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[Maxim726X]

Trump specifically told his followers to assault people and that he we would even pay thier legal fee's.

Sanders specifically said he does not condone violence, period. The comparison is absurd and its hyperbole like this that causes people to not want to listen to anything that clinton supporters have to say, even when they are right.

'People come [to Trump campaign events] with tremendous passion and love for their country.... When they see what's going on in this country, they have anger that’s unbelievable. They have anger. They love this country. They don’t like seeing bad trade deals. They don't like seeing higher taxes. They don't like seeing a loss of their jobs.... And I see it. There’s some anger. There’s also great love for the country. It’s a beautiful thing in many respects. But I certainly do not condone that at all.'

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...anation-for-violence-at-his-campaign-rallies/

It's literally the same thing. One sentence of condemnation, a paragraph of reasons for the violence.

Oops.

 

[Kthulhu]

Do you always argue with people over pedantic semantics, or is this just an exception?

I'm not going to reiterate what dozens of people have already said in this thread.

Just adding a sentence of condemnation, followed by 'Look at all of the horrible things that happened to us!', and then spending the entire day avoiding the question, then never mentioning it in his endless stump speech... What more do you need? Do you really not see it?

You're arguing over semantics just as much as I am, he has condemned the bad apples in the past and he did it again here: https://berniesanders.com/press-release/statement-nevada/

How would wording it slightly different change anything? Would anyone who is currently harassing people be stopped by this?

 

[legacyzero]

Do you think those explanations of why this election matters are wrong?

I said it on the previous page, but you should vote based on the sort of future you want to see for our society / the human race. Not to stick it to some sassy GAF posters. You know that.

Thats not what Im saying thought. Totally get that point, and completely agree.

But a lot of voters see this as a lesser-of-two-evils type of election. I've been trying to convince my best friend who swears he wont be voting in the election, because he labels Hilary as untrustworthy. And I have a hard time diagreeing with him. It's almost as if I have to present it to him as his duty to fight against a Trump presidency, and the least we'd get it 4-8 more years of status quo.

It's a hard sell for those that have looked into Hilary's past and her behaviors. Its questionable.

You're going to have to clarify "not when it matters."

The case was made most often the topic came-up. I think that's quite appropriate timing.

And the tone of the argument - or your own emotional response - doesn't undermine its central points.

My point stands: the case has been made repeatedly and clearly. Anyone claiming otherwise is either willfully lying or hasn't been paying attention.

Tone is everything if you want somebody to take you seriously. Otherwise, you just come off as a jerk. Not a difficult concept, really.

 

[Zornack]

Did you not read what he said? He did condem his supporters who were harassing people.

I don't recall doing jack about his supporters.

No, Sanders did not. He says he's against violence. He never mentions that his supporters and delegates are the ones threatening and harassing people. In fact in the sentence before he takes his valiant stand against violence he says that the NV democratic party lied about his supporters being violent.

 

[TS-08]

Try a paragraph.

What the hell is he supposed to do? Take away computers from his supporters?

What paragraph? There was only a sentence condemning violence and harassment generally. And it was immediately followed by a "But you know..." qualification that was irrelevant to the purposes of the statement and does nothing but undercut the genuineness of it.

 

[spekkeh]

So when is the big heel turn, where Trump confesses that all along he was a Democrat face out to tear down the GOP and Bernie a GOP face intent on bringing down the Democrats.

Because boy would I watch the shit out of it.

 

[Maxim726X]

Thats not what Im saying thought. Totally get that point, and completely agree.

But a lot of voters see this as a lesser-of-two-evils type of election. I've been trying to convince my best friend who swears he wont be voting in the election, because he labels Hilary as untrustworthy. And I have a hard time diagreeing with him. It's almost as if I have to present it to him as his duty to fight against a Trump presidency, and the least we'd get it 4-8 more years of status quo.

It's a hard sell for those that have looked into Hilary's past and her behaviors. Its questionable.

So... Are you going to respond to Hylian's and my posts, or just continue to ignore them?

 

[Blader]

You straight up don't know what you're talking about. He's not burning everything down by going hard at Hillary or the DNC. He is not threatening the very real progress that has been made and he's not helping Trump. None of that is true or even close to what's happening.

This is total fear mongering, and that attitude is the only thing actually hurting the party.

Painting Hillary and the DNC as parts of the crooked, corrupt establishment absolutely helps Trump. How does that not hurt the party? It divides Democrats at a time when Trump is slowly (but surely) unifying Republicans.

 

[Adaren]

You're arguing over semantics just as much as I am, he has condemned the bad apples in the past and he did it again here: https://berniesanders.com/press-release/statement-nevada/

How would wording it slightly different change anything? Would anyone who is currently harassing people be stopped by this?

It's all in the tone. He surrounded his "condemnation" with a dozen excuses for why it was deserved.

Every politician will say "I don't condone any sort of violence". No one will ever say otherwise. Even Trump said it in as many words. That alone isn't a statement that actually means anything. It's completely vapid.

If he wanted to sincerely condemn it, he did an unbelievably bad job of it. Even the Bernie supporters in the thread about the topic widely agreed that his condemnation was as light as possible.

 

[Generalpsyduck]

So... Are you going to respond to Hylian's and my posts, or just continue to ignore them?

Oh my god you are so bad at this dude. Your previous comments added nothing they where just fluff

 

[Cipherr]

While his statement is ludicrous in the broad brush that it paints, what I'm assuming he means is that there isn't a need to "court" Bernie supporters.

The ones that would vote for Hillary have enough information that they should already know what they're doing in November. They want a progressive Supreme Court Justice, and they don't want Trump to burn everything to the ground. There's not much for them to decide, and forum posts on a video game message board shouldn't be doing much to change their political opinions.

Those that want people to "be nice to them" or they'll turn to Trump aren't worth stressing over, because they will either vote for Trump anyway or have no intention of voting at all. The idea that the tone of a thread on NeoGaf is going to sway their political opinions isn't one that should be taken seriously.

This is where I'm at. We have talked this to death. Everyone doing the "Please be nicer to us and explaaaaaaaaaaain" may as well knock it off. We have had the discussions, we have posted the counter points, we have drawn the damned diagrams and tried to reason and gotten nowhere.

The folks remaining that are on the "Be nice and court me or I won't vote for a Liberal this fall" can frankly stuff it. They always say that after some data comes out that they can't wiggle Bernie out of with broken reasoning and hypocritical nonsense with a dash of Whataboutisms. All of a sudden when Bernie is being called on doing something everyone knows he shouldn't do, we are all big meanies who need to be nicer to your candidate or you won't vote blue.

We don't believe you, you need more people. You were never going to anyway, so take your lumps in stride man.

The goal is still the revolution. Gotta burn this mother down.

As long as Clinton doesn't win I'll deal with living with whatever power-hungry buffoon gets elected.

^^^^ At least people like this are honest about it, and not begging for people to court them as if they really ever intended on actually giving a crap.

 

[Toxi]

I guess the next question is whether he actually is bitter enough to run as a 3rd party candidate.

That would completely destroy any future political career.

 

[Meier]

How many people posting here now do you think were posting here 8 years ago?

I don't get too involved in this stuff because I find most of the serious discussion on this forum to have taken a major nosedive due to how big it's gotten, but I can safely say I was here at GAF during 2008 and in fact was able to be in Grant Park the night Obama was elected (I posted a thread about howw to get tickets to it: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=13402563). What an amazing occasion.

That was probably about the coolest night of my life next to a few relationship related evenings with my wife. Seeing how much it meant to so many people will stick with me for the rest of my life.

 

[Kthulhu]

No, Sanders did not. He says he's against violence. He never mentions that his supporters and delegates are the ones threatening and harassing people. In fact in the sentence before he takes his valiant stand against violence he says that the NV democratic party lied about his supporters being violent.

Nevada's dnc accused his campaign of violence, it isn't .

What paragraph? There was only a sentence condemning violence and harassment generally. And it was immediately followed by a "But you know..." qualification that was irrelevant to the purposes of the statement and does nothing but undercut the genuineness of it.

So he didn't write how you would so that makes him a bad person ?

 

[Maxim726X]

Oh my god you are so bad at this dude. Your previous comments added nothing they where just fluff

So... Responding to posters with quotes and proof, is fluff?

And what would this post be considered, I wonder?

 

[Adaren]

So he didn't write how you would so that makes him a bad person ?

He wrote something completely unsympathetic and even victim-blaming to a woman and her family who are getting hundreds of obscene and threatening phone calls. I don't know if he's an asshole, but his statement sure makes him seem like one.

 

[HylianTom]

Tone is everything if you want somebody to take you seriously. Otherwise, you just come off as a jerk. Not a difficult concept, really.

So feelings, basically.

Because the argument has been made in a variety of manners. Cooly. Detailed. With and without snark.

Pick your preferred flavor of tone, and the argument has been made.

"I don't like the tone" doesn't negate the fact that a solid case has been offered. I'm not going to massage your limbic system.

 

[Fenderputty]

Point 1: Hilary has shown many behaviors that scream corruption. The evidence is plain to see. Her donors, her speeches, her conflicts of interests, etc.

.

This isn't evidence. This is your confirmation bias showing.

 

[Fine Ham Abounds]

I don't see why there'd be difficulty believing this. Not to offend him or anyone else, but this is his last rodeo. He's going to go all out, he's going to be himself for good or ill, and he's doing it because he would regret it otherwise.

It's no mystery he doesn't give a shit about the Democratic party in general, so whatever bridges he's burning or rhetoric he's handing out that may hurt the chances of less muddled general election is irrelevant to him.

I don't think he's a bad person or something, he's just clearly not going to be able to live with himself without trying his damnedest. Hopefully enough of his supporters realize Hillary is wrong within established parameters rather than vote for P. T. Barnum and Morton Downey Jr.'s love child.

 

[Zornack]

Nevada's dnc accused his campaign of violence, it isn't .

What isn't? His delegates were violent and threatening. The NV state party told him that his delegates were violent and threatening. His response: No they weren't, by the way I hate violence, also this one time someone may have shot a gun into one of my campaign offices.

 

[Kthulhu]

He wrote something completely unsympathetic and even victim-blaming to a woman and her family who are getting hundreds of obscene and threatening phone calls. I don't know if he's an asshole, but his statement sure makes him seem like one.

Source?

What isn't? His delegates were violent and threatening. The NV state party tolled him that his delegates were violent and threatening. His response: No they weren't, by the way I hate violence, also this one time someone may have shot a gun into one of my campaign offices.

By and large his supporters are non violent.

 

[TS-08]

Nevada's dnc accused his campaign of violence, it isn't .



So he didn't write how you would so that makes him a bad person ?

I'm criticizing the substance, not the syntax or grammar. I was also pointing out that you are incorrect that his speaking out against the violent acts and harassment was a paragraph. You made the sentence/paragraph distinction, so it must matter.

He is giving lip service to condemning violence while broadcasting the same signals that helped create the environment in Nevada in the first place. This is more than just questionable wording, and I think that is worth criticism. Not sure what you are getting at with the "bad person" remark.

 

[Zornack]

By and large his supporters are non violent.

Same with Trump. What does that matter? When your delegates are doxxing and sending violent threats to state officials you take a stance against it.

 

[Kthulhu]

I'm criticizing the substance, not the syntax or grammar. I was also pointing out that you are incorrect that his speaking out against the violent acts and harassment was a paragraph. You made the sentence/paragraph distinction, so it must matter.

He is giving lip service to condemning violence while broadcasting the same signals that helped create the environment in Nevada in the first place. This is more than just questionable wording, and I think that is worth criticism. Not sure what you are getting at with the "bad person" remark.

I think he said all he needed to on the matter, plain and simple. Everyone is claiming it's insufficient and I disagree.

 

[RustyNails]

Crash and Bern.

 

[Adaren]

Source?

https://berniesanders.com/press-release/statement-nevada/

?

I have to go now, but there are plenty of reactions to his statement in the thread about the the Nevada Democrats.

EDIT: I found the page for you:

http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=1220341&page=11

 

[TS-08]

I think he said all he needed to on the matter, plain and simple. Everyone is claiming it's insufficient and I disagree.

Yes, I can read.

 

[JP_]

This guy gets it.

http://www.vox.com/2016/5/18/11699946/bernie-sanders-polls-winning

there aren't any really juicy quotes for me to pull but the article is short so give it a read

 

[Zornack]

I think he said all he needed to on the matter, plain and simple. Everyone is claiming it's insufficient and I disagree.

Step back and imagine you're the person receiving threats of violence against yourself and your family on your voicemail. Do you still feel that Sanders' response is appropriate?

For you, the Sanders supporter, he said everything he needed to say. But for the victims being harassed? Hardly.

 

[Timedog]

Bernie didn't become "Bernie" by compromising. He's not going to say he's anti establishment and then suddenly turn around and say "the establishment is great!". This behavior is expected of a "politician". Principles vs pragmatism.

 

[Macho Madness]

Bernie didn't become Bernie by compromising. He's not going to say he's anti establishment and then suddenly turn around and say "the establishment is great!". This behavior is expected of a "politician". Principles vs pragmatism.

The problem is thinking everyone who disagrees with you is corrupt.

 

[Omegasquash]

Step back and imagine you're the person receiving threats of violence against yourself and your family on your voicemail. Do you still feel that Sanders' response is appropriate?

For you, the Sanders supporter, he said everything he needed to say. But for the victims being harassed? Hardly.

His language was poor, and he didn't call for threats to stop, when it's a very good bet that he knows that those calls are coming, in large part (I always leave some room for 4Chan), from his supporters.

He needs to publicly tell those people to stop, and he needs to condemn them and their actions. Failing to do so suggests that he's turning a blind eye to it.

 

[Kthulhu]

Step back and imagine you're the person receiving threats of violence against yourself and your family on your voicemail. Do you still feel that Sanders' response is appropriate?

For you, the Sanders supporter, he said everything he needed to say. But for the victims being harassed? Hardly.

The people doing this probably wouldn't stop no matter what he says.

He condemned the behavior and that is enough for me like you said. I'm not being harassed and I don't know what it's like, but Sanders has no control over the actions of his supporters, words can only do so much.

I'm done debating this anyway, I obviously made my point and I'm clearly not cchanging anything. Probably gonna unsub from this thread.

 

[studyguy]

Bernie didn't become Bernie by compromising. He's not going to say he's anti establishment and then suddenly turn around and say "the establishment is great!". This behavior is expected of a "politician". Principles vs pragmatism.

What's he going to do at the end of his run when he will normally have to endorse Hillary then. That's been the running question so far. I severely doubt he's going to do a 2008 Hillary and campaign hard behind her like she did for Obama. Not when the entire running discussion has been that he's gotten hoodwinked by the supposed establishment at every turn. Still the man can't say fuck the DNC and walk off, he's also made it clear Trump should not win, that however means endorsing Hillary and the DNC.

 

[legacyzero]

This isn't evidence. This is your confirmation bias showing.

LOL.

Perfect example of what I've been talking about in this thread.

 

[Fenderputty]

Bernie didn't become Bernie by compromising. He's not going to say he's anti establishment and then suddenly turn around and say "the establishment is great!". This behavior is expected of a "politician". Principles vs pragmatism.

So then run as an independent. Or is that just low enough on the principle scale and high enough on the pragmatism scale that he didn't do that?

LOL.

Perfect example of what I've been talking about in this thread.

I would wait for you to post actual evidence, but I don't want to wait here for an eternity.

 

[Timedog]

The problem is thinking everyone who disagrees with you is corrupt.

I'm not sure exactly what this means, but the system is undeniably corrupt.

So then run as an independent. Or is that just low enough on the principle scale and high enough on the pragmatism scale that he didn't do that.



I would wait for you to post actual evidence, but I don't want to wait here for an eternity.

Fair point.

 

[Zornack]

I'm not sure exactly what this means, but the system is undeniably corrupt.

What system? Corrupt how? Very few things are undeniable.

 

[Maxim726X]

What's he going to do at the end of his run when he will normally have to endorse Hillary then. That's been the running question so far. I severely doubt he's going to do a 2008 Hillary and campaign hard behind her like she did for Obama. Not when the entire running discussion has been that he's gotten hoodwinked by the supposed establishment at every turn. Still the man can't say fuck the DNC and walk off, he's also made it clear Trump should not win, that however means endorsing Hillary and the DNC.

I don't think he will.

He has no reason to, really. He may condemn Trump and imply that Hillary is the better candidate by default, but he really has no reason to support the party and/or Hillary.

As many have pointed out, this is the end of his political career and he clearly wants to enact operation scorched earth on the way out.

LOL.

Perfect example of what I've been talking about in this thread.

I mean, you literally admitted that you aren't going to read or consider any of the evidence because of the 'tone', which is subjective and conceivably perceived.

So why should anyone engage in an honest debate with you? You've already said you won't consider the evidence.

 

[atr0cious]

LOL.

Perfect example of what I've been talking about in this thread.

So you deflect at the request for proof.

 

[B-Dubs]

I don't think he will.

He has no reason to, really. He may condemn Trump and imply that Hillary is the better candidate by default, but he really has no reason to support the party and/or Hillary.

As many have pointed out, this is the end of his political career and he clearly wants to enact operation scorched earth on the way out.

Which is funny because he's been treated with kid gloves the whole time.

 

[Intheflorsh]

How much damage do you guys think Bernie can do? How is he going to cost Hillary the election?

 

[Kthulhu]

https://berniesanders.com/press-release/statement-nevada/

?

I have to go now, but there are plenty of reactions to his statement in the thread about the the Nevada Democrats.

EDIT: I found the page for you:

http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=1220341&page=11

What you said isn't mentioned in either link.

 

[Blader]

Bernie didn't become "Bernie" by compromising. He's not going to say he's anti establishment and then suddenly turn around and say "the establishment is great!". This behavior is expected of a "politician". Principles vs pragmatism.

This is not a great argument for why he should be president.

 

[Maxim726X]

What you said isn't mentioned in either link.

Care to respond to this?:

'People come [to Trump campaign events] with tremendous passion and love for their country.... When they see what's going on in this country, they have anger that’s unbelievable. They have anger. They love this country. They don’t like seeing bad trade deals. They don't like seeing higher taxes. They don't like seeing a loss of their jobs.... And I see it. There’s some anger. There’s also great love for the country. It’s a beautiful thing in many respects. But I certainly do not condone that at all.'

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...anation-for-violence-at-his-campaign-rallies/

It's literally the same thing. One sentence of condemnation, a paragraph of reasons for the violence.

 

[Fenderputty]

So you deflect at the request for proof.

It's the perfect example. He's right about that. Just not for what he's talking about.

 

[Timedog]

What system? Corrupt how? Very few things are undeniable.

The American political system? It's not some secret. Do you think Trump is donating to campaigns just out of the kindness of his heart. Yes, it is undeniable. No, I'm not interested in semantics.

This is not a great argument for why he should be president.

It wasnt that type of argument.

 

[Zornack]

Which is funny because he's been treated with kid gloves the whole time.

Yeah, I can't imagine how he'd react if this were a real primary and his far left "let's size businesses without compensating their owners and dismantle the military and the CIA" past were brought up.

 

[SummitAve]

I don't think he will.

He has no reason to, really. He may condemn Trump and imply that Hillary is the better candidate by default, but he really has no reason to support the party and/or Hillary.

As many have pointed out, this is the end of his political career and he clearly wants to enact operation scorched earth on the way out.

This doesn't make sense though because the opportunity to continue his message, even though he has no chance of being the nominee, is still very much there. Why would he scorch the earth and give that opportunity up? He's going to have influence and sway at the convention to help get the voters wants recognized and ultimately strengthen the party.

Competition is not always party splitting it can be healthy too.

 

[jack_package_200]

Hey guys, we are fighting the establishment just like Bernie. This will get them to take us seriously