Maybe, but better than how the movie handled it.
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Batman v Superman Spoiler Thread: Don't believe everything you read, Son
- Thread starter N7Commander95
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Poodlestrike
Banned
I mean
No?
But a lot of stuff is.
What's so bad about being open to interpretation?
Alandrus Sun
Banned
You're not making The Usual Suspects, you're making a superhero movie certain things should be clear to the audience. You can't just go 2+2= Orange and then claim it's deep art. Well, sure you can just don't expect anyone to watch your insane movie. When the audience is scratching their head 90% of the time watching your film about Batman and Superman you did something wrong. When I saw the movie several audience members actually blurted out, "Huh?" and "What?" When the Knightmare sequence just happened out of nowhere.
Yeah I agree. I'm not a comic book reader and I had no clue what was going on with the flying insect dream or the thing that jumped out of Martha's grave. It didn't even dawn on me that it could be the Flash that woke him up from the dream until I read it in this thread.
Poodlestrike
Banned
The knightmare I'm not even going to try and defend. That was a wacky ass DC reference fest and nothing more. Shoulda been cut.
But that's not what we're talking about, is it? We're talking about a character beat. The scene in Mexico is pretty subtle as well.
And frankly, I find it kind of depressing that you think that there ought to be an upper threshold on complexity/subtlety superhero movies. C'mon, man. That just turns them into yet another disposable fad, as opposed to a real part of the landscape. There's comics at all levels of storytelling complexity, why shouldn't the same hold true for comicbook movies?
There are times when it isn't, but when it comes to deciding the most pivotal turning point of the entire movie, yeah, things should be clear why they are the way they are.
Because this isn't complexity, it's just vagueness. While the point of the scene is Batman finding out he shares a relational aspect with superman, the way it's framed means the most direct reference people make is that Batman spares him because they have the same mother. The above explicitely denotes a "I've become the monster that made me" sort of vibe. Given how pivotal of a moment this is to the film, it is vital that motivations are clear, having it be explicit yeah it'd probably help.
BadAss2961
Member
These fan reimaginings of the Martha scene are overdoing it. I got the same message immediately without it being forced down my throat like John Cena.
Alandrus Sun
Banned
Yes, but it depends on who you are targeting with your movie. Just take a look at the SW: Prequels and its long diatribes about Space Politics and Taxes, people do not pay to watch a SW movie about that kind of stuff. You are supposed to be making a fun, light space adventure film for the whole family. Now, let's take a look at Nolan's Batman trilogy it's certainly not targeted for the whole family and thus has a more adult, complex narrative but it isn't throwing narrative 101 completely out along with the Kitchen Sink in an attempt to make some type of Terrence Malik film. Rather, the Nolan films still generally follow the tried and true "Heroes Journey" formula found in most films.
You can make a Terrence Malik type comic book movie but DO NOT expect that film to make $1 billion world-wide.
But seriously, based on your avatar I assume you're a big Batman fan, and that's great, I got it as well, and as a comic-book reader I understood what I was seeing in the Knightmare sequence as well as Flash appearing to Bruce.
But your average theater-goer isn't going to understand, and they are due an explanation for those things within the narrative.
Welcome to the club
Including myself, I'd say there's about ten folks on GAF who enjoyed this.
BadAss2961
Member
All the keys are there, in the movie, for anyone to understand it. It's very simple actually.
But seriously, based on your avatar I assume you're a big Batman fan, and that's great, I got it as well, and as a comic-book reader I understood what I was seeing in the Knightmare sequence as well as Flash appearing to Bruce.
But your average theater-goer isn't going to understand, and they are due an explanation for those things within the narrative.
Most of the best movies i've seen, I didn't understand everything until watching them multiple times over again, or forming my own interpretations in open-ended situations.
Spike Spiegel
Member
I saw BvS today for the first time; other plans I made fell through, and I found myself with an afternoon to kill so I caught an early matinee showing. Not liking Man of Steel, and having advance knowledge of the plot thanks to spoilers and of the quality thanks to reviews both professional and GAF, I went into the almost empty auditorium with lowered expectations of what I was about to see.
And I safely can say those expectations were simply met; this is a 5/10 movie at best, which for those keeping score means I still enjoyed it more than Man of Steel, a 3/10 by my reckoning. BvS is drawn out enough to make me fidget in my seat, bloated with all the wrong things, riddled with jarring scene transitions and universe-building nonsense, and plagued by a moody, downtrodden tone without uplift.
Affleck's performance was probably my "favorite" part of the film; physically he looked the part as both Bruce Wayne and Batman, and displayed the appropriate temperament and intensity of both sides of the individual, be it at social gathering or warehouse takedown. On the other hand, his sole motivation in this film is unequivocally TO KILL the film's other titular character, and in pursuit of this goal he unquestionably murders people to do so, and that just doesn't sit right. Really I'm not even talking about the guy with the grenade (roll AWAY, stupid, don't go after it), or the guy with the flamethrower (I've read TDKR, I know what Snyder was doing there, even if he got it completely wrong); it's the folks he mows down in the Batwing and the Batmobile and at Lexcorp that rankled worst. This was supposed to be the closest we've ever come to the comic Batman appearing in live-action, and guess what? They still got it wrong, because he can't stop killing people, to say nothing of being one "Martha!" short of offing Superman of all people.
(Seriously, "Martha"? I knew in advance, but you guys didn't tell me about Snyder replaying almost the entire Wayne murder scene over again to hammer it home in case, you know, you forgot in the last two hours. Easily the most cringe-worthy moment in the whole thing.)
Cavill's Superman remains on par with his Man of Steel portrayal, which is to say he is the most... unsettling Superman ever. Whenever on screen, he is so stoic and reflective (read: wooden) then suddenly volatile and angry, that as the audience I believe this is a guy that could easily snap, and if that's what Snyder/Cavill were shooting for then mission accomplished. I mean, Clark fights Perry on wanting to go after the Batman in the press because of the brutal justice he dispenses, minutes after a grinning Superman just pancaked a guy through four brick walls because he held Lois hostage. He tells Lois he's going to reason with Batman to save his mother, then shoves him a hundred feet seconds later because he got yelled at face-to-face, then gives up trying to reason with him altogether (apparently, because Snyder thinks costumed people talking too long looks silly) and uses what would undeniably be lethal force were the Dark Knight not wearing his fancy armor. The Knightmare sequence wasn't a stretch at all. When Superman dies at the end of the movie, I almost felt a momentary sense of relief because for the last two movies he has been one of the most unnerving Superman portrayals ever.
Gadot's Diana Prince aka Wonder Woman got the job done, with what little screen time and substance they gave her, but to be frank the job was just "expand the DC Cinematic Universe." As much as I enjoyed seeing her play with Affleck's Wayne, she's only there to build future movies and is a complete non-factor until the final action spectacle. Speaking of: guess what, Princess? If you hadn't brought a sword to the fight, Doomsday'd still have a hand on his arm, instead of a spike-stump to kill the world's greatest hero with. That's what happens when you carry around an unsheathed sword -- people get hurt. Anyway, Wonder Woman is here and... that's about it.
One day, we're going to get a smooth-as-silk motherf*cking Lex Luthor on the big screen, the kind of self-made man who can talk to living gods and make them feel small with intellect and presence alone. For now though, we have Jesse Eisenberg's quirky, scenery-chewing interpretation, the latest in a string of quirky scenery-chewing interpretations. I didn't mind his Luthor, but it's just *shrug*
Amy Adams is wasted on these movies. She's such an incredible and talented actress, and yet they give her so little to do; her subplot with the special bullet (which was incredibly dumb to start with) is so inconsequential that I can't remember whether it amounted to anything at all. She WANTS to play Lois, and they waste her.
Worst parts of the movie were the "here comes the future of the DC Cinematic Universe" moments. That transition into the Knightmare dream sequence? The future Flash dream sequence that immediately followed? WHO THE F*CK thought that transition was a good idea? To say nothing of the video files, but hey, at least Gal got a few more seconds of screen time out of it, staring intently at a monitor with varying degrees of silent fascination. By the way, Wonder Woman's discordant '300' -inspired rock theme playing over the photograph reveal? Almost as jarring as those scene transitions.
Overall, yeah, the movie deserves most of the criticism it gets. Watching these two comic book icons come together on the big screen for the first time, you get the sense that... they're both kind of jerks. Occasionally heroic in action, but not very heroic in behavior, and not all that likeable either.
Just like the movie.
And I safely can say those expectations were simply met; this is a 5/10 movie at best, which for those keeping score means I still enjoyed it more than Man of Steel, a 3/10 by my reckoning. BvS is drawn out enough to make me fidget in my seat, bloated with all the wrong things, riddled with jarring scene transitions and universe-building nonsense, and plagued by a moody, downtrodden tone without uplift.
Affleck's performance was probably my "favorite" part of the film; physically he looked the part as both Bruce Wayne and Batman, and displayed the appropriate temperament and intensity of both sides of the individual, be it at social gathering or warehouse takedown. On the other hand, his sole motivation in this film is unequivocally TO KILL the film's other titular character, and in pursuit of this goal he unquestionably murders people to do so, and that just doesn't sit right. Really I'm not even talking about the guy with the grenade (roll AWAY, stupid, don't go after it), or the guy with the flamethrower (I've read TDKR, I know what Snyder was doing there, even if he got it completely wrong); it's the folks he mows down in the Batwing and the Batmobile and at Lexcorp that rankled worst. This was supposed to be the closest we've ever come to the comic Batman appearing in live-action, and guess what? They still got it wrong, because he can't stop killing people, to say nothing of being one "Martha!" short of offing Superman of all people.
(Seriously, "Martha"? I knew in advance, but you guys didn't tell me about Snyder replaying almost the entire Wayne murder scene over again to hammer it home in case, you know, you forgot in the last two hours. Easily the most cringe-worthy moment in the whole thing.)
Cavill's Superman remains on par with his Man of Steel portrayal, which is to say he is the most... unsettling Superman ever. Whenever on screen, he is so stoic and reflective (read: wooden) then suddenly volatile and angry, that as the audience I believe this is a guy that could easily snap, and if that's what Snyder/Cavill were shooting for then mission accomplished. I mean, Clark fights Perry on wanting to go after the Batman in the press because of the brutal justice he dispenses, minutes after a grinning Superman just pancaked a guy through four brick walls because he held Lois hostage. He tells Lois he's going to reason with Batman to save his mother, then shoves him a hundred feet seconds later because he got yelled at face-to-face, then gives up trying to reason with him altogether (apparently, because Snyder thinks costumed people talking too long looks silly) and uses what would undeniably be lethal force were the Dark Knight not wearing his fancy armor. The Knightmare sequence wasn't a stretch at all. When Superman dies at the end of the movie, I almost felt a momentary sense of relief because for the last two movies he has been one of the most unnerving Superman portrayals ever.
Gadot's Diana Prince aka Wonder Woman got the job done, with what little screen time and substance they gave her, but to be frank the job was just "expand the DC Cinematic Universe." As much as I enjoyed seeing her play with Affleck's Wayne, she's only there to build future movies and is a complete non-factor until the final action spectacle. Speaking of: guess what, Princess? If you hadn't brought a sword to the fight, Doomsday'd still have a hand on his arm, instead of a spike-stump to kill the world's greatest hero with. That's what happens when you carry around an unsheathed sword -- people get hurt. Anyway, Wonder Woman is here and... that's about it.
One day, we're going to get a smooth-as-silk motherf*cking Lex Luthor on the big screen, the kind of self-made man who can talk to living gods and make them feel small with intellect and presence alone. For now though, we have Jesse Eisenberg's quirky, scenery-chewing interpretation, the latest in a string of quirky scenery-chewing interpretations. I didn't mind his Luthor, but it's just *shrug*
Amy Adams is wasted on these movies. She's such an incredible and talented actress, and yet they give her so little to do; her subplot with the special bullet (which was incredibly dumb to start with) is so inconsequential that I can't remember whether it amounted to anything at all. She WANTS to play Lois, and they waste her.
Worst parts of the movie were the "here comes the future of the DC Cinematic Universe" moments. That transition into the Knightmare dream sequence? The future Flash dream sequence that immediately followed? WHO THE F*CK thought that transition was a good idea? To say nothing of the video files, but hey, at least Gal got a few more seconds of screen time out of it, staring intently at a monitor with varying degrees of silent fascination. By the way, Wonder Woman's discordant '300' -inspired rock theme playing over the photograph reveal? Almost as jarring as those scene transitions.
Overall, yeah, the movie deserves most of the criticism it gets. Watching these two comic book icons come together on the big screen for the first time, you get the sense that... they're both kind of jerks. Occasionally heroic in action, but not very heroic in behavior, and not all that likeable either.
Just like the movie.
THERES DOZENS OF US
Just found out my bro is coming in town tomorrow for business and he said he wants to watch BvS again. Said we have to watch it on the real IMAX screen here in Orlando. 
This will be my second viewing. I'll post my review on Friday. I did enjoy the movie the first time. Excited to find out what small stuff I notice on a repeat viewing.
This will be my second viewing. I'll post my review on Friday. I did enjoy the movie the first time. Excited to find out what small stuff I notice on a repeat viewing.
Discotheque
Banned
yep. it works really well as an alternate universe superman but not the guy they want pushing as the (co)lead of the justice league.
like you are genuinely afraid for his enemies when you see him flying into frame. or when lex threatened his mother and then he got the red eyes I was like "god damn is he gonna kill this guy too"
he is one girlfriend/mother dying away from evil dictator status. and the knightmare sequence said as much. bold move but a bad one imo.
I lost it at this part, too. lol So true. He's pretty much a mix of Dr. Manhattan and The Plutonian from Irredeemable. It was only a matter of time before all that pressure got to him and he finally just flipped.
The biggest crime this movie committed was as you said, the characters were not likable.
BadAss2961
Member
What's interesting though is 'the out' is built right into BvS with the knightmare sequence. This universe was headed for Injustice Superman, but Flash might've changed that.
Superman could also be very different upon resurrection.
killertofu
Member
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
Reflecting on the bullet subplot, I think it would have all fallen into place basically if they had said it was some kind of special bullet designed to rapidly degrade on contact with blood or something like that. Just comic book science, but bare with me for a moment - it would mean that firstly the "lol super bullet was stopped by a book" thing wouldn't grate some people, and finding it would be very significant evidence of them doing a frame job on superman, because the bodies would be retrieved with grievous wounds but without bullets inside them. Fuzzy enough to shift the blame to the man with laser eyes capable of ripping people open by gently flicking them who was known to be at the scene of the crime. IDing the bullet as lexcorp later on in the film then puts the final piece into place and would be the evidence that he was culpable for the massacre.
The way they did it was forced down your throat.
They showed her name a bunch of times (I assume to work it in subliminally, because there is nothing to suggest that it's an important thing for the audience to know or remember) and then just in case you forgot, the moment Clark says her name, it flashes back to his mom's death and shows a new scene with his dad on the ground, dying, saying, "In case you missed all the times we tried to get this point across, my wife's name is Martha.....*dies*"
Then Lois runs in from nowhere just in time yelling "his mother's name is Martha!" Superman couldn't have said it himself, he needed someone to pop up from behind a stone and fill in the blanks for Bruce and the audience.
I don't know how much more ham-handed they could have been with the scene. No one is confused, it's all a problem with the execution. The problem is that they don't know how to make the scene work with any subtlety. They shouldn't have needed a flashback nor Lois to explain things to make that scene work.
Alandrus and Rydeen to write and direct the solo Batfleck films. Both of those are WAY better than the way they handled it in BvS
BadAss2961
Member
Well yeah, I could understand this side of the fence before anyone suggesting the scene needed MORE explanation.
It's less about the scene needing more explanation and more about the visual of Batman confronting his eight year old self, AND holding the gun that killed his parents is such a strong and powerful visual on a gut level, I'm shocked that WB / Snyder didn't think to use it.
Oh right, they're dumb and don't understand the characters they are custodians of, carry on.
Film is a visual medium, use it to you're advantage, treat it as though this was a silent film and you have to tell the story strictly through the visuals and everything would fall into place. Especially with a character like Batman, whose whole history is filled with iconic, even Jungian archetypes that hit readers and viewers with a metaphorical punch to the gut. I sure know if I were directing a Batman movie, I'd go crazy with that stuff, because it's one of the things that makes the character special.
BadAss2961
Member
They didn't use it because that's totally overdoing it to the point of cliche. Just like that stupid GoTG gif.
Yes, film is a visual medium. That's why we got that whole artsy intro in the first place. When people thought the Wayne murders would be unnecessary, Snyder ended up making more out of it than anyone that preceded him, and he did it for a reason. It ties the Martha moment together by itself. Nothing more is necessary.
And what, having flashbacks to the grave to show "HIS MOM, HE'S THINKING ABOUT HIS MOM, DO YOU GET, DO YOU GET THAT HE'S THINKING ABOUT HIS MOM" is the height of originality?
I don't think you can use the "it's a cliche" defense when the film is so crammed full with other cliches and otherwise derivative material. If you're gonna be cliche one way or another, why not go with the more powerful image? The Pieta is a cliche, but it's still used because it's damn powerful.
BadAss2961
Member
I just said that I could see an argument for it already being overdone as is. The intro is everything one should need to piece it together.
The powerful image you speak of is unnecessary because it's something you should eventually see for yourself through the hints the movie leaves. Giving it away leaves absolutely nothing to the imagination, which is something too many films do these days. As a fan, my mind was already there the moment Bruce heard "Martha." It might require a rewatch for others.
Gonna have to disagree with you on that account. I can't think of any image whose power is taken away for actually being....you know, seen. And yes, it would be very on the nose, but since we're already getting that, I'd rather get something that atleast looks good.
I absolutely loved Guardians of the Galaxy. I adore it. I own it, and watch it on occasion. But that mommy moment was the stupidest and most random part of the film.
Welcome to the party, friend.
Welcome to the party, friend.
Alandrus Sun
Banned
You have no heart and I don't understand how it was random. Quill's entire character is about losing his mother as a child and being torn from his family to the point where he lives in a state of arrested development acting as an child while in fact being a 30+ year old adult.
m_shortpants
Member
The movie definitely has some serious flaws, but reading some of the complaints here...
...jeez.
...jeez.
They tend to pile up when the core movie doesn't work. If the movie was great with a few issues that'd be understandable. Like if Eisenberg's Lex Luthor was the only issue, I'd be willing to forgive it. Not understanding the core principles and characterization of Superman on the other hand, that's a bigger issue.
So just like Bruce Wayne in BvS...
Ayy lmao!
When a movie is as serious as this then you zero in on the plot holes and inconsistencies harder. It's the Nolan effect. The original Avengers was never scrutinized to this extent because it wasn't that serious but people over analyze everything in the TDK movies because they were presented in a grittier and more serious angle.
Hellwarden
Member
Is it true that Superman never says anything to Wonder Woman?
He just asks Batman if she is with him?
He just asks Batman if she is with him?
brochiller
Member
I really hope the next time we see Superman he is the Superman we all know and love. I've enjoyed watching this portrayal of Superman, but I don't want it do be the only one we get in this universe. I will forgive Snyder/WB if it is all part of his character arc, but they've already alienated a lot of people with it.
Poodlestrike
Banned
No, they exchange words briefly.
They exchange one line to each other during the final fight.
WW: "I've fought monsters from other worlds before".
Supes: "This one is from my world."
I watched Man of Steel randomly yesterday and Superman was actually quite heroic in that movie or at least tried to be. People only remember the last Zod battle but he was trying his hardest to play the hero. The scene where he breaks the world engine was a very Superman moment, they could've added more emotion and weight to it by having Pa Kent/Jor-El voice over in the background.
I actually might rescind my original review and I actually think MoS might be better than BvS... but then the Batman stuff in BvS though...
And that ugly desaturated filter plus constant digital zoom in on the actions ruin the visual look of MoS. At least Snyder learned from that in BvS.
I actually might rescind my original review and I actually think MoS might be better than BvS... but then the Batman stuff in BvS though...
And that ugly desaturated filter plus constant digital zoom in on the actions ruin the visual look of MoS. At least Snyder learned from that in BvS.
Feel however you want about that mommy moment. There was a set up and a pay off, the way good writing is supposed to work in film.
I'm not one to pick apart movies for issues in the internal logic, I'm not too interested in the "plot holes" in Luthor's plan in this movie because the character didn't already work in execution, so why should I care or care to get into the specifics of whether or not his plot makes sense or not when the portrayal is already a big fat F?
With Nolan's Batman movies (with the possible exception of Rises), I give the movies a pass because, just like the first Avengers movie, the movies work as a whole before zeroing in on the plot nitty-gritty. The broad brush strokes are where they need to be, so I don't really care if the finer details are smudged a little.
Arguably this movie had that too. Set up was in the opening scene of the movie and the pay off was in the BvS fight.
Execution was not up to snuff. Batman's turn face was too abrupt. The Lois Lane interruption was also super cheesy even though I could see why they would add that in (Lois Lane being the voice of reason because Batman was less likely to believe his foe). Also unlike Batman Begins (where they had multiple scenes with Bruce and his father), they didn't show scenes of Bruce with his mother before she was dead to give us a hint of their relationship.
The scene also didn't relate the whole "Batman is becoming Joe Chill" to the audience that well. They could've had a flash scene where Bruce was posed like Joe Chill and Superman was posed like Bruce with Batman making that realization and then throwing away the spear.
Some gorgeous concept art
That last one could be made into a poster for the movie tbh.
Who's that on the right?
Discotheque
Banned
nah the drama scenes fell really flat in that film. it shined in it's humor.
Discotheque
Banned
whoa. this the real M(artha)CU
plasmawave
Banned
Martha.
BadAss2961
Member
I'd love to see the outrage had Superman piledrived Doomsday back into the city like so.
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