Colin Moriarty of Kinda Funny: source says "most developers are not happy with PS4.5"
- Thread starter Chobel
- Start date
Now that they have an architecture that can continue (amd64 APU with loads of CUs) and the better than expected digital adoption tied to their ecosystem the argument that was posited in 2013 about "ecosystems matter" is actually becoming a reality.
Now it isn't just "oh man I need to add my friends again on this list" but "if I switch to a different ecosystem all my past purchases will be gone."
They want to force that move and use the great customer lock-in model that is proving to be the best way to make fat bank.
I absolutely expect the default mode in the SDK to remain PS4regular and the additional resources for NEO mode only to be unlocked by SDK request.
(This hypothesis is falsified when the PS4neo isn't using less power playing unpatched PS4 games from 2013.)
TAJ
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
We've already seen PS4 ports running at 5fps. (Broforce)
There are videos of it going under 15fps even in earlier levels, but it gets worse later. Much worse.
PC versions of multiplatform games, and even some console games, are so often unoptimised messes for a reason. It's a potential headache because instead of having to just develop PS4, Xbox One and PC versions of games, they may have to potentially develop for the PS4K, NX and XB1.5 versions on top. The more systems and fragmentation there is, the harder it is for developers.
Mediking
Member
I've noticed that you're one of the tech guys pushing for the PS4K and I understand that.... but I got a quick question for you: Do you own a PS4?
Papacheeks
Banned
Show me a game on PC that has characters look as good as Uncharted, Infamous:ss, The order:1886?
Star Citizen with mark hamil is the only one that's pushing shit tons of pixels but lacks the animation seen in the games I noted above.
Consoles have their place, and developers who can make games on an enclosed system can concentrate on the presentation that console exclusive games have over PC.
ArkhamFantasy
Member
You mean like Hyrule Warriors did on 3DS/N3DS?
Melchiah
Member
I'm perfectly fine with what I've been playing for the past 29 months. That's about 30 games so far, a game per month, and about a third of them have been published by Sony. I've pretty much gotten the announced games I wanted already, with Uncharted 4 coming in three weeks, and apart from TLG I can't think of any...
...that aren't out yet.
I'm also prefectly fine with hardware upgrade in the middle of the generation. If the articles about the visual and performance increases on 1080p display are true, I'll be buying it day one. It doesn't invalidate the 29 months of entertainment I've already had, and there's nothing forcing me to upgrade. If I wanted, I could continue playing on the system I have, just like before.
Wouldn't the same apply to XBO as well? Yet "XBO has no games" hasn't become such a mantra.
I'd wager the majority play on a single platform, which makes it meaningless whether a game is also available on another system or not. It doesn't diminish a single platform users' experience in any way.
These types of arguments seem to circle this:
This thread is this:
but full of people who want to do this:
That's a perfect analogy.
Hawk269
Member
I disagree fully. These systems launched weak and it shows. While some games do look good shortcuts are being made to compensate. I think we need more power right now.
I would post that quote from Shu Yoshida where he stated Sony were actively planning always online DRM for the PS4, but my subscription to the deluded games journalist archive of things that never happened must have expired.
Can't developers just make the same settings/specs for both neo and ps4?
Huh? They already know because of pc. This only applies to games releasing on consoles which is not that much.
GasProblem
Member
I haven't read the whole thread. But if I was a multiplatform dev, and Neo is optional and it would cost me more to create a Neo version, I'd just target the PS4 user base and make the game look as good as I can. It's not like Neo users won't buy my game if it doesn't have a Neo mode. They just want a good game.
Succinct Verbosity
Member
I imagine the big two is alienating an existing userbase of millions with an inferior product and the fact that developing for a unified, single system is way easier. All conjecture, but I'd hate to have to add to my workload when there is already a standard PS4 version, XBO and PC version to cater for.
Audioboxer
Member
Aw man... this has to become a meme from all of these leaks.
PS4k, codename Neo, has been unveiled at E3 by Sony as... PS4 Hyrule Warriors.
Support is but that doesn't mean they need to add features. The only rule is that Neo can't run worse than the OG PS4
Steve Youngblood
Member
Yeah. And TVs are a factor there as well. Like say I decided to buy a new TV around the time that the PS4 and Xbox One came out. If this stuff is so important to me, I'd probably be noticing that there are bigger TVs out there that have lower input lag and better picture quality than the set I bought 2 and a half years ago.
I don't know. It's just kind of a weird mindset to me that I'm seeing. If your concern is that stuff is going to be optimized for the 4K and the PS4 version will suffer, then I can kind of get it, but I don't think it's a very realistic concern. I think it's far more probable that early 4K owners will feel shafted that stuff isn't very optimized for the additional horsepower given that the base system is the more targeted platform.
But what I find bizarre is that I feel like the concern some have is simply fear that they have to upgrade if they want the "best" thing out there. And it's weird to me because the PS4 isn't the best now. If the 4K released today, it still wouldn't be the best gaming machine on the block. There are people with gaming PCs right now that stomp the specs of this machine. It's ok to lag behind a bit. If you don't want to upgrade, I think you're still going to be quite fine for some time. Nobody's going to be coding to the metal on the 4K anyway.
That's just my take though.
Some devs already have no problems sending shit out like this.
And the NX on the horizon.
I do wonder how different optimizing for PS4 and PS4 Neo will be. I assume they run on the same disc? So that might be something new for developers in console gaming.
Why would I keep using my basic PS4 console to play competitive multiplayer in a supposed closed environment if PS4MasterRace users will have a significant advantage just because they have the version with better res and especially better/more stable framerate.
Sony actually managed to evolve the multiplayer landscape by taking the first steps into full Console P2W instead of DLC P2W.
Bethesda did exactly that last gen when PS3 userbase was around 50M and they released a Skyrim PS3 that managed to achieve 0 fps in some conditions. So your point is?
Hyrule Warriors is a Wii U port.
Take any of the latest Omega Force games on Vita, it's poorly performance is not a PS Vita+ fault.
Audioboxer
Member
Said devs would send out shit on PS4 as it stands. The utter dross of the gaming world should not be heralded as the poster boys for PS4 Neo.
Why are said devs now being described as the norm, rather than the exception to all the amazing feats we currently play today?
Exactly. Shit is always shit.
That's false. The game is phenomenal on N3DS. Best version of the game, in fact.
TAJ
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Kinda my point.
Scrotum Phillips
Member
Just because something has been done for 30 or so years doesn't necessarily make it the only way things have to be done. For those that want to upgrade every 6 or so years, that option is still on the table. On the other hand, I'd like the potential to update more often and in line with how other technology is offered to consumers.
I know there's going to be some drawbacks to this method, I'm just optimistic that the good outweighs the bad.
Have you ever played a pc game? I couldn't have cared less what resolution/fps someone else is running when I used to play Team Fortress 2.
Steve Youngblood
Member
I think he was referring to the 3DS version. Meaning pretend the N3DS never existed. the OG 3DS still wasn't going to get a very good port of this game.
Papacheeks
Banned
What are you basing this off of though? Go look at PC. Show me a game that looks vastly different on a pc compared to it's console counterpart?
And with your outlook, did you feel the same way that same year PS4 came out when The last of us on PS3 came out was only 720p?
Did people complain about graphics on GOW:Ascension, GT6?
Those were in the same year PS4 launched. People were still amazed at those games. Not everything was super great, like GOW:a wasn't anything special gameplay wise, or story. But for a 2013 PS3 game compared to PS4 it still looked great.
Chasing the Pixel monster only brings more problems and doesn't challenge developers to be creative in solving design/engine/code issues. It just fixes the leak, until it starts again.
Lets not act like the PS3 was a gem to work with.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
I look forward to all games being showcased on PSNEO going forward. Will there be disclaimer runs and looks worse on PS4 in the trailers?
Hexa
Member
Can you go into more depth on this answer? Do you think it'll take considerably more work?
Audioboxer
Member
Considering most games show cutscene stuff anyway, the *not in-game footage stuff will prevail.
To be a bit more serious about your remark, pretty certain trailers show off PC footage just now and they don't say *worse on PS4/XB1. Best possible graphics scenario is always what is used. For console only stuff, PS4 content is most likely used, it doesn't say *worse on XB1 by 5FPS.
Mr. Nice_Guy
Member
I'll believe that.
TAJ
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
But splitting their attention isn't going to help, especially if PS4K owners become the majority down the line.
The mistake here is conflating PC gamers to console gamers. Whilst there will be some who game on both platforms, many like myself are primarily console gamers to avoid this sort of nonsense. It doesn't matter to most console gamers that better PC versions exist, that has and always will be the case to those who want to invest the money on the PC side. It will however affect console owners if they know a better version of their console exists, that runs games better, and takes development time and consideration away from their vanilla system, offers less value proposition going forward, and likely unnecessarily extends the life of the generation because of this incremental update.
I much prefer the idea of shorter generations, to longer ones with iterative hardware releases in-between. The PS4K is still going to be held back by the PS4, which makes it even less value for money.
Of course and that's exactly why I chose not to continue to play games on PC and went the console route.
Very unlikely they get to sell 40M MasterConsoles than the poor edition the rest of the way. But developers always tend to chose the easier and more powerful target to develop for, it makes sense to do that as well and Sony will even pay them with marketing deals to do that. Sony wants to sell the Master Console not the poor edition.
ShadowRunner
Member
There will be more total consoles out There to sell games on. If the ps4k sells well to existing owners there will be a ton of 2nd hand ps4s on the market going for cheap or handed down to family/friends, that is still a win for Sony If they buy games.
ArkhamFantasy
Member
If they arent given enough time to properly optimize a single PS4 sku, how does throwing another sku into the mix that they have to optimize/QA for help?
And whats in it for the developers and publishers to take advantage of the Neo? Do they get extra money for it? No, the game costs 60 dollars either way.
Papacheeks
Banned
And those issues were on them to fix which they never did, and people are still pissed about it. Bethesda bitched at Sony for using the power PC architecture that had bad documentation which added to the issues they had developing on that platform.
Sony reacted to their cry's along with many other developers by going with a lot of memory, a Beefy gpu and x86 architecture for easy development.
And fallout 4 on both Xbox and PS4 still runs like shit. Because their game engine code is complete shit. Just like Doom's from what I hear on PC runs like shit.
You make PS4 the base as it'll continue to be. A dev in this thread literally explained how during the dev process there are different settings that they can turn up or down. Once things get into motion devs can have a baseline to work with and then have a PS4K version of that as well.
Plus we don't know what tools Sony will be offering to make this even easier on people.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
The point is the ceiling is higher now, imagine the downgrade threads going forward.
Titanfall got footage for 360 like 2 weeks before release for the first timr for instance.
Audioboxer
Member
If they're a VR dev, sure, maybe more money.
If not, then we'll need to see how good Sony's dev kit/dev tools are for scaling. Either way if this further increases Sony's stranglehold on the console market, where is a disgruntled dev to go? Selling hundreds of thousands if not millions of copies of your title on a PS platform makes your bottom line. Not getting up in arms and going Nintendo/MS exclusive because of 2 SKUs. Your meat and potatoes is probably coming in a bigger ratio from Sony right now.
Sure, which will have the outrage we are seeing now I guess. We'll see if the inner PS bickering is as hostile as the cross-platform stuff between PS and Xbox owners. Hopefully not.
Maybe we should take a page from the PC GAF book and simply accept YMMV with graphics, even on platform exclusive content.
They're not the norm, but feel it could become the norm. I don't have faith in a AAA industry (where most games will benefit from Neo) that has devs who, rather than improve their own products bugs and glitches, just keep working on DLC. Who's devs, send out ports of games on PC like Rocksteady that are trash.
And now, I fear that they'll spruce up their games to look nice on PS4 Neo, market that as their game (which is fine), and then send out a vanilla PS4 version that will not be up to standard. It may be ok, but it's not the best the vanilla PS4 version could be. They'll be too focused making their game to be the prettiest it can be so they can market it well.
First impressions seem to be bigger than ever in this industry, Ubisoft does a great job at it.
Clockwork5
Member
But from everything I have heard, Neo mode will be optional. Why is option something they are mad about?
Developers, nor most consumers will be happy. There's very little use for a ps4.5. There's a ton of power left to be utilized in the normal PS4. Developers are already finding it hard to push these new machines due to how expensive it's becoming to develop games. I don't see too many developers clamoring for a bunch more power right now, and I doubt they want to worry about having to worry about performance on an added machine. One of the attractive things about consoles for developers is that the specs are fixed.
Sho_Nuff82
Member
What people think will happen:
PS4 games at 1080p, 30fps, PS4k game at 4k, 60 fps
What will actually happen:
PS4 game at 900p, 20fps, PS4k game at 1080p, 30fps
Devs can't help themselves in pushing effects over framerate.
Steve Youngblood
Member
I'm going to be perfectly frank here and state that this is still behavior I find bizarre. And by that I just mean the type of people that seem to care more about whether or not their version of a piece of software beats only the direct competition's than whether or not it simply performs well. Mind you, I get it. If you're on the vanilla PS4 and a new piece of software comes out that performs like dog shit on it but runs well on the 4K, that's going to be something worth complaining about. But the concern of "oh no my experience is lessened because of the existence of a better, non-PC version" is not a particularly compelling argument to me.