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[family_guy]

There are developers that will negatively impacted by this. You think there won't be? You can't just dismiss inconvenient truths.

We're supposed to be having a debate about it, not just dismissing criticism, and there are legitimate arguments against what we think is going to happen with the splintering of the user base, the development teams and otherwise.

Its not like flicking PC settings at all for this kind of thing.

So how does it work with mobile platforms like iOS where you have multiple hardware configurations?

 

[Muzicfreq]

So how does it work with mobile platforms like iOS where you have multiple hardware configurations?

Few very few but really working across the board to to very similar specs.

Android though I have seen some apps not compatible with my stuff

 

[teh_pwn]

Few very few but really working across the board to to very similar specs.

Android though I have seen some apps not compatible with my stuff

In this comparison Android is PC. Many hardware configurations and software customization.

PS4/PS4K is iOS. Walled garden, one maker, few configurations, similar approach, same software.

 

[EventHorizon]

Interesting stance, but I wonder if any sort of studio can afford that. The performance pushers will make use of PS4K, either the budget way ("we market with PS4K footage, now stop optimizing") or the pro-PS4K owner way ("let's improve this") - if they don't, competition will take advantage of that. For stuff such as visual novels, I guess it makes no change at all.

First, the PS4K market will be trivial in size in comparison to the PS4 market for quite some time. Other than the marketing purposes of showing PS4K images in promotions, there is going to be very little economic incentives to do a lot of work for the PS4K. For example nobody is going to avoid buying Horizon: Zero Dawn because the PS4K version doesn't look substantially better than the PS4 version.

Instead PS4K optimized games are going to be additive, not subtractive. People might buy a PS4K game they wouldn't ordinarily get simply because it looks so good. Killzone: Shadow Fall owes many of its sales to this effect on the PS4. The game was meh to many, but it was a graphical showcase title for the then new PS4.

Second, there are going to be some relatively simple graphical improvements that a game could implement like better shadows, draw distance or anti-aliasing that PS4K games will do because they can without much effort. At the end of game development there are plenty of optimizations that simply involve turning stuff off or toning it down. PS4K versions won't need to have as many of these cuts as its PS4 counterpart. So for a game like Watch_Dogs, the graphical downgrade that happened on the PS4 wouldn't be necessary on the PS4K.

However I want to repeat again that any specific development for the PS4K would always be strictly optional. Developers would only do it if they thought they'd make more money than they had to spend in order to make a PS4K specific version. No developer is going to bust the bank chasing after the fraction of the faction of the PlayStation market that both owns a PS4K and who also would not buy a game they otherwise would just because it didn't look better than the PS4 version.

 

[StrongBlackVine]

I doubt it. It would literally be bad business to comment.
NPD for the next two months going to be Interesting ™.

No they will be easy PS4 wins, May in particular. This speculation is not going to have of an effect on the average consumer yet.

 

[ninjablade]

There are developers that will negatively impacted by this. You think there won't be? You can't just dismiss inconvenient truths.

We're supposed to be having a debate about it, not just dismissing criticism, and there are legitimate arguments against what we think is going to happen with the splintering of the user base, the development teams and otherwise.

Its not like flicking PC settings at all for this kind of thing.

yes it is. this just depends how much effort the developer wants to put in, if developers are porting there games to powerful AMD gpu's that won't even sell 1% of what the game would sell on ps4k. i don't see how it would effect them negatively unless people think finding the perfect console presets for the game is hard work, people do that stuff in day or 2 on youtube for free.

 

[MatrixMan.EXE]

There are developers that will negatively impacted by this. You think there won't be? You can't just dismiss inconvenient truths.

We're supposed to be having a debate about it, not just dismissing criticism, and there are legitimate arguments against what we think is going to happen with the splintering of the user base, the development teams and otherwise.

Its not like flicking PC settings at all for this kind of thing.

How though? Smaller developers will make a game to PS4 OG specs and it'll STILL work on PS4K.

Y'all are acting as if these won't be the same console. It'll be EXACTLY like flicking PC settings on and off.

 

[teh_pwn]

How though? Smaller developers will make a game to PS4 OG specs and it'll STILL work on PS4K.

Y'all are acting as if these won't be the same console. It'll be EXACTLY like flicking PC settings on and off.

If Sony provides the proper APIs, this should be way more trivial than PC game development. In theory you should be able to develop for PS4 and the APIs auto build binaries for a PS4K build with auto-enhancements. Then any developer that wants to go further than that may manually adjust a branch for PS4K. In theory.

 

[MatrixMan.EXE]

Agreed, that's exactly how I imagine it working. It's just a question of if Sony will make it that easy I guess.

 

[pixellated_man]

You guys fold too easy. This is a complete dumb decision and nothing will change that fact.

And lol at people who are against this being boiled down to not having the best system as the reason. This isn't PS4 vs XB1, multiple hardware releases changes the whole idea why people buy consoles in the first place.

I keep seeing people making these patronizing generalizations, as if they speak for all console owners. The reasons you buy consoles is not the same for everyone.
I'll copy paste my reply to another poster, who like you, thought they had the authority to speak on behalf of every console user:

"I've always preferred consoles over pc's and your cited reason is not the reason why. The (largely) plug and play nature of consoles, games on physical media (allows for sharing, trading in, selling), friends / family being on consoles and most importantly - exclusive games that I like (and not available on PC) are the reasons why I am primarily a console gamer. And I am sure a lot of others prefer consoles for some of these very reasons too."

 

[family_guy]

I think this is more likely to push people towards PC gaming.

If you're already in the ecosystem, especially if you've invested mostly in digital purchases that can't be transferred, I doubt it.

 

[pixellated_man]

Do you have seen AC Unity? That's what happens to the weaker hardware when games are thought with higher specs in mind.

All your point proves to me is that it's happening regardless of the ps4K and it's on developers to make sensible targets for their games. Adding the ps4K into the mix will have little to insignificant impact.

 

[Mister Megative]

First, the PS4K market will be trivial in size in comparison to the PS4 market for quite some time. Other than the marketing purposes of showing PS4K images in promotions, there is going to be very little economic incentives to do a lot of work for the PS4K. For example nobody is going to avoid buying Horizon: Zero Dawn because the PS4K version doesn't look substantially better than the PS4 version.

Instead PS4K optimized games are going to be additive, not subtractive. People might buy a PS4K game they wouldn't ordinarily get simply because it looks so good. Killzone: Shadow Fall owes many of its sales to this effect on the PS4. The game was meh to many, but it was a graphical showcase title for the then new PS4.

Second, there are going to be some relatively simple graphical improvements that a game could implement like better shadows, draw distance or anti-aliasing that PS4K games will do because they can without much effort. At the end of game development there are plenty of optimizations that simply involve turning stuff off or toning it down. PS4K versions won't need to have as many of these cuts as its PS4 counterpart. So for a game like Watch_Dogs, the graphical downgrade that happened on the PS4 wouldn't be necessary on the PS4K.

However I want to repeat again that any specific development for the PS4K would always be strictly optional. Developers would only do it if they thought they'd make more money than they had to spend in order to make a PS4K specific version. No developer is going to bust the bank chasing after the fraction of the faction of the PlayStation market that both owns a PS4K and who also would not buy a game they otherwise would just because it didn't look better than the PS4 version.

There's no common sense or reason allowed HERE, friend.

 

[pixellated_man]

It's almost as if some people are willing Sony to fail just to prove their point, lol.

 

[The God]

If you're already in the ecosystem, especially if you've invested mostly in digital purchases that can't be transferred, I doubt it.

Guess we'll just have to wait and see. I doubt there's many console gamers itching for an upgrade.

 

[Lady Gaia]

There are developers that will negatively impacted by this. You think there won't be? You can't just dismiss inconvenient truths.

Evidently it's okay to make them up out of whole cloth, though. The real story is that developers can be negatively impacted by just about anything. Natural disasters. Changes in exchange rates. Acts of terrorism that are inconveniently like major plot points in their games. In practice, though, there's nothing quite so catastrophic as a generation shift, so trying to come up with a more graceful approach to technical evolution is at least an attempt to address one of their biggest pain points.

Its not like flicking PC settings at all for this kind of thing.

... and you say that based on what evidence? It could be exactly that easy, and if Sony has thought this through at all then it really will be. Enabling one common binary that runs on two differently spec'ed machines with a common OS and API is utterly achievable if that's Sony's design goal. Here's hoping it will be, which we won't know for sure until a lot more information is available – but it seems extremely likely.

 

[DeepEnigma]

The average developer can be as misinformed and have just as bad judgment on evaluating the business side of this industry as can the average gaming aficionado.

Yeah. This elitist complex I am starting to see is troubling.

The condescending, "no wonder people say devs are lazy", does not help, because most of us who study market trends, sales, etc., ignore and do not subscribe to that level of thinking. I have lots of friends in the industry, and been a part of developing cycles, and seen crunch times first hand, and would never think to question their work ethic.

Just like my previous career, the training regiment and conditioning I had to go through does not have me going around thinking the average person is lazy because they would not be able to keep up physically or mentally.

It's just childish shit tossing. As some have said, if publishers and developers were not on board, this would not even be happening.

Like anything new, we will have first wave growing pains, and the market will dictate it's success.

That isn't even be remotely true. The PS4K will be fully backwards compatible with the PS4. If a developer wanted to, they could pretend the PS4K didn't exist. They could make their normal PS4 game and it would run perfectly fine on the PS4K. Support for the PS4K is totally optional.

This.

Interesting stance, but I wonder if any sort of studio can afford that. The performance pushers will make use of PS4K, either the budget way ("we market with PS4K footage, now stop optimizing") or the pro-PS4K owner way ("let's improve this") - if they don't, competition will take advantage of that. For stuff such as visual novels, I guess it makes no change at all.

It is not a whole lot different now with some developers being more talented than others getting the most out of each system. A good game is a good game, regardless if one has more bells and whistles.

As others have said too, there will more than likely be SDK tools to aide as well. I am positive it will not be a thrown to the fire scenario.

 

[RoboPlato]

It's almost as if some people are willing Sony to fail just to prove their point, lol.

Even if this console doesn't do well, Sony isn't going to fail because of it. They just won't do it again if it doesn't take off or they get a lot of pushback. It's an experiment, one that I personally like as long as the timing is right. Early 2017 is great timing for me as someone who bought a PS4 on day 1.

 

[BriareosGAF]

It's almost as if some people are willing Sony to fail just to prove their point, lol.

As someone who works in the industry, at a certain point you have to let it go and realize these discussions aren't about the thing they purport to discuss, but some weird post hoc rationalization of a position already taken. Or as Nietzsche so aptly put it:

Accordingly, I do not believe that an "impulse to knowledge" is the father of philosophy; but that another impulse, here as elsewhere, has only made use of knowledge (and mistaken knowledge!) as an instrument.

"Winning" a discussion when one has no real understanding of the topic is a game in and of itself I suppose.

 

[Mister Megative]

It's almost as if some people are willing Sony to fail just to prove their point, lol.

The panic and hyperbole in this thread are utterly insane. Consoles will march on.

 

[spatenfloot]

He basically said that it will be announced earlier than we think and that it will release around the same time the PS4 did.

So a 2013 release date?

 

[katsubento]

So a 2013 release date?

This was funny. I enjoyed this post.

 

[Papacheeks]

The panic and hyperbole in this thread are utterly insane. Consoles will march on.

Not if it's rejected, or causes confusion if not well explained. Then there's the impact of console sales, and early adopters for next generation.

 

[Boke1879]

Not if it's rejected, or causes confusion if not well explained. Then there's the impact of console sales, and early adopters for next generation.

Nothing is going to change lol. So OG ps4's won't sell anymore? Even at a cheaper price point?

 

[pixellated_man]

If Sony released a PS4 Slim with 4k scaling, UHD blu-ray playback, 4k video streaming and what not, nobody would care. That's irrelevant for owners of the previous version. It's the 100% extra gpu that's the problem. If it doesn't make much of a difference, why release it at all? And if it makes a difference, how are og PS4 owners not going to see "sacrifices" being made in their version of the game?

We don't need the ps4K to show us 'sacrifices' made to our ps4 games...we already have pc's that do this job right now.
And when Xbox 1.5 gets released soon we will have another console to remind us of all the 'sacrifices' made to our ps4 games. At that point I imagine some of you will suffer panic attacks, lol.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Not if it's rejected, or causes confusion if not well explained. Then there's the impact of console sales, and early adopters for next generation.

Luckily, people are conditioned with all aspects of life with upgrade options. Luckily, they have had PC's and Smartphones with the ecosystem where one app (game) works on the several optional devices to choose from and are forward compatible/backward for the next version when they choose to upgrade next.

The message really will not be all that confusing to market. I will do it for free for Sony/MSFT right now...

Same software works on both. You have two options for machines that will play this same piece of software. One will take more advantage of 4K scaling and possibly perform a little better, as well as play UHD BluRays, the other is the same PS4 everyone is enjoying, and a more affordable price of entry, for your 1080p needs.

It really is not hard at all. Especially the world of the smartphone ecosystem the average consumer is used to. I get presented with upgrade options in the retail world on the daily. This is nothing out of the realm of left field for most electronics purchasers.

We don't need the ps4K to show us 'sacrifices' made to our ps4 games...we already have pc's that do this job right now.
And when Xbox 1.5 gets released soon we will have another console to remind us of all the 'sacrifices' made to our ps4 games. At that point I imagine some of you will suffer panic attacks, lol.

Lol. Gaf will be on crisis watch.

the general population of ps4 owners are going to see it the same way they see almost every consumer device in history, the new one performs better. That's it. No one is going to see sacrifices, they are going to see enhancements to the new one. People understand that concept.

You can bang the "sacrifices" drum all you want, but it's clear that these are two specs with similar capabilities with one being more powerful than the other. Anyone who has bought a phone or a PCs understands this concept.

Edit: Beaten (dunno how I missed this post) and well said. All of a sudden we are lemmings with no options for anything in life.

It is almost like some inside joke being spewed to make console only gamers to seem that much less intelligent than other tech consumers, lol.

 

[pixellated_man]

the general population of ps4 owners are going to see it the same way they see almost every consumer device in history, the new one performs better. That's it. No one is going to see sacrifices, they are going to see enhancements to the new one. People understand that concept.

You can bang the "sacrifices" drum all you want, but it's clear that these are two specs with similar capabilities with one being more powerful than the other. Anyone who has bought a phone or a PCs understands this concept.

In a nutshell.
Couldn't have put it better.

 

[Metfanant]

how are og PS4 owners not going to see "sacrifices" being made in their version of the game?

Why not flip the script, and look at it from another viewpoint...

There are no sacrifices made for OG PS4 games...but there are enhancements made to PS4k games...

Look at the PS4 version as the version everyone is intended to play...the PS4k just enhances the experience slightly due to its beefier hardware...

 

[orochi91]

Sold my PS4 for $400, and I was gifted $60 worth of Walmart giftcards.

I have ~$500 ready for PS4K at this moment, so I hope it isn't that much more expensive here in Canada.

 

[RoboPlato]

Sold my PS4 for $400, and I was gifted $60 worth of Walmart giftcards.

I have ~$500 ready for PS4K at this moment, so I hope it isn't that much more expensive here in Canada.

You sold your PS4 a month before Uncharted 4 for something that comes out in a year?

 

[katsubento]

Sold my PS4 for $400, and I was gifted $60 worth of Walmart giftcards.

I have ~$500 ready for PS4K at this moment, so I hope it isn't that much more expensive here in Canada.

Seems premature.

 

[GnawtyDog]

Sold my PS4 for $400, and I was gifted $60 worth of Walmart giftcards.

I have ~$500 ready for PS4K at this moment, so I hope it isn't that much more expensive here in Canada.

Where are you going to play Uncharted 4?

 

[DeepEnigma]

Why not flip the script, and look at it from another viewpoint...

There are no sacrifices made for OG PS4 games...but there are enhancements made to PS4k games...

Look at the PS4 version as the version everyone is intended to play...the PS4k just enhances the experience slightly due to its beefier hardware...

Glass half full versus half empty.

Agreed with your perspective.

 

[mitchlol]

I'd love to see iterative consoles become the norm. It would mean things like controllers/arcade sticks/ steering wheels wouldn't become useless at the start of a new generation. Sony could just keep iterating on the platform and save time/money from having to develop a new API every single generation. Everything would be backwards compatible so digital libraries would be worthwhile. A new box every 3-4 years to keep up with PC tech (relatively) Devs would know the hardware through and through because the only change between boxes would be the resources available.

Just as others said, it would be like flicking a switch between what settings/effects are enabled between the different SKUs, it's already done like this between PC/PS4 and PS4/XO

 

[orochi91]

You sold your PS4 a month before Uncharted 4 for something that comes out in a year?

Seems premature.

Where are you going to play Uncharted 4?

Games are too pricey at launch here in Canada due to shit currency (~$75 + tax), so I end up waiting several months anyways for discounts.

Hopefully by the time PS4K comes out, I'll be able to snag it at a much cheaper price, possibly with that single-player DLC that ND has planned.

 

[timmyp53]

Seems premature.

I've seen like 2 other people on Neogaf say the same thing. It amuses me considering this thing may not come out to spring-fall 2017. Guess they really trying to get in that trade in value while they sill can.

 

[EventHorizon]

Not if it's rejected, or causes confusion if not well explained. Then there's the impact of console sales, and early adopters for next generation.

What early adopter doesn't already own a PS4? By their very nature early adopters would have bought the PS4 at launch. People buying now are by the definition of the term late adopters. When the PS4K comes out there will be a $399-$499 high end PS4K and there will be the standard $249-$299 PS4. Late adopters are not the market for the PS4K, early adopters are. Late adopters are going to be eating up the lower priced PS4.

The PS4K is going to still be outsold by the PS4 not because it will be a flop, but because the PS4 is going to be hitting ever increasing mass market prices. On top of that the new console will not be a traditional generational leap. Nobody is going to miss out on playing a game because they own a PS4 instead of a PS4K. The PS4K will get an initial early push from the gaming enthusiasts who have to have the latest and greatest, but after that it is going to be a long slow burn before it even comes close to overtaking the PS4.

The PS4K can't fail because it is just the higher end version of the exact same PS4 product. Its relationship to the PS4 will be defined by the word AND not the word OR.

 

[Kyoufu]

Games are too pricey at launch here in Canada due to shit currency (~$75 + tax), so I end up waiting several months anyways for discounts.

Hopefully by the time PS4K comes out, I'll be able to snag it at a much cheaper price, possibly with that single-player DLC that ND has planned.

Jimmy Kimmel will probably spoil some major scenes before then. You made a mistake.

 

[RoboPlato]

Games are too pricey at launch here in Canada due to shit currency (~$75 + tax), so I end up waiting several months anyways for discounts.

Hopefully by the time PS4K comes out, I'll be able to snag it at a much cheaper price, possibly with that single-player DLC that ND has planned.

Ah, I always forget about the Canada pricing.

I live pretty close to the border so it's always surprising to me there's such a gulf in pricing.

 

[jeffram]

In a nutshell.
Couldn't have put it better.

There will be people that want details, but in general it's a simple message. "The 2016 model PS4 is more powerful"

Simple.

 

[orochi91]

Guess they really trying to get in that trade in value while they sill can.

This is exactly why I sold it now.

When PS4K gets officially announced, the used market will be flooded with vanilla PS4s.

I managed to get $400 on a 2 year old PS4.

PS4K official announcement would lower that resale value by quite a bit.

 

[Prisoner KSC2-303]

We don't need the ps4K to show us 'sacrifices' made to our ps4 games...we already have pc's that do this job right now.
And when Xbox 1.5 gets released soon we will have another console to remind us of all the 'sacrifices' made to our ps4 games. At that point I imagine some of you will suffer panic attacks, lol.

That's fine for multi-format titles, but with PS4 exclusives, there's always been the sense that you're playing the best version of a title that isn't available elsewhere.

As much as it's sneered at, prestige to some consumers is a big selling point, and Sony themselves have leveraged this concept as much as anyone, advertising their console as the most powerful. When someone buys that console, and it proves a success, it'll probably be more acceptable to many to have that power eclipsed by a competitor than by the original company. It's in essence removing its own unique selling point, and one that - with knowledge of console generation cycles - one might've assumed to remain in place for a few more years.

 

[orochi91]

Jimmy Kimmel will probably spoil some major scenes before then. You made a mistake.

I will embark on the greatest media blackout known to man.

I may even skip the review thread entirely.

D:

Ah, I always forget about the Canada pricing.

I live pretty close to the border so it's always surprising to me there's such a gulf in pricing.

Yea, currency has tanked a fair bit the last 6 months, but it seems to be climbing ever so steadily lately.

Hopefully that translates to lower Canadian launch prices for PS4K.

 

[Boogz]

Sold my PS4 for $400, and I was gifted $60 worth of Walmart giftcards.

I have ~$500 ready for PS4K at this moment, so I hope it isn't that much more expensive here in Canada.

You are going to be waiting a while for that ps4k

 

[KZObsessed]

2017?

 

[orochi91]

You are going to be waiting a while for that ps4k

Time to tackle that PS3 backlog in the meantime.

T_T

$400 for a launch unit was too tempting to pass on.

 

[StrongBlackVine]

This is exactly why I sold it now.

When PS4K gets officially announced, the used market will be flooded with vanilla PS4s.

I managed to get $400 on a 2 year old PS4.

PS4K official announcement would lower that resale value by quite a bit.

You sold your PS4 possibly a year early. I assume you have something to play games on?

 

[badb0y]

I got the 20th Anniversary PS4 so I am probably never going to sell that lol.

 

[DeepEnigma]

I got the 20th Anniversary PS4 so I am probably never going to sell that lol.

I wouldn't, lol.

 

[Boogz]

Time to tackle that PS3 backlog in the meantime.

T_T

$400 for a launch unit was too tempting to pass on.

This man has a good plan. That's pretty good you got rid of it for $400. Man my ps3 backlog is so heavy. Thanks for the reminder.