MADGAME
Member
No worries, I was just clarifying too.
Don't forget the rumored Xbox iterative console too.I can imagine future DF face-offs.
PS4K > PS4 > Xbox One
Arrrgggghhhhhh...
PS4K > PS4 > Xbox One > Xbox 1.5
PS4K information (~2x GPU power w/ clock+, new CPU, price, tent. Q1 2017)
- Thread starter OsirisBlack
- Start date
PS4K > PS4 > Xbox One > Xbox 1.5
You think it's helpful to the developers decrease console life cycle? Far the opposite, cost will raise more and company needs to grow furthermore their investment. This thing it's just healthy for the Sony bank. And there is even the risk to invest in something which the market will not accept at 499 bucks. Better for them to keep the price point to 399 if they want to risk less.
Or to be sure with the higher price, to have enough revenue with the lower sales expectations. Sony can't allow another useless investment. Hope they know what they do.
FalsettoVibe
Member
So is it coming or not.....?
This whole thing has me confused. Are these two consoles happening/real?
Doubtful
yurinka
Member
Consoles are a huge portion of the gaming market, and PC a niche. Games are made with the console in mind because they are the biggest portion of the business.
This is why games aren't that optimized for PC, and if you buy a super expensive PC you only get some extra FPS, resolution and sometimes textures and effects. Until 2 or 3 years later your PC can't provide an optimal experience when compared to consoles in the most recent AAA games.
Makes sense that they will target the consoles, specially the best selling one. And then scale for the rest. So games would focus PS4, until the installed base of PS4K become higher than the normal PS4.
MADGAME
Member
This is misleading because your quoted wasn't what Phil Spencer actually said. If one reads the article, he says he's not a "big fan" of the the XB1.5. He does not outright say there will not be one.
Also, many pages back one of the verified sources in this thread was asked about this and said he/she can't disclose what he knows as that would identify him/her. If this isn't happening, there would be nothing to know.
I believe they're doing a proper architecture change that will result in a significant power boost to X1 making it the premium out-of-the-box UWP machine. With Win10, and DX12 do they actually have to keep X1's architecture to achieve backwards compatibility?
cyberheater
PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 Xbone PS4 PS4
Or worse still.
Xbox 1.5 > PS4K > PS4 > Xbox One
Actually. If that was the case. I'd buy a Xbox 1.5.
KojiKnight
Member
See, this is something people are SAYING but have absolutely no proof of.
I get it, in a perfect world this is what will happen... but in a realistic world, this is going to be the PS4 versus XBO, only inside it's own ecosystem.
Look at current gen XBO games, where sub 1080p is the norm, and where quite often developers allow for more aggressive frame rate drops. This isn't simply just turning down performance for weaker hardware, this is not optimizing the game for the weaker hardware. This is the future of the PS4 versus the PS4K... Developers will work hard to make their new games look super shiny on the PS4K because that still produces the best looking stills for video game websites, while the regular PS4 will be an afterthought.
You won't see these developers releasing PS4 shots after the PS4k is released, you won't see them talk about performance on the PS4 (at least not after a few months) versus the PS4k after release and you'll see a slow decline on quality control on the PS4 the longer the PS4k is out.
Missleading article title. Here is what he has said in full:
"I’m not a big fan of Xbox One and a half. If we’re going to move forward, I want to move forward in big numbers," Spencer said. "I don’t know anything about any of the rumors that are out there, but I can understand other teams’ motivations to do that. For us, our box is doing well. It performs, it’s reliable, the servers are doing well. If we’re going to go forward with anything, like I said, I want it to be a really substantial change for people – an upgrade." - Phil Spencer
This could mean many things, including they are willing to soon release a big upgrade to Xbone.
Goose_Se7en
Banned
Sorry for not reading only the OP, but I say Sony bring on this PS4.5/PS4K or w.e. it's called.
At first I was like "no please Sony don't do this" why? Because it would immediately make my PS4 irrelevant and knowing me I'd feel like I'd have to get this new PS4 system.
But now I'm warming up to this idea. Think of all the game analyses and face-offs DF has done when PC comes out on top because of better hardware.
For someone like me, who isn't interested in building a PC rig and all that hoopla, PS4.5 is awesome. Get a more powerful box, that can run new and better looking games in addition to my old library? Bring it on.
At first I was like "no please Sony don't do this" why? Because it would immediately make my PS4 irrelevant and knowing me I'd feel like I'd have to get this new PS4 system.
But now I'm warming up to this idea. Think of all the game analyses and face-offs DF has done when PC comes out on top because of better hardware.
For someone like me, who isn't interested in building a PC rig and all that hoopla, PS4.5 is awesome. Get a more powerful box, that can run new and better looking games in addition to my old library? Bring it on.
Cereal Enthusiast
Banned
Yeah I agree, Microsoft needs to bury the name 'Xbox One', they need a complete new name (Xbox something, but not One). 'Xbox One' just have a negative image in the mind of a lot of people.
PdotMichael
Banned
Games aren't optimized for the Xbox One? What the hell?
Sidewinder
Member
Xbox Infinity - it's the only way to go!!
The bolded part is extremely unlikely. If the price info is correct, that would leave Sony with a 499 dollar SKU while their biggest competitor would have a console for essentielly half the price.
This means Mr Wayne is right.
It could also mean they've been blindsided by their competitors and won't be ready to release and are saying this so it seems they simply chose not to.
PdotMichael
Banned
What I'm supposed to see outside of the fact that the PS4 version is better because of its better hardware?
I say the same thing. I really think MS plan was to release Windows 10 devices like STBs & Tablets that will play Xbox One/UWP games then this move from Sony put them in a bad place with that.
boredandlazy
Member
I'm still curious how MS would go about an upgraded XBO since they have to account for eSRAM improvements and such. It's not as clear cut as an upgraded PS4 would be and likely requires more R&D.
Sony going first will also open the gates to MS going above them in power, which is an interesting scenario.
CosmicQueso
Member
Given your hypothesis (developers are too lazy to optimize for ps4 now) then the release of a newer, faster model will have no impact to what you see as the current state.
If you think devs are lazy and the games suck, you should find another hobby.
You should certainly stop concerning yourself with new models of PS4 if the lazy dev angle is your position. A lack of new model will not make developers less lazy.
Because that's what your argument boils down to isn't it.
Keihart
Member
Developers using PC as their baseline platform? really? like when this became the most common baseline? are you serious?Still hasn't that's why even if PCs are a lot more powerfull than consoles you usually don't see the change in games until new generations launch.
I mean, how old are Titans and the like? older than this gen for sure, and uncharted 4 is one of the most impressive games visually even with imperfect IQ, and haven't even released yet.
I find it really bizarre that Sony are going to do this. I mean the Ps4 is a runaway success and they must be making serious cash from it.
So why risk that or even why bother with this new version. It's pretty obvious the masses don't need it as the PS4 is selling so well.
Also what is Microsoft gonna do? They surely can't let Sony develop another console above the current xbox spec...
This is mental really that this is happening. Looking forward to seeing what happens!
So why risk that or even why bother with this new version. It's pretty obvious the masses don't need it as the PS4 is selling so well.
Also what is Microsoft gonna do? They surely can't let Sony develop another console above the current xbox spec...
This is mental really that this is happening. Looking forward to seeing what happens!
I hadn't really been following it, but 4K TVs are falling in price like crazy, it seems. There is a 55 inch Samsung for $999 at Best Buy. It seems like Sony believes it's going to be the living room standard and feels they have to have a product to support it. I mean, I'd never buy a 4k Blu-Ray player ... But, I'd get a PS4 that does that as well. They may be placing the wrong bet, but they must believe the data supports their move.
potatohead
Member
They are pretty much getting blindsided by VR as well.
someone else read the article.
PS4's design was fantastic. And yes they will use efficiencies to reduce tdp, but only of the og model which can be $199 post 28nm. Sony will want a premium model however, and that means more power.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Why does the article title put it in quotes as if Spencer said it like that, yet there is nothing in the article quoting him saying it just like that?
And if he did for the sake of argument, he is lying, and playing the 'semantics' game. Meaning, that is 'not what we are going to call it' or 'it is not going to be a traditional console, we have this nice product called Win 10'.
Otherwise, he is just a flip/floppy as a politician just to spin a narrative at the time.
Very good point.
Thank you. So tired of seeing that argument in these threads, lol. It has no merit.
vpance
Member
I'm guessing manufacturing ESRAM that's 4 times the size to fit 4K frame buffers would still be difficult even if shrunken with 14nm. It's probably in their best interests to move to a regular PC setup with DDR4 and GDDR5.
jeff_rigby
Banned
Correct but many of us expect hardware able to use the bandwidth available with HBM2 or 3 which would be Zen + Polaris + HBM and about 6-8 TF. GDDR5X is cheaper and 2X the bandwidth of GDDR5 and one of the points that allow a cheap PS4.5 iteration.
The XB1 to use GDDR5X would also need a Southbridge ARM SoC Media TEE with it's own memory. The OS would need many changes to support this none the least is that the Xtensa accelerators being inside the APU can be used for game features that can't be supported when it's in Southbridge. Then you have with HBM the ARM IP gets moved back into the APU. You see the issues here, it doesn't make sense. The comments from Spencer reflect this and trying to stretch logic for another meaning is I think shortsighted.
Over at Semiaccurate in 2013 an article was predicting Sony might have iterations on the PS4. Sony takes a radically different approach to the PS4 lifecycle
My post in 2013:
A major reason for moving the ARM IP from the APU to Southbridge with it's own 256MB of DDR3 was to be able to use GDDR5. Microsoft's XB1 can not use GDDR5 because it would not allow legal Standby power modes. The design also can't use GDDR5X while the PS4 can. This may be why: "There'll be no Xbox One.5 from us,' says Phil Spencer." Microsoft with HBM can support low power standby and high performance games and I think they will wait for that.1) Notice the design of the PS4 lends it'self to a easy refresh/upgrade. The AMD APU is separate from the Custom second chip which contains the ARM IP, TEE level DRM, IPTV, HDMI 2 and secure boot....This allows a stripped down simple to upgrade AMD GAME APU while the really important stuff, from Sony's viewpoint (UI and social media support, TV RVU, IPTV and 4K media support), is in the second custom chip and it doesn't need to change.
2) Sony appears to be trying to make PS4 to PC GAME porting easier by not using custom anything, relying more on HSA GPGPU than custom hardware accelerators.....Is this for PS4 to PC porting or PS4 to PS4.1 and PS4.2 transitions.
A PS5 using HBM can move the ARM IP back into the APU and Southbridge will be a part of the SoC rather than separate. At this point I don't see a need for a semi-CUSTOM chip and the XB2 and PS5 would be using generic parts maybe identical.
As far as a PS4.5 is concerned I am still of two minds, it's possible but I see Sony using efficiencies to reduce the TDP and cost rather than increase performance. Given Microsoft not releasing a XB1.5 I think the latter is more likely.
Wouldn't that cause an issue with legacy compatibility though?
I'll paint a picture for you, in the next few years over the air TV is shutting off a lot of people who don't have new STBs & TVs as they move to support 4K & mobile TV at this time the market is open for anyone to take over the STB market & PlayStation is looking like the top contender right now & having the 4K PS4 will keep them ahead of the curve & give them a platform other than their 4K TVs to sell 4K movies & also have 4K PlayStation Vue when cable , satellite & over the air is at a disadvantage & can't roll out their 4K receivers fast enough to stop the train as PlayStation pick up more subscribers.
potatohead
Member
This is a really good point.
TV is probably a huge reason why PS4K is happening. There is an ongoing change in the TV market right now for which a PS4K placement is ideal if Sony gets it right.
CosmicQueso
Member
It's the modern version of having a DVD player in the PS2 is many ways, but with infinitely more potential.
Great summary.
From a business perspective, this alone is worth the risk of a niche % of disgruntled gaming fans.
Definitely. I'm stunned that 4K prices are as low as they are now. I was contemplating getting a top of the range 1080p TV for the foreseeable future but 4K has landed much quicker than I thought and the amount I was willing to spend before can get a pretty large (for me) 4K TV nowadays. By the time I actually have the money for it in a year or two what's available will be even better and cheaper.
Yeah, 4K is happening and if Sony has a system that can take advantage of it, especially for media, then they stand to open up their lead even further. For all those who don't own a current generation console the PS4K will be a no brainer.
holygeesus
Banned
When there is more 4K material I want to watch than 1080p and lower, then and only then would I consider a 4K TV, so it's a way off yet!
How do 4K sets handle scaling of 1080p console games to their native resolution nowadays? Are we going to end up with a situation, where games look better on the inferior console, but play less smoothly?
How do 4K sets handle scaling of 1080p console games to their native resolution nowadays? Are we going to end up with a situation, where games look better on the inferior console, but play less smoothly?
But if that was the case Phil Spencer wouldn't have even mentioned hardware upgrades in his speech last month. Thats what got this whole ball rolling in the first place about mid generation console hardware upgrades.
Having the 4K games will also accelerate the 4K TV take over because so many people who will have the PS4K but no 4K TV is going to be temped to make that jump & that help Sony with Ultra & 4K Blu-ray & PlayStation Vue 4K whenever that happen.
Chronospherics
Member
If it intends to upscale games and other content to 4k, then it makes sense that the hardware would be quite a bit more substantial.
vpance
Member
MS has good SDK devs, I'm sure they can emulate it if it comes down to that. Of course that says nothing about it being easy though. So I wouldn't be surprised if Sony is further ahead with PS4K design and support wise.
LukasTaves
Member
Not really.
Cell was a "Proto-APU" (sort of), just like the Emotion Engine was a "Proto-Cell". It was a hybrid processor, just like AMD APUs are. It had the traditional CPU part (PPE) and the SIMD-heavy/GPU-like part (SPUs). Guess which one was the hard part to program for.
Radeon CUs are the evolution of Cell SPUs. GPGPU wouldn't have existed without Cell. Crazy Ken wasn't so crazy after all. Cell definitely influenced the semiconductor industry. It's not dead, it still lives inside modern GPUs, just in another form (just like extinct dinosaur DNA still living inside modern birds' DNA). It even lives inside the Xbone GPU (even though it has less ALUs/ACEs/queues, it still adheres to the same GPGPU concept).
The PS4 is a GPU-centric system, while the PS3 is a CPU-centric one. You could say that the PS4 is an "inverted" PS3.
Devoting more resources to the CPU than the GPU is a historical "anomaly", since most gaming systems (including PCs, consoles, portable devices) dedicate more transistors/power/die space to the GPU compared to the CPU.
That's a *very* liberal interpretation of what actually happened XD
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Exactly. With the UHD Blu-ray bonus as well.
Yep. MSFT wanted that pie just as much, but fucked up the message too early by blowing their entire load on gamers at the Xbox One reveal.
How are they decreasing the life cycle if they are making titles compatible across the board?
And they aren't going after the entire market, they are going after people like me who upgrade to the slim versions anyway or buy second consoles. People like me who have the money to spend. I would have spent more on consoles past two years but they haven't given me a reason to yet. That might change now.
4k is an even scale so 1080p pretty much looks the same as on a 1080p display, just with the added benefits of HDR and such. That even scale could potentially allow for more ways of improving the image over a standard upscale as well.
People personify things, it's what we do. It is bullhsit, but we do it nonetheless.
It is interesting how that quote has mutated over the years. Your remix is almost fascist. The original quote was
What is wrong with it? The actual quote I mean, not your interpretation.
The discipline thing I had to look up and it is fake. http://www.1up.com/news/celebrate-ken-kutaragi-greatest-hits
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Yep. I was blown away how crisp and 'native' the PS4 looks on the new 4K set I got. Even the 900p Battlefront looks just as good as it did on my 1080p display, probably due to it being scaled by the PS4 before the X1 chip upscales the 1080p in my TV.
What would MS gain from a higher spec'ed Xbox One over getting people to use Windows store on PC & other Windows devices? Xbox Live is the only thing keeping Xbox as a console alive & at the moment MS probably don't see a benefit in making a more powerful Xbox One just to sell Halo to a few million people when they can sell Minecraft to 10 - 100 million people on all type of devices without wasting money making new hardware that people might not be willing to pay for.
Kenzodielocke
Banned
Hope it releases this year..
Omnistalgic
Member
Yeah, that quote always baffled me. He was just saying he wants PS3 to be so desirable, you would get a second job to afford it. "The gen doesn’t start until we says it does" was more arrogant. Appropriate as the the then market leader, but still prideful.