efyu_lemonardo
May I have a cookie?
exactly. not only are Nintendo unoriginal, their remakes are getting increasingly worse
Nintendo has been making the same games since the 80s
- Thread starter skypunch
- Start date
exactly. not only are Nintendo unoriginal, their remakes are getting increasingly worse
No, they have third parties for that. This is why Nintendo has to try and get all these companies to support the NX as they did the 3DS. Such a varied library would surely help them attract more people
You want narrative? How about 999, Zero Time Dilemma, or Ghost Trick Adventure
You want narrative? How about 999, Zero Time Dilemma, or Ghost Trick Adventure
Robottiimu2000
Member
They have been using the same characters in their games yes... which is part of the very character oriented Japanese game design philosophy, but they surely haven't been making the same game, though I can see why it's easy to mix up these things.
Blackquill
Member
Let's not compare a RPG with a Platformer where everything revolves around the level design (a domain where Nintendo excels at)
OrbitalBeard
Member
Surprisingly, I disagree. I adore the NES game but Punch-Out!! Wii is basically the perfect representation of that franchise, in my opinion. So much so that I actually wouldn't be sad if we never get another entry again. And Punch-Out!! is one of my favorite video game franchises of all time. All three home console games have been amazing.
packy34
Member
Fallout 4 is a WRPG with a weapon/armor crafting system, loot system, stats-based combat/dialogue, a settlement builder with thousands of options, etc.
Mario is a game where you jump on enemies, collect coins and stars, and jump on different types of platforms.
One isn't objectively better than the other, but I don't really see how anyone can say Fallout 4 doesn't have more going on in it than most Nintendo titles.
packy34
Member
We're talking about gameplay, not level design
Stilton Disco
Member
Just like it's 'supposed' to be a 2D metroidvania right?
One character in an isolated hostile environment wasn't some unique quality of Metroid games either. That was pretty much the norm for a hell of a lot, if not most action adventure games of its era. What set Metroid apart was its world and leading lady, both of which would be better served in the modern era by a more narrative driven game, otherwise it would continue to sell like shit like it's always done.
Not that I wouldn't want a more traditional 2D game mind, that would be great on 3DS (especially after playing Axiom Verge recently), and given both Other M and Federation Force, I'm pretty certain there's no one at Nintendo who gets or even likes the series enough to do it justice anyway, but a deviation from the norm for the series writing wise could rejuvenate the franchise in the same way Awakening did with Fire Emblem.
More on topic, I'm definitely feeling the fatigue with Nintendo these days. The last Smash and 2 Mario Karts just couldn't hold my interest, their 2D platformers are nothing but noise to me these days, their inability to build on past successes, attempts to constantly reinvent the wheel and penchant for putting hardware gimmicks above what the market wants are just infuriating.
And they are just so bad at writing narrative and characters. I mean just shockingly archaically incompetent by and large, and that is absolutely hurting them.
Brilliant storytelling and compelling characters can absolutely make a game that plays even slightly below average a wonderful, fulfilling experience, whereas you can make gameplay as tight and polished as you like, but unless your making a bite sized minigame/timed multiplayer matches, or disposable arcade/mobile/casual games, if the story is boring and characters lacking anything compelling, it's just boring.
And most Nintendo games are just boring from a story perspective. Amateurish, barely there scripts, zero world building and card board cut outs personalities do not a memorable, compelling experience make.
If it's a choice between a same franchise that tries new gameplay mechanics and ideas, and ones who are bacially the same as everything before it, but with a different graphical style and name on the box, I will gladly pick the former.
You're confusing width with depth imho. Fallout 4 indeed does all of those things and Mario does indeed mainly do that single thing, but I wouldn't call Fallout 4's systems 'deep'; most of them don't actually interact with each other in any real meaningful kind of way and are far more shallow then they appear.
Sir Ilpalazzo
Member
Fallout 4 is undoubtedly a bigger game than pretty much anything Nintendo has made. That doesn't mean that it is actually a deeper game - although it's much, much more complex, in true Bethesda fashion, not all of that is actually meaningful complexity (depth).
You're basically saying that window dressing makes up, like, 75% of the game experience here. I mean, there are tons of games that I love because they have cool and well-presented storylines - but the most memorable moments in games are born out of moment-to-moment play, not cutscenes.
It's really, really sad that you describe arcade games as "disposable", too.
neurosyphilis
Definitely not an STD, as I'm a pure.
I agree that's one reason why I never really fucked with Nintendo like that, becuase I'm into story driven games. I think the only story driven games Nintendo actually makes are Pokemon games , and I grew out of those many years ago. And also Zelda. I want to see Nintendo get out of their comfort zone with the NX and try new things.
SlipperyFishes
Banned
It's like if I said "Naighty Dog made their best cover shooter yet with The Last of Us"
Wouldn't be wrong, just awfully reductive
Red Arremer
Member
There was a lot more ohhing and ahhing over Xenoblade X and Fire Emblem than I've seen over Yoshi or Donkey Kong.
Yes, Nintendo has a lot of colourful "cutesy" games like Mario or Pokemon, but they also have a lot of franchises that appeal to other crowds.
You have games and franchises like Metroid, Xenoblade, Fire Emblem, Fatal Frame, Hotel Dusk, Bayonetta 2, Pandora's Tower, Geist, Another Code and Sin and Punishment, even Goldeneye 64, and that's just from the top of my head. I'm sure I could bring you more Nintendo developed/published games that clearly don't feature cutesy characters.
Sucks for them, because those studios dont release enough platformers, kart racers and Trading Card games for me.
See? That sounds really dumb doesn't it? It should, because different studios are different. Let Rockstar create their games without bothering them about why they don't make enough brightly colored mascot driven platformers for the little tykes. They don't need to cover the entire spectrum of gamings various genres; it's fine to be good at something and let the market cover other areas.
I literally only ever see Nintendo held to this absurd standard; where somehow they are expected to do every type of game ever. It's unrealistic, No studio has ever done it, and none ever will. Go buy a PS4/One/PC and join the rest of us that have figured this out.
Seriously.
Metroid doesn't really need additional characters to talk to or have active NPC roles as it takes away from everything the series offers and its experience. That stuff doesn't mix with what is liked and enjoyed about Metroid.
OrbitalBeard
Member
Well, that's certainly more "stuff", but I'd disagree that the things you mentioned are deeper in terms of gameplay.
I don't know op, from what I have seen, the big N are the most likely out of all of the big pubs to experiment (sometimes detrimentally) with their big properties.
That's not to say we don't get mots but it's often refined and built upon to such a degree it's hard to call them the same games.
That's not to say we don't get mots but it's often refined and built upon to such a degree it's hard to call them the same games.
Wiitardation
Member
OP lost me at Fallout 4 having compelling narrative and deep gameplay.
neurosyphilis
Definitely not an STD, as I'm a pure.
Besides maybe Gran Turismo what 90's IP does Sony still make ? I'll wait. And the MS point doesn't even make any since at all.
Completely agree with everything you've said in this post. One of my biggest problems with Nintendo & I really do think it is hurting them.
Red Arremer
Member
That's bullshit.
In order for this discussion to go anywhere though, a lot of gamers need to realize that some other gamers fucking LOATHE your GTA's RDR's Uncharteds, Fallout4's and MGS games and other 'narrative based' games. These games have stories for the most part that are cliche ridden, tryhard, junior highschool level writing. You may love them, but theres a shitload of gamers that hate them, and just want the gameplay; not some super deep story that feels fresh from an anime.
Thank you. I love how he threw Ratchet and Clank out there as if its the type of Game Sony still does OFTEN while pretending Nintendo doesn't do just as many movements into unfamiliar territory just the same.
Sony doesn't make very many platformers period. Once in a blue moon, and we were all surprised to get R&C. Its right on part with the Fire Emblems, Fatal Frames, Geists and whatnot of the world. Nice when they come along, but certainly not a super regular thing.
Thank you. I love how he threw Ratchet and Clank out there as if its the type of Game Sony still does OFTEN while pretending Nintendo doesn't do just as many movements into unfamiliar territory just the same.
Sony doesn't make very many platformers period. Once in a blue moon, and we were all surprised to get R&C. Its right on part with the Fire Emblems, Fatal Frames, Geists and whatnot of the world. Nice when they come along, but certainly not a super regular thing.
MatrixMan.EXE
Member
No they haven't. Although they're also guilty of what a lot of AAA publishers are guilty of doing, and that's playing it safe. Especially over recent years, I feel Nintendo's creativity is grossly overstated outside of Splatoon.
efyu_lemonardo
May I have a cookie?
There is certainly something to be said about the influence a strong narrative can have on your attachment to a game, and hence your enjoyment of the moment to moment gameplay, regardless of whether or not the gameplay in itself is technically deep.
The problem here is all those games you list are actually samey in the way that matters to me. Ratchet is a guided, cinematic TPS more than anything else. The design sensibilities are much closer to Killzone than Mario, even if it doesn't appear that way superficially. Don't be fooled by the difference in presentation.
Nintendo has been conservative this gen when it comes to radical changes to the formulas, but then again it's hard to argue against Splatoon's ink/traversal related mechanics and the glorious track designs in MK8.
packy34
Member
The settlement builder alone is deeper than things you'd find in most other games, if you're into that sort of thing.
To Far Away Times
Member
Nintendo makes some of the deepest games in the industry.
OnimaruXLR
Member
I'd be willing to bet that, from a game design standpoint, there is more evolution per sequel with your average Nintendo series than basically any other franchise in video games
I know that some people think that if it's the same characters, art style, and themes then it might as well be the same game, but that sounds like crazy talk to me.
I'd much rather take a sequel that mucks around with the game design or mechanics (or both) than a sequel that has a few cosmetic and narrative changes every (often annual) iteration with the core remaining intensely samey, the way that so many modern franchises do. Especially considering that as of TYOL 2016 the stories in most games, especially most big games with big budgets, remain terrible.
I know that some people think that if it's the same characters, art style, and themes then it might as well be the same game, but that sounds like crazy talk to me.
I'd much rather take a sequel that mucks around with the game design or mechanics (or both) than a sequel that has a few cosmetic and narrative changes every (often annual) iteration with the core remaining intensely samey, the way that so many modern franchises do. Especially considering that as of TYOL 2016 the stories in most games, especially most big games with big budgets, remain terrible.
Is it? I haven't touched it since the DLC. Was there much to do in it? It seemed half-baked. A lot of things linked to things and required things and gave this great illusion of things happening, but it was all pointless unless you wanted to make a pretty base because nothing actually happened with it.
And for Fire Emblem, it's doing so well, Nintendo now considers it a major IP so I expect many more games and spin-offs. Would be neat to see more takes on the series.
Neff
Member
And they do.
Fantastapotamus
Wrong about commas, wrong about everything
Alright, let's look at some Nintendo games this gen
Fire Emblem: Tactics game
Pikmin 3: Real-Time Tactics Game
Codename STEAM: Tactics game
Xenoblade: RPG
Mario&Luigi: RPG
Fatal Frame: Horror
Pull/Pushblox: Puzzle
Splatoon: Multiplayer Shooter
Bayonetta 2: Character Action Game
Mario: Jump'n'Run
Zelda: Adventure game (I guess?)
Star Fox: Rail-Shooter-y (Again, not sure what exactly that genre is)
Tokyo Mirage something: No idea what that game is
But of course, the only make Donkey Kong and Yoshi games, right? Yes, Nintendo games are generally targeted at "everybody", most of them aren't super violent. But so what? Everybody else already does violent games, we really aren't in a need for more of them.
First post nails it in my opinion.
packy34
Member
Nothing in it really affects the main story, but a lot of things happen inside of it that are self-contained, and you can just spend all of your time playing that if you wanted to. You affect how many people live in settlements, you feed them, give them places to sleep, things to do... It's basically a game inside the game, and it's disconnected because they didn't want people who don't enjoy sim/management games to be forced into it. But there is a lot going on there if you do enjoy it.
It's impossible to make a game that appeals to everyone. It's a contradictory statement.
Red Arremer
Member
I am one such person. I can't stand Bethesda games, GTA, Uncharted, MGS, etc.
Yup. It's uncommon for Sony/MS to publish something cutesy, Nintendo is the other way around, but it's not like it NEVER happens ever.
I would even argue that the Zelda titles where you control adult Link (Twilight Princess in particular, but also Skyward Sword and probably the upcoming Wii U/NX one) aren't cutesy, just a colourful and bright fantasy world, and in an industry where most games, even the fantasy ones, are brown and brown and brown, a bit of colour doesn't go wrong.
i think that's a bit of hyperbole for both companies. sony does stuff like tearaway (media.molecule being obviously their best studio), and can occasionally get insomniac to do a really nice ratchet & clank these days. there was also the critically well-received puppeteer, the littlebigplanet games, and the attempts at a more family market with sly cooper and a little further back, other platformers in the jak and daxter series. i don't think they do it to quite the same degree as a company like nintendo does it, and i don't think they do it with the same focus on mechanics or ideas like nintendo (although again, media.molecule was aces with tearaway). for a fan of nintendo games, i don't think a lot of what sony offers here is really cut from the same cloth.
in general, i don't think highly of sony as a first-party company software manufacturer though, which might have something to do with my general feeling that most of what they do has a cinematic lean that might negatively impact otherwise good ideas. it might be why i think god of war is borderline unplayable while bayonetta 1 is a damn near masterpiece. it's also probably why something like heavy rain, with all its good intentions from its creator, becomes a ridiculous farce when the focus seems to be on technology instead of other elements of the craft. and it's probably the reason for my ongoing criticism of naughty dog and their movie-games. although i did truly like the last of us despite more recent criticism of their treatment of characters (i think it'll be a good thing once the uncharted series is finally over).
similarly, i guess fans of the stuff sony puts out probably don't believe or don't care when someone brings up majora's mask or the wind waker as examples of games with quality storytelling and compelling characters. nor do they probably care that nintendo games have cutscenes when they're xenoblade, or the last story, or fire emblem. maybe it's because the genre is all wrong. maybe hotel dusk, which is more along the lines of a point and click adventure game, is one of the only things that gets close to the sort of thing people would want from them.
neurosyphilis
Definitely not an STD, as I'm a pure.
So only 2 new IP ? Way to prove OP's point.
Animal Crossing for life sims too. Though it leans more heavily on the social simulation side of the genre.
Eh. If it's still disconnected... like, sure, there was a great quantity of things to do in it, but because none of it really affected anything else to a meaningful extent, I find it difficult to argue it was deep.
It's kinda nice Nintendo is not up their own ass about narrative in games. I kinda agree with Miyamoto games don't really need to push story so much.
Most game stories are garbage anyways I don't get why some are so into them. I've never been wowed by a game story. Where as many books have brought out emotions I didn't even know I had..
Most game stories are garbage anyways I don't get why some are so into them. I've never been wowed by a game story. Where as many books have brought out emotions I didn't even know I had..
Red Arremer
Member
They're not saying they're making A GAME for everyone, but GAMES for everyone.
That's the point. There's a multitude of games you can choose developed and published by Nintendo, and there's games for just about everybody.
Fantastapotamus
Wrong about commas, wrong about everything
Not sure if that's supposed to be a joke?