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[esmith08734]

What do you mean?

Like, "Save my mother from Lex.."

It came off as super forced with his..

"Save Martha...even though you don't know where she is, who she is, who has her, etc."

 

[Fady K]

That's interesting. I never thought of it like that. If he knew Bruce's mother name was Martha it would make more sense for him to say it in that moment.

Because let's be honest, if he didn't know, it wouldn't make much sense.

Yeah, that's what I meant...this is what I feel makes the most sense.

Because you shouldn't have to make assumptions to fill holes in a bad script. Maybe Supes x-ray visioned Batman and did some googling on Bruce Wayne, but how hard is it to show that? This movie has two separate scenes where main characters watch .avi files on a USB drive, yet it wastes no time showing how Lex uncovers Superman's secret identity or how Superman uncovers Batman's secret identity.

On the Martha subject, the intent of the scene is obvious, it's just a clumsy resolution that was poorly handled. They needed Batman and Superman to bond, so instead of any shared ideology or values they went with the obscure bit of trivia that their mothers have the same name. In order to make it work in the movie, they need Superman to utter a line that he would have no reason to suspect Batman would respond to, using his own mother's first name, then another character has to run into the scene and explain to Batman that Martha is his mother. It's hamfisted.

I agree that in a film that went as far as to show that e-mail (which I personally had no problem with at all), it SHOULD have shown such an important plot point. However, when we were able to see Clark listening in to Alfred communicating with Bruce at Luthor's party, I felt that we were given enough ammo to make that connection. To be honest i was happier not knowing that Clark may have known because that made the whole Martha scene more surprising and emotional for me, as in I wasn't expecting it.

The martha scene is a bit hamfisted, especially with Lane's coincidental and perfectly timed arrival. But I understand why he used Martha with the little time he had before potentially getting killed off.

 

[Chichikov]

Huh? That's some mental gymnastics. You can't buy that Batman could change his tune when he realizes that Supes mother is in peril. After his Mother was killed? How does it make Batman stupid when he realizes that Superman has the same beating heart as his own. That he's not just this alien creature. That he cares in his dying breath about his mother? That's a stretch to you? Would you rather he said Fuck your stupid mother and kill him.

I mean that's just odd...

He can change his mind, but again, Batman makes the case that he is this existential danger to humanity that must be dealt with at all cost, and I think that finding out that he have a mother should not have any bearing on that conclusion.
Let me give you an example, since Snyder love him some 9/11 imagery, would finding out the Osama Bin Laden has a mother and that he loves her very much would change your opinion about the danger that he poses and about what we should do to fight him?
And just so we're clear, I'm not comparing Superman to Bin Laden, I'm saying that the issues that Batman had with Superman should have nothing to do with whether he had a mother or what her name was, and that made his change of mind on him feel abrupt and arbitrary.

 

[gamz]

Because you shouldn't have to make assumptions to fill holes in a bad script. Maybe Supes x-ray visioned Batman and did some googling on Bruce Wayne, but how hard is it to show that? This movie has two separate scenes where main characters watch .avi files on a USB drive, yet it wastes no time showing how Lex uncovers Superman's secret identity or how Superman uncovers Batman's secret identity.

On the Martha subject, the intent of the scene is obvious, it's just a clumsy resolution that was poorly handled. They needed Batman and Superman to bond, so instead of any shared ideology or values they went with the obscure bit of trivia that their mothers have the same name. In order to make it work in the movie, they need Superman to utter a line that he would have no reason to suspect Batman would respond to, using his own mother's first name, then another character has to run into the scene and explain to Batman that Martha is his mother. It's hamfisted.

Spending time during a fight to understand each other ideologies would even be more of a stretch, and silly as hell.

 

[gamz]

He can change his mind, but again, Batman makes the case that he is this existential danger to humanity that must be dealt with at all cost, and I think that finding out that he have a mother should not have any bearing on that conclusion.
Let me give you an example, since Snyder love him some 9/11 imagery, would finding out the Osama Bin Laden has a mother and that he loves her very much would change your opinion about the danger that he poses and about what we should do to fight him?
And just so we're clear, I'm not comparing Superman to Bin Laden, I'm saying that the issues that Batman had with Superman should have nothing to do with whether he had a mother or what her name was, and that made his change of mind on him feel abrupt and arbitrary.

I think having a dramatic incident as Batman had in his childhood absolutely makes it relatable to Batman. Esp if their Mothers share the same name and all those memories come rushing back, and he see's Superman as human with the same thoughts and feeling of his own instead of this Monster, and he questions himself and what he's doing. I don't know why this is a stretch? I mean it worked for me, but if it didn't work for you then cool. No point in discussing further. Not everything works for everyone.

 

[RDreamer]

He can change his mind, but again, Batman makes the case that he is this existential danger to humanity that must be dealt with at all cost, and I think that finding out that he have a mother should not have any bearing on that conclusion.
Let me give you an example, since Snyder love him some 9/11 imagery, would finding out the Osama Bin Laden has a mother and that he loves her very much would change your opinion about the danger that he poses and about what we should do to fight him?
And just so we're clear, I'm not comparing Superman to Bin Laden, I'm saying that the issues that Batman had with Superman should have nothing to do with whether he had a mother or what her name was, and that made his change of mind on him feel abrupt and arbitrary.

The mother thing doesn't clear Superman of everything, I don't think. What the mother in danger thing does is offer Batman a chance at redemption. He can finally do what he couldn't years ago. That plus the fact that there's obviously something going down that only Superman can try and take on at the same time helps, too.

The fight with Doomsday makes Batman realize he needs meta humans now because dangers have escalated exponentially. Before the fight he assumed his legacy was going to be ridding the world of this escalated danger, but now he realizes there's more, bigger danger out there that really does need Superman's help.

Then at the end Superman sacrifices himself, and that's important. It means he didn't turn bad, like Batman has cynically thought. He stayed good up until sacrificing himself.

All those things add to the puzzle of bringing batman back on the right path. Superman's funeral is supposed to have a profound effect on him. That's why the movie is bookended with the two funerals. One made him batman, and the other brought him back on the path.

 

[Can Crusher]

What do you mean?

I believe he would just say "mother", "he has my mother". Instead of calling his mother by name. That was weird and completely forced. Obviously it's forced for a reason, given the outcome.

Batman's reaction is patently ridiculous, just piss poor writing.

 

[DeathyBoy]

I believe he would just say "mother", "he has my mother". Instead of calling her mother by name. That was weird and completely forced. Obviously it's forced for a reason, given the outcome.

What, you don't call your parents by their first name? That's beta as fuck.

 

[matrix-cat]

Spending time during a fight to understand each other ideologies would even be more of a stretch, and silly as hell.

I'm not saying they have a philosophical debate while punching eachother. The bonding/friendship thing would only work in a competently-written movie where the two share more than scene in costume before fighting to the death and then becoming besties. Honestly, any conclusion to the fight in this movie that isn't one of them dying is going to be silly and contrived because they wrote themselves into such a corner. There's no way to make Batman's change of heart believable after his "1% = absolute certainty" speech. Especially not after clearly showing that he has no compunctions about taking lives.

Batfleck treats this grudge like a righteous cause, like he's personally saving the world from this horrific destructive force. Realising that Superman has a mother, that he's not just a mindless destructive force but actually a man, might mean something to a more traditional take on Batman. A Batman who ascribes some value to human life. Not this Batman, though. We've watched him kill like ten guys already, and immediately after this scene he goes and kills more, and all of those guys had mothers, too. Superman is still exactly as much of a threat as he was when Batman started his crusade, he's still completely unchecked; absolutely nothing has changed except now Batman knows their mothers have the same name.

 

[FeD.nL]

Third viewing coming up. Looking forward to it tbh since the first re-watch already made me appreciate it a lot more than the initial viewing.

 

[Can Crusher]

What, you don't call your parents by their first name? That's beta as fuck.

Know what's Beta? Batman's reaction to Superman's mother's name.

 

[NumberTwo]

Know what's Beta? Batman's reaction to Superman's mother's name.

Know what's even more beta? When the Kryptonite gas begins to wear off and he gestures to Superman with his hands...."now hold now! It was just a prank bro!" After all that big talk, he becomes a bigger punk than Red from the movie Friday.

 

[DeathyBoy]

Know what's even more beta? When the Kryptonite gas begins to wear off and and gestures to Superman with his hands...."now hold now! It was just a prank bro!" After all that big talk, he becomes a bigger punk than Red from the movie Friday.

Know what's even more beta? Saving your woman from drowning while she's trying to grab a staff, then drowning yourself trying to get that staff yourself.

 

[Joe Shlabotnik]

I still don't know how people didn't get that Bruce being lifted by bats was a metaphorical dream thing, you're seeing a kid levitating in a swarm of bats, now im sure bats can't do that and Bruce can't fly, of course its a dream! what else would it be.

It's the first few minutes of a superhero movie so it's still establishing what is possible in the movie universe. I didn't know what to think at first, but yes, he explicitly say it's a dream after a few moments.

 

[Zzoram]

It's the first few minutes of a superhero movie so it's still establishing what is possible in the movie universe. I didn't know what to think at first, but yes, he explicitly say it's a dream after a few moments.

Even so, it looked dumb and dragged on too long. They only tossed out the "it's a dream" line after the scene too, so the whole time you're watching it you think this Batman can fly now?

 

[Gordon Shumway]

Lol don't be clowns. That terrorist dude is dead as shit. Superman fucking lied.

I pictured him swooping in, cupping the back of his head ever so gently while embracing him tightly..turning his body around just before impact. Their eyes connect once the dust from those flimsy African walls settles. Superman puts his lips to his ears and whispers "Consider this mercy."

 

[Zzoram]

I pictured him swooping in, cupping the back of his head ever so gently while embracing him tightly..turning his body around just before impact. Their eyes connect once the dust from those flimsy African walls settles. Superman puts his lips to his ears and whispers "Consider this mercy."

They would've had time for that if there wasn't so much slow motion of bullet casings.

 

[Alandrus Sun]

Come on dude. He doesn't ask for her help in the email, and if I was Batman I would assume Superman might know another super being, hence that scene.

We get it, you hate the film lol

That makes sense, Batman thought WW was like Superman and though they knew each other because they had super powers.

Batman didn't ask for WW's help.

If he thought she was in league with Superman then why would he send her a playful email? Wouldn't he consider her just as dangerous as Superman? The point is that the, "I thought she was with you" line only works if he has no idea who she truly is and what she is capable of. However, we already see in the movie that he was able to learn that she is not exactly human before the DD fight.

 

[Can Crusher]

Know what's even more beta? Saving your woman from drowning while she's trying to grab a staff, then drowning yourself trying to get that staff yourself.

 

[Firemind]

If he thought she was in league with Superman then why would he send her a playful email? Wouldn't he consider her just as dangerous as Superman? The point is that the, "I thought she was with you" line only works if he has no idea who she truly is and what she is capable of. However, we already see in the movie that he was able to learn that she is not exactly human before the DD fight.

She said boys don't share.

Then Bruce shares.

lol it's not that hard to understand.

 

[b&jy77VjiKn$#F]

Know what's even more beta? Saving your woman from drowning while she's trying to grab a staff, then drowning yourself trying to get that staff yourself.

:lol

 

[MegaSackman]

Know what's even more beta? When the Kryptonite gas begins to wear off and he gestures to Superman with his hands...."now hold now! It was just a prank bro!" After all that big talk, he becomes a bigger punk than Red from the movie Friday.

Prior to that there's a good joke in the film in which the staff is thrown into the water to save Superman except that then Superman needs that staff to save the world.

If they had recorded laughs for the moment Lois recognize she is an idiot, it would have been the lighter tone the movie needed.

 

[Speculator]

The way I observed that moment was Superman having been battered, beaten, and accepting his death, utters his last words that Lex Luthor has a woman named Martha. It's the dying clue trope. Martha's not a word used as a weapon to spurn dredged memories for Bruce, but a "kill me, but spare them" moment. It's in line with Superman's behavior throughout the final act: self-sacrificing facing Batman, a nuclear detonation, and ultimately Doomsday while weakened and wielding the Kryptonite spear. Save others at the expense of his own life.

Batman already speculated on Superman's parents while dragging him to his place of execution that Superman was taught to mean something, that he's here for a reason. He knew Superman had parents, so even if Superman uttered "mom/mother/ma" instead of Martha, it would've never struck a chord with Batman either way. At least by uttering "find him (Luthor), save Martha," that's enough clues before Batman could possibly drives the spear into his head and save that woman afterwards if he so chooses. Pleading "save my mother" is just as similar as pleading "save my girlfriend, father, cousin, or dog" it's too ambiguous that even a google search of "Luthor + noun" would be worthless.

 

[RDreamer]

If he thought she was in league with Superman then why would he send her a playful email? Wouldn't he consider her just as dangerous as Superman? The point is that the, "I thought she was with you" line only works if he has no idea who she truly is and what she is capable of. However, we already see in the movie that he was able to learn that she is not exactly human before the DD fight.

Jesus christ. This is like beyond bottom of the barrel nitpicks here.

The way I observed that moment was Superman having been battered, beaten, and accepting his death, utters his last words that Lex Luthor has a woman named Martha. It's the dying clue trope. Martha's not a word used as a weapon to spurn dredged memories for Bruce, but a "kill me, but spare them" moment. It's in line with Superman's behavior throughout the final act: self-sacrificing facing Batman, a nuclear detonation, and ultimately Doomsday while weakened and wielding the Kryptonite spear. Save others at the expense of his own life.

Batman already speculated on Superman's parents while dragging him to his place of execution that Superman was taught to mean something, that he's here for a reason. He knew Superman had parents, so even if Superman uttered "mom/mother/ma" instead of Martha, it would've never struck a chord with Batman either way. At least by uttering "find him (Luthor), save Martha," that's enough clues before Batman could possibly drives the spear into his head and save that woman afterwards if he so chooses. Pleading "save my mother" is just as similar as pleading "save my girlfriend, father, cousin, or dog" it's too ambiguous that even a google search of "Luthor + noun" would be worthless.

That plus the fact that Superman is in the mode of covering his real identity at this point still. I'm fairly certain Batman doesn't actually know he's Clark Kent at this point, though even if he does I'm rather certain Superman doesn't know that Batman knows that... Anyway, when you're trying to cover your identity like that you get rather used to putting yourself in the 3rd person and referring to things as not your own. Superman by this point is probably pretty decent at separating himself from "Clark Kent" when he's in his costume and out doing things. To me it's far more natural that he tries to plead with Batman to tell him to save "Martha" rather than "his mom."

 

[neorej]

Jesus christ. This is like beyond bottom of the barrel nitpicks here.




That plus the fact that Superman is in the mode of covering his real identity at this point still. I'm fairly certain Batman doesn't actually know he's Clark Kent at this point, though even if he does I'm rather certain Superman doesn't know that Batman knows that... Anyway, when you're trying to cover your identity like that you get rather used to putting yourself in the 3rd person and referring to things as not your own. Superman by this point is probably pretty decent at separating himself from "Clark Kent" when he's in his costume and out doing things. To me it's far more natural that he tries to plead with Batman to tell him to save "Martha" rather than "his mom."

"I'm a friend of your son."

He knows.

 

[Poodlestrike]

"I'm a friend of your son."

He knows.

That was after the explanation from Lois that Martha is Clark's mother.

 

[Speculator]

*beaten

 

[neorej]

That was after the explanation from Lois that Martha is Clark's mother.

Oh right, "it's his mother's name!"

Fuck that was cringeworthy.

 

[Poodlestrike]

Oh right, "it's his mother's name!"

Fuck that was cringeworthy.

Okay, if you say so.

 

[RDreamer]

"I'm a friend of your son."

He knows.

Are you kidding?

 

[btrboyev]

Can anyone explain to me why Gotham and metropolis were basically new York and New Jersey in terms of geography? Stupid.

 

[Astral Dog]

The movie teached me both Superman and Batmans mom is Martha :O

 

[RDreamer]

Can anyone explain to me why Gotham and metropolis were basically new York and New Jersey in terms of geography? Stupid.

It has apparently been that way in comics before.

 

[Poodlestrike]

Can anyone explain to me why Gotham and metropolis were basically new York and New Jersey in terms of geography? Stupid.

It varies, but Gotham is almost always in New Jersey, and Metropolis is on the eastern seaboard as well, so it's far from unprecedented. They're only a little bit closer than usual here, being just across the Delaware bay.

 

[btrboyev]

If seems dumb to me. If superman was that close to Gotham, I really dont see why batman would need to exist.

I always assumed Gotham was Detroit or chicago, geographically.

 

[excelsiorlef]

If seems dumb to me. If superman was that close to Gotham, I really dont see why batman would need to exist.

Uhhh Superman just arrived and Batman has been around for decades.

Also Superman travels the world in seconds, by that logic no super hero would ever need to exist other than Superman.

 

[RDreamer]

If seems dumb to me. If superman was that close to Gotham, I really dont see why batman would need to exist.

And now you're seeing part of Batman's existential crisis. Why he said his legacy was in jeopardy.

And in case you didn't notice the obvious, this Batman has been around for decades before Superman crashed into the scene.

 

[Soapbox Killer]

So. Moving forward to when "Superman Returns" and flies out of the casket or however they bring him back, wouldn't it be awesome if the played the original John Williams FanFare, if only the first 25 secs. I do every much enjoy the Hans theme, I feel like I heard it far too much in the film. It is a fine track but its time to embrace the past.

 

[WrenchNinja]

In the movie they made Ideal of Hope sound way too melancholy. I would rather that be brought back tbh. It's a good theme.

 

[Poodlestrike]

If seems dumb to me. If superman was that close to Gotham, I really dont see why batman would need to exist.

I always assumed Gotham was Detroit or chicago, geographically.

In the comics, the answer is that every time Superman tries to do Batman's job, it ends really poorly for all parties involved. Gotham tends to find villains that can match the hero, so if Superman turns up it spits out something extremely nasty. And even the street-level thugs don't react the same way. They're just not afraid of Superman.

But really, it's because these characters are expected to have solo adventures at the same time they're having team adventures. You've just got to roll with it. Malekith is going to destroy the universe in Thor 2, but the Avengers are nowhere to be seen. Roll your eyes, sigh, move on, I guess.

 

[SuperEpicMan]

I saw this on Friday and really don't think it is the disaster many of the reviews make it out to be.

I think I would give it 3 stars overall, the main things which brought it down for me were:

• Pretty bad pacing in the first half. (outside of the scene where Bruce sees Zod and Superman fighting, which was a pretty good scene).
• A messy plot.
• Some occasional bad dialogue. When Lex is getting Superman to go fight Batman, going on about fight night and gladiator matches, it was almost as if it was meant to be self aware, but it just kinda seemed off.

I also don't understand the complaints about Batman killing and being more brutal in this movie. The batman in this movie seems to have already had a long history fighting criminals and also losing people he cares about. Making him a lot more cynical, paranoid and also brutal in his methods.

 

[gamz]

"I'm a friend of your son."

He knows.

Obviously if you watched the previous scene.

 

[Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew]

Movie in a nutshell:

 

[Azerth]

so i read a rumor that the bad guy in JL is going to be aquaman and Atlantis.
no idea if what i read has anything reliable behind it

 

[FloatOn]

Movie in a nutshell:

lol!

 

[whytemyke]

If seems dumb to me. If superman was that close to Gotham, I really dont see why batman would need to exist.

I always assumed Gotham was Detroit or chicago, geographically.

I had the opposite. I always assumed Gotham was New York and Metropolis was Chicago. Hence people moving there from Kansas. Just like in real life!

 

[Loxley]

So. Moving forward to when "Superman Returns" and flies out of the casket or however they bring him back, wouldn't it be awesome if the played the original John Williams FanFare, if only the first 25 secs. I do every much enjoy the Hans theme, I feel like I heard it far too much in the film. It is a fine track but its time to embrace the past.

To be blunt, the Williams theme is dead. It's tied exclusively to the Donner series (with Superman Returns was a direct sequel to), so at this point it's Zimmer or something else new going forward.

 

[Gordon Shumway]

I saw this on Friday and really don't think it is the disaster many of the reviews make it out to be.

I think I would give it 3 stars overall

So about average. Yup..seems to be the overall general consensus.

Movie in a nutshell:

lol..Hilarious.

 

[Soapbox Killer]

To be blunt, the Williams theme is dead. It's tied exclusively to the Donner series (with Superman Returns was a direct sequel to), so at this point it's Zimmer or something else new going forward.

The new Batman Theme contains parts of the Danny Elfman 1989 film, so unless Ben Affleck is playing the same Batman as Michael Keaton...

 

[cebri.one]

One question, Why is Wayne Manor burnt? It has something to do with Batman Begins or has a total different cause?