wapplew
Member
I doubt they'll get higher margin, or expand audience, but true about more profit per customer, because I feel my wallet tears already.
I gotta cut off some expense, maybe buy less games this year, fuck.
PS4K information (~2x GPU power w/ clock+, new CPU, price, tent. Q1 2017)
- Thread starter OsirisBlack
- Start date
I doubt they'll get higher margin, or expand audience, but true about more profit per customer, because I feel my wallet tears already.
I gotta cut off some expense, maybe buy less games this year, fuck.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
That got you Jr'ed? LOLOLOLOL! Would they also Jr Mark Cerny? GPGPU is actuallya real thing. Do only 5 people on the forum know about it?
CosmicQueso
Member
This post gets it. This is a good post.
HarryKS
Member
Yes, upon further inspection, you are correct. They are using the angles to hide the flaws mostly.
wapplew
Member
A PS4 slim with 4K output is enough for that, no need 2X the GPU.
CosmicQueso
Member
Sure there is. $100 or so extra retail price with improved performance for all facets of what the console offers.
$100 higher price that people will pay.
And a higher price that will put it in line with other 4K Blu Ray players.
Nightengale
Member
I apologise. That was not my intent. I was just giving a very sweeping, generic statement that imo, covers the broad generlsation of why "Sony" would think this is not a problematic execution. I'll go into more detail.
Let me frame my arguments first. I do not really have any deep-seated opinions or strong perspective on whether or not this is a bad thing or not. My timeline and my arguments are built on the assumption that Sony will do it, and I'm thinking from the angle of why are they doing this & what is a good execution of this plan.
Historically, consoles have been a loss-leader product, where profits are not recouped until year 2/3. When this happens, along with the fact that software development are becoming more and more expensive and take longer to make, it invites the desire to keep a product relevant a long time, because to create a new SKU is creating of another loss leader that has profitability impact.But when consoles (well, the PS4 at least) are now profit drivers? Suddenly there is a much stronger incentive to introduce new products, especially one that is built on top of R&D of the previous model, as they are potentially new profit additions to the pipeline.
In theory, and I say theory, a successful execution of the PS4K model, is the not all that different from how Apple sells 2-3 generations of iPads/iPhones at different price points, all reaching out to their peak audiences while squeezing out the most money from the "hardcore" double-dippers and upgraders for maximised ARPU.
In theory, anyway.
The merits and fears of the inability for the console market to adopt the short-upgrade cycle is definitely a concern. But there are enough external market shifts and evidence to imply that the fear is probably not as large as perceived. Dedicated GPU card markets are growing exponentially YoY, showing a strong demand for power among enthusiast. In the phone market (I'm not just talking US, but globally), the cycle of upgrades have been shortened significantly, as more and more people are looking at annual/bi-annual/tri-annual upgrades of smart phones, even at full cost. There are market signs of consumers already being "conditioned" to being okay with upgrade cycles up-to-3 years, and if the rumors pan out, PS4K comes after 3 years, which is the stretch timeline for phone upgrade cycles globally.
From a technology and core platform perspective...
In the past few years, everyone has been talking about "platforms, platforms, platforms" in a way that is not hardware-fixed. Account-based system, digital, virtual console, "evolutionary" consoles, backward/forward compatability, x86 PC model. An evolutionary platform, one that builds off the foundation of the previous version. The very nature of such a model instead of large generational leaps practically implies that timelines between the platforms are shorter, because new models can exist to be just a profit driver on its own, and do not have to hinge itself on creating new software platforms, but hinge on legacy products.
If they are targeting twice the PS4 processing power i don't think it leaves much doubt which node they will use...
Could work out in their favor. The average gamer is old enough to have had a stable career for a while, and have disposable income to spare.
The 4K threads got me Jr'ed
Edit:
These
4K Support : could it have a influence on which Next Gen Console you buy?
4K Video Gaming is already here (Toshiba Video Demo )
Could 4K take PC Gamers out of the Desk Space Ghetto & into the Comfy Couch Suburbs?
Strange that PS4K has people talking about leaving console gaming to build PC's but that wasn't what I meant lol
Edit2: That quote from the 1st thread is to on point I scare myself
I agree... What rush will they have to move into PS5, as you say? None imo. Some famous developers have yet to release their first game specifically created for the PS4... We are in 2016. Some people are really expexting a new generational PS by 2018... or even 2019? Could be completely wrong but imo that's unlikely.
Would 10nm not be enough for the PS5?
Exactly, it seams like some folks on Gaf thinks performance increases out of thin air, it's die shrinks that massively contributes to performance increases. That's not happening at the same rate anymore. The only reason there is possibly a PS4k is that everyone is moving to 14nm chips, if the PS4k is real then no way the PS5 will be out before holiday 2020. The benefit is that PS5 could be on 7nm chips with HBM3 memory modules in holiday 2020-2021.
anothertech
Member
Calling it now.
Sony is going to pull an E3 2013, and the The PS4K will actually be 4x the power of PS4 with ddr5x memory (which will be available by then) and games will be rendered at 4K. This kind of power will eek out a hardware win against the Xbone2 surprising MS once again.
These controlled retailer leaks are what Sony WANTS their competitors to think...
You heard it here first.
Sony is going to pull an E3 2013, and the The PS4K will actually be 4x the power of PS4 with ddr5x memory (which will be available by then) and games will be rendered at 4K. This kind of power will eek out a hardware win against the Xbone2 surprising MS once again.
These controlled retailer leaks are what Sony WANTS their competitors to think...
You heard it here first.
CosmicQueso
Member
Who knows... Maybe this is what extends PS4's life to 2021 or so.
It's not like publishers can afford another increase in development costs that something like native 4K (PS5) would result in over the next 3 years.
And with so many countries with developing economies like Brazil, Eastern Europe, Canada, with large markets trailing in both PS4 and 4K adoption, there is no rush to PS5. And it helps Sony make good on the 10 year cycle comments. These markets also make PS4K exclusives highly unlikely. No one is going to limit their market like that.
OG PS4 will still sell amazingly around the world, new box allows them to hit the price insensitive 4K early adopters, everyone's happy.
Except GAF.
It's not like publishers can afford another increase in development costs that something like native 4K (PS5) would result in over the next 3 years.
And with so many countries with developing economies like Brazil, Eastern Europe, Canada, with large markets trailing in both PS4 and 4K adoption, there is no rush to PS5. And it helps Sony make good on the 10 year cycle comments. These markets also make PS4K exclusives highly unlikely. No one is going to limit their market like that.
OG PS4 will still sell amazingly around the world, new box allows them to hit the price insensitive 4K early adopters, everyone's happy.
Except GAF.
potatohead
Member
Early adopters who want PS5 are not going to wait 3.5 years for PS5.5.
I know I wont.
Why not another PS4 in 2019, and another in 2022, and so on? Why still have the old concept of generations when they can easily have all the advantages of it with none of the pain.
Nightengale
Member
Because new numbers are cool. (marketing logic)
Glorified G
Member
Depends. The early adopters at launch are not the same audience that bought one in 2015. Sure there are people who would day 1 a new Playstation regardless and they're other people who will never go over a specific price point ($299 last holiday for example). But perceptions are going to change if this refresh has significant performance advantages for games. 3.5 years is not a long wait.
wapplew
Member
Hard to argue with this. Great points.
Something I wish to add.
Let's see, about dedicated GPU card markets are growing, that's still pretty low if you compare to console sales.
So, nvidia sold over 1m of 970 & 980 at launch quarter, it's massive number of product that sold at $329 and $549. (I might wrong on price) But it's still no where near gen 8 launch numbers.
Could we say the adoption rate of PS4K,a product that aim to the "hardcore" without any exclusive, will be in similar fashion?
So, three years later, will the next iteration affected by diminish return? Tech advancement won't be as impressive, no exclusive software to push adoption rate because they need to be fully compatible with past iteration.
Yes, it will be the ideal for console manufacture to go "evolutionary" way. They could stretch a "generation" as long as possible.
But it's not ideal for me. I don't want console turn into an evolutionary platform like PC/mobile. It's the only product left that not following PC/mobile model.
Traditional generation bring invention, excitement. Which is why we excited to know what NX will be.
Evolutionary console will be predictable and boring, every iteration is the same just more powerful.
They can't introduce new invention that fully embrace by developers, just like all mobile game will only use all the feature invented with the first Iphone or PC with keyboard and mouse (nothing wrong with that)
I just don't want console turn into that, I have my PC for that, I want my console keep it uniqueness.
Bitch Pudding
Member
Yup, but 32x stupid ones.
Eventually all the electronic devices we use for recreation or communication will consolidate into one. After some mulling I don't think iterations are aimed at keeping consoles alive versus other platforms so much as focusing on the market that's left and riding it out until they wholly drop the hardware altogether and become service brands.
Gazabazaorp, your also forgetting that cooling itself has become a focus of many CEs. Fury X is an excellent example of a small form factor GPU. I could see Sony increasing TDP as long as the cooling is bullet proof.
StrongBlackVine
Banned
Since when is this forum a barometer of mainstream success?
Since when is this forum a place that has rumors people go crazy saying real even with convincing evidence that tons of news media covers?
nx controller #teamskeptical
Could a 8.6 Tflop Fury X type of GPU shrink to 10nm? Wouldn't that be a sufficient enough jump for a PS5?
Ugh please no... That makes me thing of the game streaming stuff -.-
gundamkyoukai
Member
That would only be 5 times the power of PS4 give or take .
Which would make it the smallest jump gen wise Sony has ever done .
Hell 4k would take up most of that but i guess they can use lower res like normal .
EDIT with PS4k that would less than 3 times the power .
It's the future expect for VR games i would say .
Not even till ISPs stop screwing people over and the world is fully connected since some places cannot really get internet
For the mainstream like i said, there's too many options out there between this year and the next one: NX, NX handheld, Phones, PS4, PS4K, PSVR, Vive, Oculus, TV 4K, X1, etc. Thats why i think it wont succed.
Maybe i'm wrong and Sony (if they ever release it) will succed. But thats my take on the matter.
If Sony finally announce something or we get more info ill think more about it.
vpance
Member
Nah, but 2 of them for 17.2TF would be doable for a proper jump. Multi GPUs will be the solution to increasingly difficult node shrinks.
Honestly, I'm not expecting the typical 7x-8x jump, as it seems difficult to achieve with the current node process, especially those hoping for 7nm. I'm expecting no more than 10 tflops for the PS5.
7nm chips would be the goal.
That's quite the leap which I think would need more development time or we could start to see xbo sized systems from PlayStation in the future for cooling purposes.
FrozenCell
Member
has it?That chart has always been bullshit
the 2006 version seems pretty close to the snellen eye chart:
- 100" from 10' means 40 degrees field of view
- horisonatal res of 16:9 1440p is 2560 pixels
- 2560 pixels / 40 FOV = 64 pixels per degree
- adult 20/20 vision has 60 PPD
otoh the newer chart the other poster showed demands some insane 'higher than 8k' (16k?) for 100"
Brad Grenz
Member
Snellen visual acuity tests a very limited situation and makes no attempt to account for color, motion, emitted light versus reflected, etc. But you're right, the 2006 chart is just a mathematical extrapolation of Snellen, it's just that there isn't any research saying that it is applicable to display resolutions of filmed or rendered content.
FrozenCell
Member
Prioritizing immersion, I've been sitting closer than 10' to 100" for years, so for 1920 pixels I get 44 PPD, which for native 1080p entertainment is easily good enough, computing otoh has pixels visible in a way that makes me desire higher PPD
Sorry, I wasn't saying you claimed those things. I was just listing the only possibilities as far as pricing goes. I should've clarified.
Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew
Banned
It'll still satisfy the 8 year minimum lifecycle that everyone's expecting without falling in Apple territory.
wapplew
Member
Until MS launch something more powerful in 2018, then change of plan.
Big Green Anus
Member
Is Dreams 60fps? There was a nice gif that was 60fps, but I think all the videos I saw were 30fps.
immortal-joe
Member
Way too much smoke at this point, best to accept it. I imagine higher-ups within the organization are trying to figure out how to handle this from a communications perspective.
Tub time with Cery.
60 fps with such graphic? :/
By the way the only good thing about the ps4k is if it means to play bad port like The Evil Within, at higher fps, I'll buy it immediately. Man this game runs terribly on ps4, it's barely playable. What a pity.
We are talking of rumours based on 'Mister X tell me', 'Miss Y confirmed', a lot of chats without any concrete evidence. Sony has nothing to worry. They never denied to think about ps4.5 but this year seems too much premature and useless. They can just reply 'we think about it but not now'. End of the story.
THE:MILKMAN
Member
Had a thought. Could it be that we get a standard PS4 slim with 4K playback at the original $399/$349 and a new premium PS4K at $499 per the OP?
Everyone is happy? Too expensive for Sony?
Everyone is happy? Too expensive for Sony?
No, I can't see this happening. While I never asked about a slim of og ps4, I'm sure it's coming since the other sku will be a slim.
I'm not convinced that would change anything.
PS is a global brand, any gains Xbox makes in the US and/or UK will be offset by domination throughout Europe and the rest of the world.
Barring any PS3-style fuck up, I don't see Xbox ever overtaking PS again, regardless of how powerful those consoles are.