The Case for the PS4K: an important, and necessary, change for the industry.
- Thread starter chubigans
- Start date
Sure its making money and its healthy, but it is also shrinking. Its not on the verge of collapse, like some thought it would be before the ps4, but it is slowly shrinking. Mobile and PC are encroaching more and more each gen. This is a way for sony to fight against that. People will have a harder time to move on when they have to start over by doing so. Currently each gen we have started over with our content. Now it will follow you no matter what hardware you are using within the Playstation brand.
I started out against this. Now, I'm still against this, but more resigned. Go for it Sony. If you land on your ass, the gaming world will keep on spinning. If it works out, more power to ya.
The only thing that changes now if when I am asked "They aren't coming out with a new one of these any time soon are they?" dozens of times per week by someone looking to buy one of the consoles, I now have to answer "Yep." and watch a sale walk out my door. =P
The only thing that changes now if when I am asked "They aren't coming out with a new one of these any time soon are they?" dozens of times per week by someone looking to buy one of the consoles, I now have to answer "Yep." and watch a sale walk out my door. =P
timetokill
Banned
The biggest issue, and one I would be concerned about as a developer and a fan of the medium, is that the extra money being paid into consoles is coming out of the total pocket to be spent on the games themselves. Money isn't infinite. If "core gamers" are spending $400 on console upgrades every couple of years, that's less to spend on new games.
What this suggests is that the industry will continue to coalesce around ever fewer, high-profile "blockbuster" titles.
What this suggests is that the industry will continue to coalesce around ever fewer, high-profile "blockbuster" titles.
Most aren't going to spend that much every couple years on new hardware. Most will still upgrade every 5 or 6 years. The whales will upgrade when they have the option, and continue buying every game. but nothing much will change on the consumer side outside of additional choice.
The Artisan
Member
how do you figure that bro? like, what are you gauging to draw that conclusion? i'm drawing all of mine purely based off sales. hardware and software.
in the march npd thread we saw a top 10 chart dominated by Ps4 and xbone games, PC versions of two games made it on that list but since NPD compiles all versions of a game together as the top 10 instead of each version having its own slot, it's tough to tell how much the PC versions sold, but that's not the point - I don't see console sales in any way shape or form shrinking, if they're selling, arguably, the most.
"Currently each gen" - you say that like it was ever something else, but the market for consoles has always had this. There's nothing for Sony to fight here. The Ps4 has been selling like hotcakes since November 2013. Bloodborne, Until Dawn, Rocket League as a console game, all of these have exceeded expectations in terms of software sales.
This iterative shit is going to fuck everything up.
They're the backbone of a shitty industry that hates its customers and actively works against them. I don't see a crash of this godawful industry as a bad thing. It will be replaced by something better, just like it was the last time it crashed.
It is forward compatibility that is the problem.
The Shadow of Mordor situation happened precisely because we still don't have incremental upgrades. Because the PS3 and PS4 were completely different systems they had to dedicate resources to supporting two separate platforms, and in that case the PS3 got the short end of the stick. With multiple PS4's they will be the same platform: same hardware architecture, API's, network infrastructure, developer tools, etc. Because the PS3->PS4 transition changed so many things, reset the market, and everything was different, publishers and developers saw themselves having to double their efforts or find themselves missing out on a potential huge chunk of the market. With easier and smoother transitions this just isn't a problem anymore.
Orochinagis
Member
Still, I cant afford to buy a new console in short cycles.
butman
Member
For the people that like the idea of PS4K.
It will be OK for you that after this, the console market become a yearly release that makes run the same games slightly better than his previous version? Like phones?
Because that what Sony will do now but in a period of 3 years. Sames games will run differently in two differents consoles. This will cause disparity in their market.
They basically saying goodbye to the release of a brand new console that come out every 7 years that can run games that the previous console can't (apart of cross-gen titles and remasters) that make us enjoy our well spended $400 sharing and play with everyone else that have the same console than you without performance differences for the next 6+ years until a new one comes in.
It will be OK for you that after this, the console market become a yearly release that makes run the same games slightly better than his previous version? Like phones?
Because that what Sony will do now but in a period of 3 years. Sames games will run differently in two differents consoles. This will cause disparity in their market.
They basically saying goodbye to the release of a brand new console that come out every 7 years that can run games that the previous console can't (apart of cross-gen titles and remasters) that make us enjoy our well spended $400 sharing and play with everyone else that have the same console than you without performance differences for the next 6+ years until a new one comes in.
sure because I will get to choose when I want to upgrade. If I think my hardware is no longer cutting it, or games I want are not being made for my hardware I will upgrade. Just like I do with my phone, PC, car, TV, and other tech devices. Sony wouldn't get to decide when I upgrade anymore. I would.
Why do you play these games from a shitty industry that hates you?
Dangansona
Member
I seriously doubt it will be a yearly release. I would put a large amount of money down on that. I expect one stop gap per generation.
Sony never got to decide when you upgraded before either. In that scenario comparison, upgrades just come around less often, but provide far more substantial jumps in the fidelity of games and tech delivered.
Games will work just as well on the PS4 as they would have otherwise. Even more, the original PS4 will see support for even longer now: because there won't be a PS5 that breaks everything again, games will support the PS4 for a long time unless they absolutely can't.
For example, Far Cry Primal could've worked just fine on the PS3 (same engine and literally the same map as FC4, which did just fine). It didn't come out on PS3 because it was expensive to do both a PS3 and PS4 version, two completely different platforms each requiring their own development. Rocket League at one point was planned for PS3, but investing significant resources on a smaller install base wasn't worth it so they canned it. The original PS4 will be seeing new releases for much longer than the PS3, simply because Sony won't move away from its OS, architecture and developer tools like they did with the PS3.
StrongBlackVine
Banned
I see the comments have not gotten any less ridiculous.
wapplew
Member
Forward compatible is the compromise for short cycle, it's nothing but giant ass anchor that limit software & hardware potential.
It's the most stupid idea of this whole iterative business model that kill the one of the appeal of console for me.
No sony did decide when I upgraded from ps3 to ps4. I didn't have any choice between the time ps3 came out to ps4 coming out. I would have upgraded before that if I could have.
NoSkillz187
Member
Yes they did choose when to upgrade because when that next gen system comes out games are no longer made on the last. So unless you wanted to play old games of course they decided when you upgrade.
NullPointer
Member
This is already feasible by way of the Playstation changing to a PC-like architecture with the PS4. Forwards and backwards compatibility from here on out doesn't require the NEO. I think thats a misconception on the pro-NEO side.
A misconception I see on the anti-NEO side is that supporting the base and NEO versions of a Playstation game is akin to supporting a PS3 and PS4 version, ala cross-gen stuff we saw over the past few years. The NEO and core are extremely similar, so its more like different presets in a PC game.
Bear Force One
Banned
No reason for anyone to get the first model in a new generation then. So long console market.
I really hope SONY has an exit strategy planned for this when it backfires.
In one generation I've gone from always getting all three to getting one console. Now I'll go from Day 1 to second or third iteration.
I really hope SONY has an exit strategy planned for this when it backfires.
In one generation I've gone from always getting all three to getting one console. Now I'll go from Day 1 to second or third iteration.
NoSkillz187
Member
Rational people don't have this logic. If they did, phones, cars, TVs, graphic card wouldn't sell either.
Did you read the OP?
I mean, of course enthusiasts love it.
But we're in the first generation in console history that would have seen a decline in hardware unit sales, and by a pretty significant amount.
I say would have, because you might see 20+ million double ups now so it's going to be a lot harder to quantify the decline.
So to me the industry seems to be doing exactly what they've done for the last five years - double down on the enthusiast and wring every single cent out of them you can. That kind of thing works for awhile but there's a lot of issues trying to keep it going long term.
But we're in the first generation in console history that would have seen a decline in hardware unit sales, and by a pretty significant amount.
I say would have, because you might see 20+ million double ups now so it's going to be a lot harder to quantify the decline.
So to me the industry seems to be doing exactly what they've done for the last five years - double down on the enthusiast and wring every single cent out of them you can. That kind of thing works for awhile but there's a lot of issues trying to keep it going long term.
Bear Force One
Banned
Sure. I also don't have to agree with it.
Sure thing. LOL
I've been a hardcore day one gamer for years. I'm not playing this silly game of iteration. Where are they getting the bodies to fill my spot?
Forward compatibility is not the same as crossgen. And the main thing that limits potential is size of audience. Companies will not invest large for games with a small potential audience, so rsetting the install base to zero with every new gen maybe isn't a the best way to run a business.
You don't have a PS4 or Xbone then?
Because they ARE the first in the last generation.
butman
Member
The thing that from now on it seem that it will never be a "new" generation.
It will only be The Playstation (like the PC) upgraded. Call it Playstation 4.0 - 4.5 - 5.0 - 5.5 - 6.0 and so on every 3 years. It will be capable to run games better, but in some points the games that will run like shit in PS5.5 they will not run on PS4.0 anymore i presume.
By the other side i wonder if we will ever be able to play older games forever. Like the PC. For example we will be able to play Bloodborne in the Playstation 5.5 with a better performance?
You're not just disagreeing with it, you're ignoring its premise altogether.
Bear Force One
Banned
And obviously had they made their plans clear at first I'd have stayed clear. Now it's too late and people who bought them are fucked after the fact.
Let's not pretend this is universally welcomed. GAF consensus has been so opposite of whT the market does time and time again.
Not at all. I'll remember that the next time someone disagrees with me though. 😜
But they still have to support the base model, which drags it down. It's not that big of a jump anyway. Why not release a backwards compatible box in two years with even more power?
Yeah I wish the ps4 had more power but the time to add power is in the beginning of the generation, not the middle. I say that as someone who bought a launch ps3 and realizes that sony had to target a better price point.
I personally don't think that most people are willing to trade in their own console and pay 200 or 400 to get a new box to play the same games but be able turn on some visual effects. Yes the enthusiast console market is there but I think it's pretty niche.
Regardless, the discussion is almost pointless without an official word and seeing how everything will play out. I guess I'm just ranting.
RickyRozay
Member
For me personally I'm not going to complain that while I'm playing games on my 970 their are people with 980 Ti's playing the same exact games as me at higher resolutions, better AA, higher fps ect. What I'll do is at a time of my choosing I'll upgrade, sure I don't have to but I just might. You're either happy with the performance of what you currently have or you're not and for those who aren't Sony is giving you a chance to upgrade.
I understand this idea has never been brought to the console market before and maybe because I tend to upgrade my PC every few years it doesn't seem to be that big of an issue to me but I'm pretty excited that Sony is even offering me this choice. If this will help them push a little bit more out of their AAA games to better the experience in anyway I'll sell/trade my current ps4 and pick up the NEO either right away or whenever I can, OR just not.
I understand this idea has never been brought to the console market before and maybe because I tend to upgrade my PC every few years it doesn't seem to be that big of an issue to me but I'm pretty excited that Sony is even offering me this choice. If this will help them push a little bit more out of their AAA games to better the experience in anyway I'll sell/trade my current ps4 and pick up the NEO either right away or whenever I can, OR just not.
UntoldDreams
Member
They are buying iterative iPhones and iPads and soon PS4's.
I've said it in the thread already but this is like having a new console with full backwards compatability, but also the burden of forwards compatability (having to have its games playable on older hardware).
Even at just two boxes it changes the console 'game', as the same disc performs differently on two different hardware SKUs. You're going to have software developed for the lowest common denominator hardware (the weakest hardware that runs the same software), so you face buying into a 'new-ish' console that will likely be the same price as, but feature less of the perks of, an actual new console (like games designed around its power in particular).
Even at just two boxes it changes the console 'game', as the same disc performs differently on two different hardware SKUs. You're going to have software developed for the lowest common denominator hardware (the weakest hardware that runs the same software), so you face buying into a 'new-ish' console that will likely be the same price as, but feature less of the perks of, an actual new console (like games designed around its power in particular).
StrongBlackVine
Banned
I'm right in step with this view. Way too many people concerned about how other people are experiencing games. Unless we see some proof that PSpoor games will become shit there is no reason to be upset.
UnwrittenZero
Member
I hope they expand on this at e3 the leaks are too wide spread they really need to present their road map. I'd like to see E3 go like this but keep in mind I'm totally for the ps4.5.
Show montage begins
They get the ps4.5 announcement and talk done right away.
Show God of War 4 in og ps4 mode and neo
Drop bomb after bomb
Some where in there show the next from software exclusive neo'ed up in a teaser just to show what they are adding to the PlayStation brand we all know it's gonna happen. Knowing from I'm sure it's being actively worked on as a side team does dlc those guys work hard.
Announce demon souls ps4 so that it will be preserved going forward along with a slew of greatest ps hits from all the ps systems bring the best that has ever been made into the backwards compatibility library.
FF VII in neo mode
Go all out in showing the differences in the modes but label them clearly. Show us what we can get for the money. Give compelling reasons to keep in the PlayStation brand and not jump ship to PC or Xbox. Do you cant tell I'm not going anywhere because I love From and all of their games come to PlayStation the same can't be said for any other platform.
Show montage begins
They get the ps4.5 announcement and talk done right away.
Show God of War 4 in og ps4 mode and neo
Drop bomb after bomb
Some where in there show the next from software exclusive neo'ed up in a teaser just to show what they are adding to the PlayStation brand we all know it's gonna happen. Knowing from I'm sure it's being actively worked on as a side team does dlc those guys work hard.
Announce demon souls ps4 so that it will be preserved going forward along with a slew of greatest ps hits from all the ps systems bring the best that has ever been made into the backwards compatibility library.
FF VII in neo mode
Go all out in showing the differences in the modes but label them clearly. Show us what we can get for the money. Give compelling reasons to keep in the PlayStation brand and not jump ship to PC or Xbox. Do you cant tell I'm not going anywhere because I love From and all of their games come to PlayStation the same can't be said for any other platform.
It all comes down to price. In 2 years Zen, HBM2, and Polaris 11 will not be cheap enough for sony to put in a console. Maybe by 2020 sure, but i thought everyone agreed that 7 year generations wer too long.
Games are already being developed for the lcd,that would be the xbox one.
boredandlazy
Member
'IF' it backfires.
Bitch Pudding
Member
Those are exactly my major concerns as well.
I for one hope that - at some point (in 2-3 years) - a new "generation" of games wont support the oldest hardware anymore.
So while every PS4 game has to run on a PS4 and PS4k, this rule might not be applied when PS5 arrives. Some new games might still run on PS4, but you'll also see the first "only for PS5" games at the same time. That's what I suppose.
If we just get another hardware upgrade after PS4 Neo, this new generation of games may take a while, though.
StrongBlackVine
Banned
Can someone explain to me how a $399 PS4K is going stop people from buying the $249 PSpoor? I don't see the market for the OG model diminishing any time soon regardless of what happens with this upgrade.
Right. My point is the distinction between hardware generations might be lost by this iterative approach. So that leap in potential for new hardware could be held back by old hardware, as the games on the new hardware are the same games on the old. But you'll probably still be paying a 'new console generation' price.
boredandlazy
Member
Well labelling it the Pspoor isn't helping anyone for starters.
Glorified G
Member
Better than 'tard pack.
wapplew
Member
Lets go back a little and really look into this topic.
Is console market really slowly shrinking, if yes, what cause it? If no, why we need to change?
From my understanding, if we only talk about TV console, the only market that really shrinking fast is Japan. The west is mostly the same, Asia (outside Japan) is growing, don't know much about middle east or Africa.
If we look at console LTD each generation, we are talking about what? 200M+ total?
So, 2 years in we are looking at 70M-75M this generation, on course of crashing that goal.
Let's say it is shrinking for the sake of argument. What's the biggest reason?
I think most of us agree it's because of mobile. Mobile takes away most of the casual, parents buy tablet instead of console for their kids, kids grow up with mobile will not resonate with console like we do, therefor console market stop getting new customers.
So, how does iterative console business model like OP said can help in this situation? Why is it the necessary change? How does this model make parent choose a console instead of a tablet for their kids?
If the question is how do console fight mobile, iterative model is not the answer.
Just speak for yourself buddy, i'll always be there to pick up devices day one, because i can.
justsomeguy
Member
agree with your post & sentiment but bemused by this bit. What's with the dig at MS for making a free BC programme?
justsomeguy
Member
Well labelling it the Pspoor isn't helping anyone for starters.
Pspoor and xbone 😅