics per Media Molecule.
This is insane to me. When people say that the leap from the PS3 -> PS4 wasn't that big of a leap, it just leads me to believe that they don't understand what the PS4 can actually do. And that devs are also still working in the 2nd generation of PS4 games.
No triangles, just GPGPU/Compute software based rendering on the GPU and this what you get in Dreams.....
Prisoner KSC2-303
Member
Interesting. So, if we head down a route where forwards compatibility is entrenched, and there are multiple variants of a console out, do you still think there'll be so few options?
It seems to me that the likeness of "well it's already done that way on PC" is a flawed comparison without the true flexibility to adjust major aspects like resolution in order to allow the user to tailor things. Without that, the onus will be on developers to spend extra time optimising for multiple machines.
wapplew
Member
That Nvidia thing is abit much but that's what I think, but we used to it so not much complain there.
Back to your point, 3 years iteration doesn't guarantee community will not shrink.
First, it will affect PS5 adoption rate, which will make dev less likely to make used of it, hence less desire for gamer to switch, then it'll turn into one big chicken and egg mess.
Second, quick iteration will likely drive hardware arm race, iteration will be shorter and shorter! Sony can't afford that.
Thrid, the more console adapting PC model, the more advantages MS will gain.
Since all MS game already cross with PC, they could release new iteration every year like surface, a steam box thing that can play all PC(UWA) games.
Sony need to stay away from PC model as much as possible IMO.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Not really.
Cell was a "Proto-APU" (sort of), just like the Emotion Engine was a "Proto-Cell". It was a hybrid processor, just like AMD APUs are. It had the traditional CPU part (PPE) and the SIMD-heavy/GPU-like part (SPUs). Guess which one was the hard part to program for.
Radeon CUs are the evolution of Cell SPUs. GPGPU wouldn't have existed without Cell. Crazy Ken wasn't so crazy after all. Cell definitely influenced the semiconductor industry. It's not dead, it still lives inside modern GPUs, just in another form (just like extinct dinosaur DNA still living inside modern birds' DNA
The PS4 is a GPU-centric system, while the PS3 is a CPU-centric one. You could say that the PS4 is an "inverted" PS3.
Devoting more resources to the CPU than the GPU is a historical "anomaly", since most gaming systems (including PCs, consoles, portable devices) dedicate more transistors/power/die space to the GPU compared to the CPU.
Nice! Learn something new every day.
Not sure if you know, but is the X1 chip in their TV's and Home Theater equipment based off The Cell as well? I remember in the past they wanted to incorporate it in other electronics.
It is possible, but I do not think it will be as much as the PC.
I think most are using that argument in comparison to development time/resources being spent now, more so than the options available to the end user.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
And this is all thanks to Compute in the PS4's GPU. Guys please realize that there's years to go before the OG PS4 will be tapped out. Probably 2019 at the earliest.
That and with a 60 million user install base is why it won't be left in the dust. PS4 will still be getting great games, but PS4k will just give devs more headroom.
And it is. But to retain the install base in the playstation platform, not to a specific device. The more engaged an user is on a platform, the easier will be to retain him.
GamerMax73
Member
What feet and inches? I can't remember if the other country to use them are the US or UK?
Ahh, I get what you mean by civilized
(The chart was meant to show the theory of viewing distances, I suppose I should have commented with my thoughts on its general accuracy. The theory's sound though - the further away you sit the larger the screen needs to be other wise the difference in detail between 1080p and 4K becomes indiscernible. I suppose I should use my poor google-fu and find the right formula).
Papacheeks
Banned
It was a while back in this thread, there were people talking in absolutes like they 100% knew how this was going to play out in be positive for the industry. Me and I would say even you along with others are just being wary about this apprach.
Now that couple developers have chimed in to put their 2 cents in, it helps balance it out a little. But 20-30 some pages back there were a couple not going to name people as I outed them for how they were dismissing peoples discussions.
What's going on now is 100% fine and what it should be discussion. But 20-30 pages back there was a lot of people asserting themselves as knowing better than other's with no bearing as to why.
And because we don't know much at this point it was a "I'm right, your wrong" kind of talk that really is bullshit, when others bring their concerns.