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[DrROBschiz]

Things like the delegate counts and superdelegates and so on seem anti-democratic, and they are. But the parties aren't saying "hey, pick our nominee for us" so much as they're saying "who do you think should be our nominee?" And then they'll consider that decision before accepting it. This gives them a safety valve for if some wackjob starts winning.

The GOP had a situation where their "safety valve" wasn't enough to stop Trump because the party was divided, there were too many candidates, Trump was winning by too much, they implemented short-sighted rules in the past, etc. AND they never had an willing and acceptable alternative.

In 2008 and 2016, the "safety valve" has mattered in the Democratic primaries because it's become a two person race where the superdelegates can potentially control the balance. In 2004 and 2000, it didn't matter because a single candidate obliterated the table after NH.

What some of the rabid Sanders fanatics can't seem to accept is that the superdelegates when they do vote, will not vote for Sanders for a multitude of reasons, but foremost is that it's their Party, their rules and their process. They'll take into account the Sanders surprise groundswell because it's good business, but they don't have to listen to your "votes" anymore than Microsoft has to listen to your change.org petition about Windows 10's incoherent auto color schemes.

This isnt news

But it also makes Bernie's crusade all the more important in my eyes. Because despite being essentially private entities they exert near complete control over the election process going into the general

They cant force voters to vote on party lines but we want to as a populance since these parties are so effective at propping up their candidates and giving the public a simple Left/Right decision

I suppose this will remained locked as cultural until there is an actual groundswell against how private parties are currently formed and operated.

 

[collige]

Things like the delegate counts and superdelegates and so on seem anti-democratic, and they are. But the parties aren't saying "hey, pick our nominee for us" so much as they're saying "who do you think should be our nominee?" And then they'll consider that decision before accepting it. This gives them a safety valve for if some wackjob starts winning.

The GOP had a situation where their "safety valve" wasn't enough to stop Trump because the party was divided, there were too many candidates, Trump was winning by too much, they implemented short-sighted rules in the past, etc. AND they never had an willing and acceptable alternative.

In 2008 and 2016, the "safety valve" has mattered in the Democratic primaries because it's become a two person race where the superdelegates can potentially control the balance. In 2004 and 2000, it didn't matter because a single candidate obliterated the table after NH.

What some of the rabid Sanders fanatics can't seem to accept is that the superdelegates when they do vote, will not vote for Sanders for a multitude of reasons, but foremost is that it's their Party, their rules and their process. They'll take into account the Sanders surprise groundswell because it's good business, but they don't have to listen to your "votes" anymore than Microsoft has to listen to your change.org petition about Windows 10's incoherent auto color schemes.

This is all true. The next step from this realization though would be a re-examination of the existing relationship to the party on the accounts of voters and deciding how they feel about their primary vote sorta kinda not really counting.

 

[matrixman92]

Things like the delegate counts and superdelegates and so on seem anti-democratic, and they are. But the parties aren't saying "hey, pick our nominee for us" so much as they're saying "who do you think should be our nominee?" And then they'll consider that decision before accepting it. This gives them a safety valve for if some wackjob starts winning.

What some of the rabid Sanders fanatics can't seem to accept is that the superdelegates when they do vote, will not vote for Sanders for a multitude of reasons, but foremost is that it's their Party, their rules and their process. They'll take into account the Sanders surprise groundswell because it's good business, but they don't have to listen to your "votes" anymore than Microsoft has to listen to your change.org petition about Windows 10's incoherent auto color schemes.

I think the most important thing that was brought to focus over the whole super delegate issue was the way that the media presented it. I dont remember which, but there were some states where Sanders flat out beat Hillary in the votes. And yet, she still technically won the state because the media showed that she had already gotten the super delegates(which haven't definitively voted) for said state, which put her over the amount of pledged delegates that sanders won by popular vote. Cant even imagine living in states where that happened and voting for him, it would really make me feel that my vote meant nothing. The winner still comes out the loser. Its about over for Sanders (it will still be interesting to see if his march in California will pay off with a win there), but I think its pretty clear that he was screwed over by the media and party multiple times.

 

[OriginofHysteria]

This is all true. The next step from this realization though would be a re-examination of the existing relationship to the party on the accounts of voters and deciding how they feel about their primary vote sorta kinda not really counting.

They should just go all and out imo and re-examine the Electoral College because you still have people thinking that their vote in the GE does not matter. I mean something is fundamentally wrong when you win the popular vote but not the electoral college count (I.e Bush v Gore)

 

[benjipwns]

This isnt news

It often is, and has been, to first time hardcores. This was best exemplified by not just Sanders, Clinton and Obama but also Ron Paul and Trump. All five of them have attracted new hardcores into the process they had no initial understanding of.

The McGovern and Goldwater people were absolutely crushed and Watergate cemented their hatred of the status quo. But they came to dominate both their parties and new versions of what they fought against.

Hillary ironically being both a Goldwater Girl and a McGovernite.

They should just go all and out imo and re-examine the Electoral College because you still have people thinking that their vote in the GE does not matter. I mean something is fundamentally wrong when you win the popular vote but not the electoral college count (I.e Bush v Gore)

Well, unless they're 51 separate elections instead of a national one.

Then it's working as intended.

 

[Emarv]

This is all true. The next step from this realization though would be a re-examination of the existing relationship to the party on the accounts of voters and deciding how they feel about their primary vote sorta kinda not really counting.

Couldn't the same question be asked about the electoral college? And hasn't that question been asked in every HS government class? That your vote is foremost representational.

 

[collige]

Couldn't the same question be asked about the electoral college? And hasn't that question been asked in every HS government class?

Yes and yes. I don't think I've ever heard a convincing argument about the latter, but I wanted to limit this discussion to the primaries since this is a thread about Hillary vs. Bernie.

 

[SneakersSO]

Congrats Hillary. Since my candidate is now essentially out of this process, my interest in this GE has plummeted. I won't vote for Mrs. Clinton, but I wish her luck in the GE.

 

[Miles X]

Congrats Hillary. Since my candidate is now essentially out of this process, my interest in this GE has plummeted. I won't vote for Mrs. Clinton, but I wish her luck in the GE.

Ahaha, as flippant as a reality tv show. smh.

 

[Cranster]

Congrats Hillary. Since my candidate is now essentially out of this process, my interest in this GE has plummeted. I won't vote for Mrs. Clinton, but I wish her luck in the GE.

I can't understand this logic. My favourite guy didn't win so I won't vote for the other candidate thereby increasing the chances the racist bigot in the other party wins.

 

[BarringGaffner]

Trump/Bernie 2016!

 

[JABEE]

I voted today.

 

[DrROBschiz]

I can't understand this logic. My favourite guy didn't win so I won't vote for the other candidate thereby increasing the chsnces the raciat bigot in the other party wind.

No joke

At least vote independent or something

 

[BlastProcessing]

Congrats Hillary. Since my candidate is now essentially out of this process, my interest in this GE has plummeted. I won't vote for Mrs. Clinton, but I wish her luck in the GE.

You should at least vote for all the other races in the GE. The President isn't a God King, the changes that your candidate wanted are going to come from Congress, State and local politicians. Also, please show up in the Midterms, that's where your vote will have the most effect.

 

[SirClinksAlot]

Bye Bernie. You used to be cool.

 

[DrROBschiz]

You should at least vote for all the other races in the GE. The President isn't a God King, the changes that your candidate wanted are going to come from Congress, State and local politicians. Also, please show up in the Midterms, that's where your vote will have the most effect.

This

Do some research and do your fucking part.

We need you guys. This is a democracy damnit

 

[Suikoguy]

You should at least vote for all the other races in the GE. The President isn't a God King, the changes that your candidate wanted are going to come from Congress, State and local politicians. Also, please show up in the Midterms, that's where your vote will have the most effect.

Yep, and please check this site:

www.ncsl.org/research/elections-and-campaigns/absentee-and-early-voting.aspx

It will tell you the rules for early and by mail voting for each state.
In many you can sign up to vote by mail online using a simple web form.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

Congrats Hillary. Since my candidate is now essentially out of this process, my interest in this GE has plummeted. I won't vote for Mrs. Clinton, but I wish her luck in the GE.

This is why politicians ignore young people. Too unreliable as voters. Not worth putting any effort into appealing to them.

 

[Irnbru]

You should at least vote for all the other races in the GE. The President isn't a God King, the changes that your candidate wanted are going to come from Congress, State and local politicians. Also, please show up in the Midterms, that's where your vote will have the most effect.

Honestly I think this is the worst perception Bernie had given off. That the president alone can enact these ideas and wants. They can't, they need the downticket supports and compromise and work across the aisle. Bernie's idea to get his ideas to work is simply to have people protest at the doorstep of congress and fight for their God King. It doesn't work that way in real life.

 

[benjipwns]

This

Do some research and do your fucking part.

We need you guys. This is a democracy damnit

It's not my duty to support your political paradigm.

 

[norm9]

If it isn't superdelegates, it'd be something else that ignorant to the voting process people would be complaining about.

 

[superNESjoe]

Congrats Hillary. Since my candidate is now essentially out of this process, my interest in this GE has plummeted. I won't vote for Mrs. Clinton, but I wish her luck in the GE.

If Trump wins, it'll be because of this mentality. The democrats are really split, and being split is a big part of why Trump beat all the Republicans.

 

[Calm Mind]

Wow who could've seen this coming.

I think Stevie Wonder saw this coming.

 

[DrROBschiz]

Honestly I think this is the worst perception Bernie had given off. That the president alone can enact these ideas and wants. They can't, they need the downticket supports and compromise and work across the aisle. Bernie's idea to get his ideas to work is simply to have people protest at the doorstep of congress and fight for their God King. It doesn't work that way in real life.

I didnt get that impression

I think he wanted the groundswell support of the people and draw awareness to these things

That way people engage, put pressure on local officials and push a will of the people democracy.

Idealistic sure but local and international media can have the same effect.

Its actually a shame so many politicians serve such a small section of their populance

 

[norm9]

It's not my duty to support your political paradigm.

:lol

You don't vote, you don't have the right to complain. What a fucking revolution.

 

[Captain Pants]

I can't understand this logic. My favourite guy didn't win so I won't vote for the other candidate thereby increasing the chances the racist bigot in the other party wins.

Yup. "I'm a liberal, but I don't like Hillary, so I'll take my chances with the guy who stands for everything I hate."

 

[Bear Force One]

This is why politicians ignore young people. Too unreliable as voters. Not worth putting any effort into appealing to them.

Plus it turns out many of them didn't really believe in his policies to begin with.

 

[Blader]

I didnt get that impression

I think he wanted the groundswell support of the people and draw awareness to these things

That way people engage, put pressure on local officials and push a will of the people democracy.

Idealistic sure but local and international media can have the same effect.

Its actually a shame so many politicians serve such a small section of their populance

The bulk of Bernie's downticket strategy has been "If I'm on the ballot, more people will turn out and then vote for Democrats all across the board."

Ignoring the fact that Bernie *hasn't* increased voter turnout, the lack of downballot support (which he only very recently started putting time and money into) is a huge problem and the cult of personality that springs up around his campaign means that a lot of his supporters are only in it to see Bernie himself win, and have no idea who else -- if anyone -- to vote for on the ballot. That's what leads to senators like Al Franken and Barney Frank getting painted as enemies of progressives and members of the establishment.

 

[Averon]

Better hope Dems run the table in Nov and push all they can in Hilary's first two years because it is becoming clear to me Dems aren't going to show up in 2018 mid-terms. It will be another GOP rout.

 

[Aurongel]

Congrats Hillary. Since my candidate is now essentially out of this process, my interest in this GE has plummeted. I won't vote for Mrs. Clinton, but I wish her luck in the GE.

You'd might as well vote Republican because not voting at all benefits them more than you.

If you don't vote in this election, then any further comments you make about "MY VOICE ISN'T BEING HEARD" are of no one's fault but your own. Don't be a young, liberal stereotype.

 

[avaya]

Congrats Hillary. Since my candidate is now essentially out of this process, my interest in this GE has plummeted. I won't vote for Mrs. Clinton, but I wish her luck in the GE.

I would like to think you will eventually change your mind because this election is not about any one candidate. It's about redefining the political landscape.

I dream of a day when Citizens United is repealed.
I dream of a day when the Voting Rights Act is fully restored.
I dream of a day when Fair districting rules are brought in force.
I dream of a day when Corporate Personhood is revisited.

Except, these aren't dreams. These are the very real possibility of the next 4-8yrs. This election is the opportunity to not just make a 5-4 Supreme Court. It's an opportunity to create a 6-3 young, liberal majority that will have a lasting, immeasurable impact on generations of Americans. A majority that will carry the banner for progressive principles for decades and ensure policies espoused by Sanders can actually see the light of day.

Voting for the Democratic nominee, is not a betrayal of the future Sanders talked about. It's about buying a share in a ensuring that future, because as before, it is not about any one person, it's about laying the foundation for the change you want and there is no greater foundation than a 6-3 SCOTUS.

 

[benjipwns]

You don't vote, you don't have the right to complain.

Not voting for a candidate offered either independently or with corporate sponsorship on a state ballot doesn't mean I'm not voting for off ballot options.

 

[flkraven]

Better hope Dems run the table in Nov and push all they can in Hilary's first two years because it is becoming clear to me Dems aren't going to show up in 2018 mid-terms. It will be another GOP rout.

Nah man. Bernie started a revolution!....right?

 

[And_Gignac]

The bulk of Bernie's downticket strategy has been "If I'm on the ballot, more people will turn out and then vote for Democrats all across the board."

Ignoring the fact that Bernie *hasn't* increased voter turnout, the lack of downballot support (which he only very recently started putting time and money into) is a huge problem and the cult of personality that springs up around his campaign means that a lot of his supporters are only in it to see Bernie himself win, and have no idea who else -- if anyone -- to vote for on the ballot. That's what leads to senators like Al Franken and Barney Frank getting painted as enemies of progressives and members of the establishment.

He has with younger voters, though. He is probably the most popular candidate ever with young democratic / independent voters in a couple of generations. More than Obama.

 

[The Technomancer]

He has with younger voters, though. Which will be the future of the democratic process. He is probably the most popular candidate ever with young democratic / independent voters in a couple of generations. More than Obama.

It will only matter if they also show up in November

 

[metalslimer]

He has with younger voters, though. They will be the future of the democratic process. He is probably the most popular candidate ever with young democratic / independent voters in a couple of generations. More than Obama.

Did he? I thought turnout was down across demographics. I know he captured a larger percentage of younger voters than Obama

 

[OriginofHysteria]

If Trump wins, it'll be because of this mentality. The democrats are really split, and being split is a big part of why Trump beat all the Republicans.

But you just said it, the Republicans are also split. On the other side, you also have Conservatives who are not going to vote for Trump.

 

[benjipwns]

I would like to think you will eventually change your mind because this election is not about any one candidate. It's about redefining the political landscape.

I dream of a day when Citizens United is repealed.
...
Except, these aren't dreams. These are the very real possibility of the next 4-8yrs.

The funny thing being that the restoration of the freedom of the press that case brought was all because of Hillary in the first place.

 

[Gattsu25]

So she is now the presumptive nominee.

Thanks for the thread, Macho.

I updated my BernieIs45.com domain to be more accurate.

 

[Punchy4486]

He has with younger voters, though. He is probably the most popular candidate ever with young democratic / independent voters in a couple of generations. More than Obama.

The younger voters that say they will go to Trump or just not vote because more people voted for Hillary than Bernie?

Yeah, I don't think that matters in the way you think it does.

 

[excelsiorlef]

What is Hillary's stance on this again?

Hillary Clinton, by contrast, supports the directive. Her campaign spokesperson, Xochitl Hinojosa, emails me this statement:

“Hillary Clinton applauds the Obama administration for taking actions this week to stand up for the rights of LGBT people — and particularly for the rights of transgender people — across the country. As president, she will fight to make sure all Americans can live their lives free from discrimination.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blog...emocrats-leaning-into-the-transgender-debate/

LGBT people should be protected from discrimination under the law—period. http://hrc.io/1VJABIp -H

http://www.advocate.com/election/2016/3/25/clinton-sanders-slam-north-carolinas-transphobic-law

 

[hawk2025]

Good luck with the Superdelegate courting:


https://twitter.com/ForecasterEnten/status/740216737363267584


http://elections.huffingtonpost.com/pollster/2016-general-election-trump-vs-clinton

 

[hammysaurusrex]

I wish people would chill on dog-piling others who are making heulenical posts that reflect their political world collapsing. Yeah, it's kind of obnoxious especially from those who previously had so much self-righteousness, but people should get their chance to grieve.

 

[benjipwns]

I wish people would chill on dog-piling others who are making heulenical posts that reflect their political world collapsing. Yeah, it's kind of obnoxious especially from those who previously had so much self-righteousness, but people should get their chance to grieve.

 

[Cranster]

I wish people would chill on dog-piling others who are making heulenical posts that reflect their political world collapsing. Yeah, it's kind of obnoxious especially from those who previously had so much self-righteousness, but people should get their chance to grieve.

Bernie supporters have had months to grieve already.

 

[flkraven]

He has with younger voters, though. He is probably the most popular candidate ever with young democratic / independent voters in a couple of generations. More than Obama.

I think I know the article you read. It's this Vox article.

Keep this in mind when citing those numbers:
-It only includes 25 states
-Sanders is indeed beating Clinton with young voters and has a higher total than Obama (2.4 million vs 2.2 million) however....
-They also state the margins in which the candidates were beating one another. Obama was beating Clinton 60 to 35 with young voters, and Sanders is destroying Clinton 71 to 28 with young voters.

Using those ratios (60% for Obama being 2.2 million & 71% for Sanders at 2.4 million) we can see that total young-voter turnout in the Democratic primary is actually down:

2008: 3.66 million
2016: 3.38 million

So as good as Sanders is doing with respect to Clinton, fewer young voters are actually turning out this election cycle (based on these 25 states). That's why this isn't a good metric to use for the general.

Edit: Also, that's why all these pro Bernie articles that talk numbers should be highly scrutinized. Bernie supporters are dominating the internet right now, so the best way to get clicks is to feed into their narrative. They will only show the important numbers.

 

[benicillin]

I'm a big fan of Sanders. I've seen a lot of talk of him re-assessing his campaign after tonights results. That would be good, since I think he's going to lose. It's not too late for him to do some good and end his campaign on a high note. I've long known that he would lose, I only hope that he goes down swinging against Trump.

 

[And_Gignac]

Did he? I thought turnout was down across demographics. I know he captured a larger percentage of younger voters than Obama

I would assume overall turnout is similar or a little down / up? I have had difficulties to find sources. Some big states, like New York, did have a record young turnout, though.

He has captured more raw votes, overall, than Obama did. 2.4m (before Cali votes) vs 2.2m Obama got during the whole 2008 process.

The younger voters that say they will go to Trump or just not vote because more people voted for Hillary than Bernie?

Yeah, I don't think that matters in the way you think it does.

Young Sanders voters voting from Trump!? lol
When most of them are young women and a big chunk not even white? lol

I think I know the article you read. It's this Vox article.

Keep this in mind when citing those numbers:
-It only includes 25 states
-Sanders is indeed beating Clinton with young voters and has a higher total than Obama (2.4 million vs 2.2 million) however....
-They also state the margins in which the candidates were beating one another. Obama was beating Clinton 60 to 35 with young voters, and Sanders is destroying Clinton 71 to 28 with young voters.

Using those ratios (60% for Obama being 2.2 million & 71% for Sanders at 2.4 million) we can see that total young-voter turnout in the Democratic primary is actually down:

2008: 3.66 million
2016: 3.38 million

So as good as Sanders is doing with respect to Clinton, fewer young voters are actually turning out this election cycle (based on these 25 states). That's why this isn't a good metric to use for the general.

Edit: Also, that's why all these pro Bernie articles that talk numbers should be highly scrutinized. Bernie supporters are dominating the internet right now, so the best way to get clicks is to feed into their narrative. They will only show the important numbers.

lol yes, I used that article. 2.2m is the overall number of votes Obama got during the primary. Or at least thats what the article implies.

Let me search for better receipts.

 

[Aaronrules380]

I would assume overall turnout is similar or a little down / up? I have had difficulties to find sources. Some big states, like New York, did have a record young turnout, though.

He has captured more raw votes, overall, than Obama did. 2.4m (before Cali votes) vs 2.2m Obama got during the whole 2008 process.




Young Sanders voters voting from Trump!? lol
When most of them are young women and a big chunk not even white? lol

Hilary beats Sanders handily in the nonwhite and female voting bases though

Also, look a few posts above you

 

[Armadilo]

I just want to say that you can vote for anyone that you want. One person that wants to be the President won't fix or doom America. Vote who ever you want. It's your vote and its your choice. Don't be scared of what people want you to do. Do as you please