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[iTehDroiD]

Exactly. Consoles were designed to be forward thinking, look at Uncharted Drakes Fortune then look at The Last of Us both games on the same generation of console and TLOU looks incredible purely because of lessons learned and mature dev tools.

Stop comparing ps3 optimization with ps4 optimization. PS3 was incredibly hard to code for and took lots of years to fully understand how to utilize the cell processor correctly. PS4 is based on the x86 architectur and is pretty easy to develope for since it's basically a PC. Developers are already utilizing more of the PS4 compared to the ps3 at the same time. You wont see the massiv difference at the end of the ps4 lifecycle as you saw with ps3. There will be a difference but it won't be as big as we saw with the ps3. PS3 just had a much higher learning curve compared to PS4 now.

I think console optimization gets overrated because of PS3. Don't get me wrong, you can still optimize your games much better for a console because you know exactly what you are coding for. I'm just saying that I feel people expect to much because of the ps3.

 

[m4st4]

I'm going to try and talk about a point of view that you won't see much in an enthusiast site like GAF.

This is huge for people with a limited budget. Really. And by huge I mean good.

Before, people with a limited budget or a different set of priorities had to buy their console at the tail of a generation. They enjoyed what they got for a while, but sooner rather than later a new device would release and eventually lock them out of the new games.

With this option, you get:

1) A low end model at 99-150€/$ were profits are small but you focus on making it as affordable as possible in order to get more people in your ecosystem.
2) A mid tier model that can be bought a for 200-300€ were Sony gets slightly better profits and should have a longer lasting appeal, since it isn't on its dawn.
3) A high tier model at 350-400€/$ geared towards a more enthusiast audience.

People circumstances change over time. Sometimes you don't have enough money, sometimes your priorities are different and you can't justify spending 400€/$ on a unnecessary device. With this model, these people can just buy a lower tier model and enjoy it until your situation has changes and you can get a better option.

And, at 99/150€, you are getting a glorified set top box that on top of having the games your kids want has a Blu-Ray player and a lot of media features. This could be great for stuff like PlayStation Vue too.

Yeah, but when I bought PS2, PS3 and PS4 they weren't considered to be 'low tier' models, they were a five year promises, a unified box that will get all the necessary software, upgraded and perfected throughout console's lifespan and for the right price.

 

[TheLegendOfMart]

Stop comparing ps3 optimization with ps4 optimization. PS3 was incredibly hard to code for and took lots of years to fully understand how to utilize the cell processor correctly. PS4 is based on the x86 architectur and is pretty easy to develope for since it's basically a PC. Developers are already utilizing more of the PS4 compared to the ps3 at the same time. You wont see the massiv difference at the end of the ps4 lifecycle as you saw with ps3. There will be a difference but it won't be as big as we saw with the ps3. PS3 just had a much higher learning curve compared to PS4 now.

I think console optimization gets overrated because of PS3. Don't get me wrong, you can still optimize your games much better for a console because you know exactly what you are coding for. I'm just saying that I feel people expect to much because of the ps3.

The PS4 isn't a PC though. It has different memory bus, unified ram, twice the amount of physical cores than most PCs, at the time it had more ACEs than most PC GPUs which means it had better multithreaded shader capability so the GPU just doesn't sit idle waiting for commands, just look at Mediamolecule Dreams graphics are made 100% in Compute rather than Rasterization.

PC games run well through brute force rather than optimisation.

Dev tools mature over time as they figure out how best to utilise the power in creative ways, you can't do that with PC as there are always new CPUs and GPUs just around the corner.

I wasn't saying you would have a good leap in graphical fidelity but Mark Cerny designed the PS4 to have untapped potential.

 

[RalchAC]

Yeah, but when I bought PS2, PS3 and PS4 they weren't considered to be 'low tier' models, they were a five year promises, a unified box that will get all the necessary software, upgraded and perfected throughout console's lifespan and for the right price.

Everything will be the low tier model sooner or later.

The PS4 you bought now has been the premium device for three years and a half and will be the mid-tier model for another three years.

The reality is that when you buy a console you bought a device that was going to get all necessary software with good enough visuals and a reasonable performance during the next 5-7 years. The only difference between the PS3 in 2012 and the PS4 in 2017 is that now it's harder to ignore the fact that the device you bought isn't "premium" anymore because there are more powerful consoles available instead of just PCs.

You shouldn't have bought the console earlier based on promises and the thought that Sony will keep the status quo. You should have made an informed purchase based on reality (exclusives, software releasing in the short and mid term, features...). If you bought it because of hype or other impulsive reasons it's not Sony's fault but yours. Not trying to be offensive, really. Maybe Sony haven't sent the message in the best way possible (but who would have said there would be a new and improved model in three years and a half?).

In the end, you should think if the purchase you made was worth it. Did you enjoy your time with the PS4 enough to justify the money you spent? If the answer is no, don't be an early adopter anymore, or at least for the PS4k.

In any case, I wasn't speaking about enthusiasts like you, but why I think this strategy is good for a wider market, especially the budget conscious one (something that was already mentioned by the OP)

 

[GamerMax73]

Not sure if this has been brought up yet:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSYBO1BrB1I&feature=youtu.be

Now that is an interesting video! With apologies to @onQ123, we know the Neo is rumored to have double the CU's to PS4. What we don't know is where those CU's are. Sure I expect most of what that video was discussing to be more relevant to PS5 than Neo, and the balance or probability is that Neo will just have more cores on one die, Looking towards VR, and AMD's masterplan, the setup for Neo may be a bit different to what we first thought.

This stuff blows my mind and makes me want to learn more. I can see from AMD's POV wanting to use consoles as the trojan horse to push multi-CPU and multi-GPU tech against Intel and nVidia who have both long profited on the more brute force approach.

 

[m4st4]

Did you enjoy your time with the PS4 enough to justify the money you spent? If the answer is no, don't be an early adopter anymore, or at least for the PS4k.

I did... I enjoyed playing all the remasters (TPP and Witcher 3 excluded) - see the irony. I firmly believe this is the first truly great year for PS4 and to think that we can expect yet another hardware upgrade early next year makes me want to re-think my purchase decisions and definitely not be an early adopter anymore. I'll buy NX cause it's new Nintendo and my WiiU is unfortunately no more but that's it for (at least) three-five years in the future. There's an economical line that I simply cannot cross and since PS4K means a complete refresh for the entire home entertainment system (console+TV+VR) I think Sony crossed that line for many early adopters, or even recent PS4 buyers. As always, time will tell, but I'm going to remain pessimistic about the whole situation until numbers prove me wrong (32 mil.+ vs... ?).

 

[Bitch Pudding]

With this option, you get:

1) A low end model at 99-150€/$ were profits are small but you focus on making it as affordable as possible in order to get more people in your ecosystem.
2) A mid tier model that can be bought a for 200-300€ were Sony gets slightly better profits and should have a longer lasting appeal, since it isn't on its dawn.
3) A high tier model at 350-400€/$ geared towards a more enthusiast audience.

This is not how this business model works (I guess).

First of all, I asume Sony will follow Apple's example: Provide a premium console and a cheaper one, but not an additional cheap one. I have no doubt we'll see Vanilla PS4 at $249 quite soon, maybe even $199 at some point. But I just don't think Sony is going to offer Vanilla PS4 anymore when they introduce PS4k's successor. And I don't think it's possible to sell PS4 at cost for less than that.

Second, you speak of "profit". But each SKU is more or less sold at cost. Sony makes profit from Software, subcriptions and royalties and in order to to so, they have an interest to sell as many consoles as possible. Just as J.D Rockefeller once worte: "We had to teach the people to burn oil by making lamps for them.”

 

[GamerMax73]

This is not how this business model works (I guess).

First of all, I asume Sony will follow Apple's example: Provide a premium console and a cheaper one, but not an additional cheap one. I have no doubt we'll see Vanilla PS4 at $249 quite soon, maybe even $199 at some point. But I just don't think Sony is going to offer Vanilla PS4 anymore when they introduce PS4k's successor. And I don't think it's possible to sell PS4 at cost for less than that.

You forget PS-Now. PS-Now is the low tier. This is all part of a a wider strategy by Sony. The big question is what happens to Neo when it's successor is released?

 

[Bitch Pudding]

You forget PS-Now. PS-Now is the low tier. This is all part of a a wider strategy by Sony. The big question is what happens to Neo when it's successor is released?

PSNow is not a "PlayStation SKU" though, all you need is an enabled Smart TV (and a controller of course).

And yes, that's part of Sony's wider strategy, a business field which complements the existing one, but won't replace it (anytime soon).

 

[MogCakes]

PSNow is not a "PlayStation SKU" though, all you need is an enabled Smart TV (and a controller of course).

And yes, that's part of Sony's wider strategy, a business field which complements the existing one, but won't replace it (anytime soon).

You could consider it part of the PS ecosystem, which I see moving towards a hardware agnostic platform model.

 

[TheLegendOfMart]

You shouldn't have bought the console earlier based on promises and the thought that Sony will keep the status quo. You should have made an informed purchase based on reality (exclusives, software releasing in the short and mid term, features...)

You mean the reality that console generations last at least 5 years before a new one comes along? I should have borrowed your crystal ball to see what Sonys plans were so I didn't have to buy PS4.

"Thanks for buying our console and making us a success, now you can go ahead and buy the new one, you're welcome"

 

[GamerMax73]

You could consider it part of the PS ecosystem, which I see moving towards a hardware agnostic platform model.

Thank you.

 

[RalchAC]

I did... I enjoyed playing all the remasters (TPP and Witcher 3 excluded) - see the irony. I firmly believe this is the first truly great year for PS4 and to think that we can expect yet another hardware upgrade early next year makes me want to re-think my purchase decisions and definitely not be an early adopter anymore. I'll buy NX cause it's new Nintendo and my WiiU is unfortunately no more but that's it for (at least) three-five years in the future. There's an economical line that I simply cannot cross and since PS4K means a complete refresh for the entire home entertainment system (console+TV+VR) I think Sony crossed that line for many early adopters, or even recent PS4 buyers. As always, time will tell, but I'm going to remain pessimistic about the whole situation until numbers prove me wrong (32 mil.+ vs... ?).

Yeah... in the end perceived value is an important thing. Companies will do whatever they want and make moves that, many times, aren't for the best of our interests but part of a bigger scheme. That's why we must be extra careful when we buy stuff! In any case, hope you enjoy your PS4 in 2016 (really, this year is the first time I've actually been thinking "damn I need to buy one") and both the PS4 and the NX next year and beyond. Not being an early adopter can be a bit stressful when you are part of an enthusiast community like GAF, but it's perfectly doable.

This is not how this business model works (I guess).

First of all, I asume Sony will follow Apple's example: Provide a premium console and a cheaper one, but not an additional cheap one. I have no doubt we'll see Vanilla PS4 at $249 quite soon, maybe even $199 at some point. But I just don't think Sony is going to offer Vanilla PS4 anymore when they introduce PS4k's successor. And I don't think it's possible to sell PS4 at cost for less than that.

Second, you speak of "profit". But each SKU is more or less sold at cost. Sony makes profit from Software, subcriptions and royalties and in order to to so, they have an interest to sell as many consoles as possible. Just as J.D Rockefeller once worte: "We had to teach the people to burn oil by making lamps for them.”

Apple is a premium brand. But what about Samsung, or Sony, or any other manufacturer that sell phones for the rest of the world?

The PS4 wasn't making a loss at release. And it took nearly 2 years before it got its first pricecut. I'm sure there were profits there.

That doesn't change the fact that profits came mainly from services and royalties. But the PS4 being at launch price for almost two years must have given Sony quite a bit of money too. That's what I meant.

 

[Bitch Pudding]

Yeah... in the end perceived value is an important thing. Companies will do whatever they want and make moves that, many times, aren't for the best of our interests but part of a bigger scheme. That's why we must be extra careful when we buy stuff! In any case, hope you enjoy your PS4 in 2016 (really, this year is the first time I've actually been thinking "damn I need to buy one") and both the PS4 and the NX next year and beyond. Not being an early adopter can be a bit stressful when you are part of an enthusiast community like GAF, but it's perfectly doable.



Apple is a premium brand. But what about Samsung, or Sony, or any other manufacturer that sell phones for the rest of the world?

The PS4 wasn't making a loss at release. And it took nearly 2 years before it got its first pricecut. I'm sure there were profits there.

That doesn't change the fact that profits came mainly from services and royalties. But the PS4 being at launch price for almost two years must have given Sony quite a bit of money too. That's what I meant.

There's just no real business reason to target that super cost-conscious buyers with a $99 console. First of all, those don't buy as much games as the others and if they do - guess what - they buy discounted or used games. Or they play F2P games on their $199 smartphones from Samsung. If there was such a market, MS would still produce XBOX 360 or Nintendo the Wii right now. Well, I guess the truth is in the Pudding, so I am right. :>

You could consider it part of the PS ecosystem, which I see moving towards a hardware agnostic platform model.

I do, I just don't asume Sony is going to abandon it's console hardware business anytime soon because of that, so I rather call it a complementary platform model, not an agnostic one.

 

[Fafalada]

None.

Would you put money down on that one?

Yeah, but when I bought PS2, PS3 and PS4 they weren't considered to be 'low tier' models

Except for the fact that PS3 literally launched with a low-tier/high-tier models and subsequently released multiple lowered-tier revisions afterwards. Or you know - the whole "Elite" part of a certain XBox SKU.
Or how about the PS2 from series 5000 onwards coming with a built in network-adapter(at sub 199$ IIRC) - that must have really screwed over the early Japanese adapters that paid 400$ for console and 150$ for the add-on...

 

[TheLegendOfMart]

Would you put money down on that one?


Except for the fact that PS3 literally launched with a low-tier/high-tier models and subsequently released multiple lowered-tier revisions afterwards. Or you know - the whole "Elite" part of a certain XBox SKU.
Or how about the PS2 from series 5000 onwards coming with a built in network-adapter(at sub 199$ IIRC) - that really screwed over the early Japanese adapters that paid 400$ for console and 150$ for the add-on...

Yeah because having a bigger HDD meant games looked twice as good and ran a lot better.

 

[Razgreez]

Yeah because having a bigger HDD meant games looked twice as good and ran a lot better.

No but even worse it gave you access to games which you would never have otherwise been able to play (FF XI)

 

[RalchAC]

There's just no real business reason to target that super cost-conscious buyers with a $99 console. First of all, those don't buy as much games as the others and if they do - guess what - they buy discounted or used games. Or they play F2P games on their $199 smartphones from Samsung. If there was such a market, MS would still produce XBOX 360 or Nintendo the Wii right now. Well, I guess the truth is in the Pudding, so I am right. :>

I do, I just don't see Sony will try to abandon its console hardware business anytime soon because of that, so I rather call it a complemenaty platform model, not an agnostic one.

You may be right, I'm not sure. I'm probably not as versed in economics as you.

But before this gen there were many consoles selling at 99€/$. Didn't the PS2 sold quite well in the US in 2007/2008 due to its low price and the extensive library?

 

[Bitch Pudding]

You may be right, I'm not sure. I'm probably not as versed in economics as you.

But before this gen there were many consoles selling at 99€/$. Didn't the PS2 sold quite well in the US in 2007/2008 due to its low price and the extensive library?

Sure, but at that time, there wasn't a cheap substitute like mobile gaming (on smartphones).

 

[jroc74]

I mentioned something earlier about generations.

Did we, do we really expect consoles to last X amount of years before the next version comes out? I never did. Even tho last gen I remember the years I got all my consoles I didnt expect to see a PS4, XBO in 2013...a Wii U in 2012...until I saw leaks of each one and saw the announcements.

I didnt get out a calendar and say:

"Hmmm...lets see now. PS3, 360, Wii came out this year...PS4, XBO, Wii U is coming that year....Yup. They right on schedule.."

Honestly....do we really do this?

I got the 360 Slim in 2010 or 2011. I didnt say to myself "damn it!! I should have held off on getting that revision!!! The next gen is here!!! My PS3 died right after the PS4 launched. I still got another PS3....I also got a PS4 but still....

And this is last gen to current gen.

 

[TheLegendOfMart]

I mentioned something earlier about generations.

Did we, do we really expect consoles to last X amount of years before the next version comes out? I never did. Even tho last gen I remember the years I got all my consoles I didnt expect to see a PS4, XBO in 2013...a Wii U in 2012...until I saw leaks of each one and saw the announcements.

I didnt get out a calendar and say:

"Hmmm...lets see now. PS3, 360, Wii came out this year...PS4, XBO, Wii U is coming that year....Yup. They right on schedule.."

Honestly....do we really do this?

I got the 360 Slim in 2010 or 2011. I didnt say to myself "damn it!! I should have held off on getting that revision!!! The next gen is here!!! My PS3 died right after the PS4 launched. I still got another PS3....I also got a PS4 but still....

And this is last gen to current gen.

Yes. Sega tried mid-gen upgrades with 32X and SegaCD and both failed miserably. Every generation has lasted at least 5 years.

 

[GamerMax73]

Yes. Sega tried mid-gen upgrades with 32X and SegaCD and both failed miserably.

The 32X and SegaCD are not really good analogies though. They were additional modular purchases that required pre-existing hardware. That and the games were developed specifically for those platforms.

Neo on the other hand is totally separate hardware that doesn't not require pre-existing ownership of a PS4 to buy in. Also, it will be the same game disc, the same game sku, for both PS4 and Neo. You're not going to see a Neo version of the gaming sitting in a game store next to a PS4 version - you would have seen 32X, SegaCD, and MegaDrive games sold and displayed separately.

PSVR is closer in an add-on platform analogy to 32X/SegaCD than Neo is. As was Move, Kinnect, etc.

Although many don't like it - mobile is the closest analogy. The difference is we're not expecting as quick a turn over in hardware as in the mobile space, we're not expecting as many iterations to be supported at one time as in the mobile space, and we're not expecting the hardware to be directly subsided on purchase as in the mobile space.

 

[Moneal]

Why do people keep saying phones are subsidized? Mobile carriers have moved to lease or monthly plans. When you buy a phone and plan now, you are paying full price or you don't own the phone(and are still paying for it).

 

[Jacksinthe]

So, the less we wait, the better for dev? By this logic, 2 years iteration is better than 3, 1 years is better than 2, 6 month is better than 12?

Not necessarily.

-You need time to see some evolvement in architecture

-The consumer base should be ready or willing to upgrade, plenty of people even wait longer after a "gen" ends before buying new boxes, this will hopefully catch them

I find this weird coming from mostly indie devs like yourself, who aren't actually developing games that are that technically or graphically advanced in the first place, and don't really even make extensive use of the current hardware let alone larger jumps. Add to that, with iterative console releases you'll still have to develop for more hardware versions and variants, so it's not like it's not more work in other areas.

You're also speaking on behalf of AAA devs, many of whom (like Epic and Crytek) actually want far more advanced hardware to push their engines and tech even further. It's not like devs even have to, or are forced to push bleeding edge graphics despite getting massive jumps in hardware, they can continue to make graphically less advanced games like your own studio for example, brute forcing things where necessary, which should be easier the more powerful the hardware is.

Also, unlike you, other devs and gamers actually put massive weight and importance on the visuals and tech behind games, it's actually one of the biggest selling points of a new console in the first place, so in that respect that "massive coming to grips process", that you don't regard as "actual gamedev", is to many, up there as one of the most important aspects of game development progress.

Because time and money during production are irrelevant to AAA devs. Mmhmm. /s

Also, being indie we do make our own tools, in case you glossed over the several times I've mentioned it in posts. Doesn't always have to be about power. But you seem to know a lot about gamedev. By all means, tell every dev how it actually is since you know so much more than we indie and even AAA devs!

And saying I don't regard the tools process as part of "gamedev" - it is. Very much so. Where did I say it wasn't? Ever?

I've said the meat and potatoes is the GAME, not the tools. That doesn't mean it's not a part of gamedev especially since ive mentioned it a zillion times.

So show me where I explicitly state that tools is not a part of the entire process? I've been driving home the point about tools forever in regards to game development.

You are either purposefully trolling by putting words in my mouth since I've mentioned it not just as a part of gamedev but even mentioned how it contributes to devs leaving the biz, in which case, fuck off - or - you are daft.

I haven't made up my mind yet.

Edit: you know what? I take that back. I'll leave it up here but I'll lean off.

You are free to be as ignorant as you wish.

 

[-ImaginaryInsider]

Yeah because having a bigger HDD meant games looked twice as good and ran a lot better.

There was a performance difference between the 360 with a HDD and a 360 without a HDD.

But his actual point is PS4k is just an extension of a trend console gamers have largely accepted some varation of without minding all that much for at least one generation, if not two.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Especially since a UHD BD drive requires very little additional technology compared to regular BD. Same laser is used and it just needs to be able to read another 2 layers which has been trivial the last 3 years and existing BD production facilities can be used for UHD BDs.
Some (Jeff Rigby mostly) even claim the original PS4 BD player can be updated to UHD BD with a firmware upgrade as it's already new enough to possibly support the hardware required for the extra layers.

More info found:

UHD Game Consoles shipped in 2013 but won't be firmware updated to support it till 2016.. There is a second paper naming both the XB1 and PS4 as UHD game consoles.

So this is understood as confirmed:

The PS4 has a HDMI 2 port with HDCP taking place in Southbridge and the GPGPU block mentioned by Eurogamer in the PS4 and XB1 are Xtensa DSP accelerators that are used for HEVC and OpenVX (Vision processing and Codecs using GPGPU with special blocks that are 20-100X more efficient than CPU or GPU GPGPU at some tasks.)

And for the Player software and License for UHD Game Console

There is a BDA Licence for UHD Blu-ray game consoles and Sony has a License for a BD-ROM4 Movie Player/BD-ROM Game Console/BD-ROM Test Player and a License for a UHD Blu-ray PC application.. BD-ROM4 is the UHD blu-ray version. What was confusing was that it was for a Category that included all Embedded platforms where the Manufacturer has control over the drive and all DRM; I.E. Stand alone UHD Blu-ray players and Game Consoles.

There is no such thing as a UHD drive; there is no UHD Drive in the PS4 or the coming Neo.

A modern HD Blu-ray drive can be firmware updated to support UHD (Version 2 disks = 33GB/layer). They must buy a Licence and provide a server for pairing/Key encryption between the drive and Player across the USB or eSATA bus (Embedded players = game consoles don't need this). ALL blu-ray drives can read three or more layers. It's the disk that is special not the drive; this is mentioned in Wiki pages.

Key is understanding that UHD in all it's forms and Vidipath use the same open source standards >> HTML5 and a UHD TV display is a web page. ALL UHD including TV supports DRM via HTML5 <video> MSE EME standard and a common DRM chosen for Vidipath is Playready.

For sure the browser in the PS4 is getting a major update and just about everything finalized by the Vidipath organization and W3C WebTV committee is coming for the Game Consoles from Launch models forward.

 

[TheLegendOfMart]

There was a performance difference between the 360 with a HDD and a 360 without a HDD.

But his actual point is PS4k is just an extension of a trend console gamers have largely accepted some varation of without minding all that much for at least one generation, if not two.

Except it's not. OK some games might load quicker but the graphics weren't noticeably better.

 

[jroc74]

Yes. Sega tried mid-gen upgrades with 32X and SegaCD and both failed miserably. Every generation has lasted at least 5 years.

Thats the thing...you say yes... I stated I have never done this...Maybe some did, maybe some didnt. Maybe some do now, maybe some dont now.

Again, alot of stuff like generation length and multi platform game performing better on X console... I had no idea about until joining GAF.

Thats my point in all of this.

And for the example you listed is it because they came mid gen the only reason for them failing? Just like when ppl post examples of the n3DS as reasons this is a bad idea. The funny thing tho is the n3DS and Sega 32X, CD share one thing in common: exclusive games.

Exclusive features does not equal exclusive games. I think Sony is smart with the way they are approaching this. Its risky tho.

 

[Bl4ckSunsh1n3]

Realistically, no matter how you look at it there is as much negative feedback towards this as positive. It's the first time I can remember for a console, not handhelds, that this has happened. Anyone who thinks this will be a smashing success is going to be disappointed. It will have it's adopters sure but, it is quite possible that this brand of console iterations gets rejected by the general population.

The opposite is always possible as well, obviously. I'm just remarking that this is the most negative feedback I've seen from this kind of thing.

 

[The Artisan]

Yes, it's amazing what the simple things can do for conversation! I'm not trying to be hostile, it's just painfully obvious when you guys try to stretch your personal stance by ginning up wider group support for it. Yes, there are people agreeing with you in this and other threads like it, but that doesn't establish how widespread the sentiment really is.

most of us in this thread might be hardcore playstation owners so of course I wasn't speaking for everyone. but ok. you made your point.

 

[Inuhanyou]

Okay, as far as I can tell the historical average leap between generations is closer to a 5x performance boost not 10.

Not the case for PS1 to PS2 or PS3 to PS4. The GPU's alone are far beyond 5x, the RAM jumps are traditionally 15x+ and the CPU jumps while smaller have been higher than 5x, atleast before the 7th gen.

Use PS4 as your base model not Neo to get the generational performance boost. The starting point is 1.8TFlops not 4TFLops. I doubt at the moment PS5 will be much greater than 10TFlop. Now go away and multiply 1.8 by 5. Now multiply 4 by 2.5. Notice how close the answers are to those two sums? Guess what, the generational leap hasn't changed - a half way house has just been inserted, nothing more.

So....its still a decent leap by your logic GPU wise? i don't see anything controversial about that.

 

[backbreaker65]

GAMERS, will kill GAMES.

 

[Inuhanyou]

Because you are not getting that power increase anymore, it'll be frequent incremental new releases, generations are gone.

Think PC model. That's what is going to happen now.

I don't see where you got that from. The PS4K is what Sony could do because they already had the PS4 HW on hand and this is coming in the middle of a gaming cycle built for those low end boxes. PS4K is just a box built to give a higher ceiling to those 8th generation games, its not taking advantage of the hardware in the manner that would affect design.

But in 2020, a marginal improvement on Jaguar, a small increase in RAM speed and bandwidth, and a GPU increase of 2x isn't going to fly for developers looking to expand their horizons based on tech that was not that strong in 2011.

By definition, there is going to have to be a cut off point because of Zen, because of HBM, because of further process node shrinks that are not going to be feasible for devs to keep complete feature parity with.

 

[jeff_rigby]

I don't see where you got that from. The PS4K is what Sony could do because they already had the PS4 HW on hand and this is coming in the middle of a gaming cycle built for those low end boxes. PS4K is just a box built to give a higher ceiling to those 8th generation games, its not taking advantage of the hardware in the manner that would affect design.

But in 2020, a marginal improvement on Jaguar, a small increase in RAM speed and bandwidth, and a GPU increase of 2x isn't going to fly for developers looking to expand their horizons based on tech that was not that strong in 2011.

By definition, there is going to have to be a cut off point because of Zen, because of HBM, because of further process node shrinks that are not going to be feasible for devs to keep complete feature parity with.

Watch the Youtube on AMD's Master plan. Long but full of facts that make sense given what we have been hearing for the last two years. The ending includes what we will see in 2020 or so.

https://youtu.be/aSYBO1BrB1I

 

[Jacksinthe]

Realistically, no matter how you look at it there is as much negative feedback towards this as positive. It's the first time I can remember for a console, not handhelds, that this has happened. Anyone who thinks this will be a smashing success is going to be disappointed. It will have it's adopters sure but, it is quite possible that this brand of console iterations gets rejected by the general population.

The opposite is always possible as well, obviously. I'm just remarking that this is the most negative feedback I've seen from this kind of thing.

100:1 says if tweets made as representations for "most developers" disliking it never happened, the negative impact would be far, far less.

The internet in this case serves as self-validation for any negative feedback and many of us devs have stated the same thing over and over again as answers to a zillion different questions and the bottom line remains the same.

Truth is there is a "most developers" but it has to be on the other side by multiple counts. Neo, if true, would not be happening unless a majority of devs were on board. Unfortunately, hyperbole rules this conversation regardless of what is the truth. We see no corrections, no further discussions, only incessant, childlike rants and a bunch of developers wading in through this mess only to be told "NUH UH! BUT BUT BUT" by everyone.

 

[Mr. Giggles]

100:1 says if tweets made as representations for "most developers" disliking it never happened, the negative impact would be far, far less.

The internet in this case serves as self-validation for any negative feedback and many of us devs have stated the same thing over and over again as answers to a zillion different questions and the bottom line remains the same.

Truth is there is a "most developers" but it has to be on the other side by multiple counts. Neo, if true, would not be happening unless a majority of devs were on board. Unfortunately, hyperbole rules this conversation regardless of what is the truth. We see no corrections, no further discussions, only incessant, childlike rants and a bunch of developers wading in through this mess only to be told "NUH UH! BUT BUT BUT" by everyone.

Sooooo why don't you and other devs make some sort opinion piece with a media outlet countering these points.... this thread is on a messaging board but its a good start. ..

However, all we've got is one questionable tweet and an opinion piece from the head of bioware saying its a bad idea

 

[Lady Gaia]

I still can't understand how the problem with forward compability is a non issue with so much posters when just a couple months ago almost everyone was complaining about remasters and crossgen.

The problem with remastered is having to buy the game a second time to get whatever improvements the developer feels like adding. Forward compatibility solves that problem.

The problems with crossgen are more complicated. They're going to be substantially mitigated by numerous factors here: single software SKU supporting both products. Shared architecture, tools, and APIs. The games aren't "ported" in this case but rather you're almost certainly getting a single paramaterized executable that enables specific rendering paths but little else. The two systems in question represent only three years of technical evolution rather than an eight-year generational leap.

 

[Lady Gaia]

However, all we've got is one questionable tweet and an opinion piece from the head of bioware saying its a bad idea

The founder of BioWare, retired since 2012. I'd be a lot more interested in what anyone actively involved in development at BioWare has to say but of course they'd be under NDA. The positive stories are likely to make their appearance once there's an official announcement.

 

[Jacksinthe]

Sooooo why don't you and other devs make some sort opinion piece with a media outlet countering these points.... this thread is on a messaging board but its a good start. ..

However, all we've got is one questionable tweet and an opinion piece from the head of bioware saying its a bad idea

It's not our job to police pundits or ourselves. Perhaps reputable journalists can reach out and ask for opinions.

 

[Mr. Giggles]

The founder of BioWare, retired since 2012. I'd be a lot more interested in what anyone actively involved in development at BioWare has to say but of course they'd be under NDA. The positive stories are likely to make their appearance once there's an official announcement.

Just because he's retired doesn't make his opinion somehow moot, does it.

I agree it would be nice to have someone actively working in development speak up but they can't.

Besides, I'm sure there will be plenty of "positives" to this once announced.... just like how were told by devs that the raw power of the PS4 would allow them to do amazing things.. also like how those same devs will also likely tell us how PS4K will ALSO let them do amazing things

until PS5 of course

It's not our job to police pundits or ourselves. Perhaps reputable journalists can reach out and ask for opinions.

that would be ideal yes

edit:

With that said, there are journalists that post here (I've heard good things about this Jschrier fellow) as do devs with support for the NEO.....surely something can be done under anonymity

 

[HandsomeCharles]

Sooooo why don't you and other devs make some sort opinion piece with a media outlet countering these points.... this thread is on a messaging board but its a good start. ..

Making a negative statement regarding the actions/directions that a platform holder has taken is a really good way to get in their bad books. You'd need to have some serious clout in the industry to get out of that unscathed. That and NDA's.

 

[Chabbles]

Just because he's retired doesn't make his opinion somehow moot, does it.

Not only that, If he's retired it makes his opinion more trustworthy if he has absolutely no attachment or skin in the game, and just giving his candid unbiased opinion.

 

[potatohead]

Sooooo why don't you and other devs make some sort opinion piece with a media outlet countering these points.... this thread is on a messaging board but its a good start. ..

However, all we've got is one questionable tweet and an opinion piece from the head of bioware saying its a bad idea

The PS4K isn't even officially announced that's why.

I presume this is a controlled leak to get the strongest emotions out of people early so people can get proper excited at E3 for a sweet console.

 

[Mr. Giggles]

Making a negative statement regarding the actions/directions that a platform holder has taken is a really good way to get in their bad books. You'd need to have some serious clout in the industry to get out of that unscathed. That and NDA's.

Fair enough, although there must be devs or publishers not under NDA that have an opinion on the matter

Not only that, If he's retired it makes his opinion more trustworthy if he has absolutely no attachment or skin in the game, and just giving his candid unbiased opinion.

This

The PS4K isn't even officially announced that's why.

I presume this is a controlled leak to get the strongest emotions out of people early so people can get proper excited at E3 for a sweet console.

Excited..... that's one way to phrase it

 

[DavidDesu]

I don't see the problem with Sony wanting to broaden their market share.

PS4 will become cheaper and continue its sales dominance.

PS4K will cater to the crowd who threaten to go the PC route but will be reigned back in because frankly PS4K will still be a cheaper and all round easier route to getting good performance from your games, plus they can keep all their existing software.

Each new generation has always been a huge risk and also a huge pain for consumers. That expensive software library you built up doesn't get supported in the new console, software takes years to really ramp up for the new system and its all round not beneficial to anyone.

The pace and cost of current tech means to make an affordable console these days, one that can sell well, it will at best match rather than supercede what's available on a triple the cost PC. So to make sure the console platform isn't years behind Sony are doing this, Microsoft and even Nintendo possibly following too. We just have to accept that. The benefit to us means more steady progress meaning games are cross compatible and bought for one price, and likely forward compatible for years to come/indefinitely. There won't be long game droughts as devs ramp down on one system and ramp up for another, it will be a far more fluid form of progress across the generations with a steadier flow
of games. That's what I predict anyway.

 

[HandsomeCharles]

Fair enough, although there must be devs or publishers not under NDA that have an opinion on the matter

Well, I can give you my personal opinion as a Mobile dev if you want. Hardware fragmentation and "legacy" support is one of the most frustrating things that I have to contend with on a regular basis. My job would be a lot simpler if there were very distinct cut-offs for device generations or if everyone on one operating system had exactly the same hardware.

If the console space is now going to follow a similar iterative cycle then it is going to be frustrating for developers, and there will be many consumers who will find themselves "out of date" or "unsupported" a lot quicker than was previously the case.

In other words, I'm not a fan.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

That's not gonna happen. People saw how much 360/PS3 held back XB1/PS4 games.

This shit is gonna get messy once PS5 hits. PS4 will get retired and PS4.5 will be what the PS4 was, except now games are being held back by a console that is at least 5x less powerful.

If PS5 is full 4k that alone going to take up a lot of PS5 power .
We are getting to point that it going to be hard to hold back games.
At least to a certain level .

 

[Mr. Giggles]

Well, I can give you my personal opinion as a Mobile dev if you want. Hardware fragmentation and "legacy" support is one of the most frustrating things that I have to contend with on a regular basis. My job would be a lot simpler if there were very distinct cut-offs for device generations or if everyone on one operating system had exactly the same hardware.

If the console space is now going to follow a similar iterative cycle then it is going to be frustrating for developers, and there will be many consumers who will find themselves "out of date" or "unsupported" a lot quicker than was previously the case.

In other words, I'm not a fan.

Interesting, whats your opinion on having a tool set evolve as opposed to say, starting again with a new system architecture? Has this accelerated you to put out products quicker or has that been offset by the increase in QA since you support multiple devices

 

[potatohead]

Excited..... that's one way to phrase it

There is a good reason to do it.

It's basically letting people drop softly, rather than all at once on announcement date. With these controlled leaks there is months to consider all the elements of what will happen and even a few extra months for people to get tired of the discussion entirely and already make up their mind.

So by the time it happens, everyone has already picked a camp and no longer really cares to vocalize their problems/support, at least not nearly as much.

Anytime there is major change people will get upset. And many will stay upset, but it will soften the blow when the change actually comes.

Such is life. Time is the key. A lot of resistant people are in the anger stage right now, yet a lot of people have already moved to acceptance.

 

[soul creator]

Sooooo why don't you and other devs make some sort opinion piece with a media outlet countering these points.... this thread is on a messaging board but its a good start. ..

However, all we've got is one questionable tweet and an opinion piece from the head of bioware saying its a bad idea

Wait, isn't the OP of the post you're in right now a developer who did exactly that?

edit: well I guess one could argue gamasutra isn't a mainstream media elite since it's probably mostly followed by other developers...