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Mass shooting at Orlando gay nightclub [50 dead, 53 injured]
- Thread starter dc89
- Start date
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YES.
A lady was on CNN mentioning how they had an armed off duty police officer at the door.
It was brief but I may have heard they also had a detail officer on the scene outside but that part I am not so sure about.
Rabbi_Vole
Banned
So it started outside?
Hellwarden
Member
I agree to an extent, but we don't win debates by painting in broad strokes.
AnathemicOne
Banned
This is why I gave up on masking my opinion on this debate wholeheartedly. Will gun regulations be nice? Yeah it would, but then I imagine the many children with bloodied faces; I imagine young life ended prematurely; I imagine families being broken and shambled.
And I directly see the panic and fear victims experience
Bam Bam Baklava
Member
Doesn't mean you have to make it easy though.
Arrogant Bastard
Banned
We won't have gun control legislation passed in America, what we will have is SCOTUS ruling and changing the interpretation of the constitution.
Why won't it happen? Because you have two extremes, one like the poster above acting as if the 2nd amendment is some revered absolute right when it isn't. Then you have people calling for the complete ban and I assume confiscation of all weapons (this is honestly the most laughable suggestion), do these guys even think about the logistics?
Regardless, we are going to have to address this and radicalism/hatred. The second part of the equation is actually much more difficult. I cannot potentially state how tired I am of seeing this and how at times when I'm out with my wife I am slightly fearful. It sucks, we need to stop this shit.
Stop posting the text please.
Stevetopsy
Member
The worst feeling for me is when I thought about how incredibly massive and horrifying a shooting must have to be in order to finally shake the people who need to be shaken out of their state of doing nothing to try and curb this endless cycle that's become a routine we go through in life now. Is this tragic enough for them? I almost can't bear to think of when the next one happens and looking back and thinking that even after last night's massacre, nothing was done and no one budged, again.
And fuck Trump. He must feel like his dick gets bigger every time he says "Radical Islamic Terrorism". Yes, Islam is the current religion with a bunch of people taking it literally and doing vile shit, but the real problem is people believe made-up, mythological nonsense with no requirement for empirical proof or evidence at all. We need to move away from that as a species and we sure as hell can't say for them to give up their fairy tales while millions over here continue believing ones of their own that are just as looney. We need to leave religion behind and that's something Trump will never "tell it like it is", even though he most likely couldn't give half a shit about christianity or religion himself, he still needs to pretend and pander for votes. Sigh... shit feels so hopeless now. I feel terrible for all those affected by this.
And fuck Trump. He must feel like his dick gets bigger every time he says "Radical Islamic Terrorism". Yes, Islam is the current religion with a bunch of people taking it literally and doing vile shit, but the real problem is people believe made-up, mythological nonsense with no requirement for empirical proof or evidence at all. We need to move away from that as a species and we sure as hell can't say for them to give up their fairy tales while millions over here continue believing ones of their own that are just as looney. We need to leave religion behind and that's something Trump will never "tell it like it is", even though he most likely couldn't give half a shit about christianity or religion himself, he still needs to pretend and pander for votes. Sigh... shit feels so hopeless now. I feel terrible for all those affected by this.
I don't see gun owners protesting NRA headquarters, ripping up membership cards. How many gun owners have wrote into their congress or senators asking for changes? I do see gun owners carrying rifles to rallies. I do see gun owners carrying rifles to malls and shopping centers in some kind of protest against regulations and made up bans. Show me the actual push of gun owners, show me gun owners voting for politicians pushing for gun control and we will have good faith attempt. Until then I see no reason to walk on egg shells or treat a group with kid gloves that show little regards to saving human lives over their guns.
Seems like it there are also some videos from outside where you can hear a gun fight.
Gun control is not anti-liberal.
Vote and get your friends to vote. Seriously. I imagine people in this very thread making these arguments probably didn't bother to vote last midterms for whatever the reason.
timetokill
Banned
Never said it was.
Sensible gun regulation, such as firming up the background check process. Several of the mass shootings that have made the headlines in the last year were done by people who had diagnosed mental illnesses. It wasn't caught in the background check. Closing the gunshow loophole would help.
But the sad fact is that you can't 100% prevent mass shootings like this. Apparently this guy didn't have a prior criminal record or diagnosed mental issue. He was on a watch list because of his immigrant parents.
The only thing that could have prevented this was for the government to deny his civil liberty of buying a firearm. So, you have to ask yourself what you want. If you want guns to be outlawed, or want the government to prevent people from buy guns by denying them due process, then you need to amend the Constitution. If instead you want sensible gun regulation, then that's great, but know that it probably wouldn't have prevented this particular incident. To solve this, you must take on the underlying reasoning of why the person did this. And that is confronting the hyper homophobia of Islam.
smokeandmirrors
Banned
Because they do. Let's not beat around the bush. Those kinds of people do not see issue with things like Orlando or Sandy Hook. They care about their toys.
It's the same thing as "Congress sucks but my congressman/woman is fine" mentality. They are part of the problem but dont even realize that they are.
A Link to the Past
Banned
I do not think it fair to argue that the emotional reaction to this situation is not also a logical one. It is not just that this tragedy occurred, it is also that it is a tragedy among tragedies where firearm use is present.
It probably happens far more than people realize, but the NRA has an advantage over those gun owners that actually want things to change. And it's the only advantage that matters: money. Twenty thousand people writing letters against one person with twenty thousand dollars... which twenty thousand do you think Congress listens to?
Let's ignore the fact that even an outright ban might have not prevented this horrible attack. People who are radicalized enough to go into a club and murder 50 people aren't likely going to be that deterred from buying weapons on the black market.
I'm for strict regulations but you aren't going to get anywhere spewing this garbage.
Arrogant Bastard
Banned
Is it a denial of civil liberty to exponentially extend the waiting period?
I keep coming back to this with you and you have yet to answer, what would you have us do about radical Islam in America? How can we stop this from happening, cause that is what I want to do.
jim-jam bongs
Member
I honestly couldn't give half a shit about gun owners opinions on this issue tbh. People are dead. Every other situation where people are being killed because of something being readily available would result in that thing being regulated, guns are the exception to that rule.
If that's upsetting to you, cry me a fucking river. I'll be over here caring about human beings.
If that's upsetting to you, cry me a fucking river. I'll be over here caring about human beings.
Where is the NRA getting their money to do all this?
Sales outside of licensed sellers should be illegal. Every type of gun should require a 2 week background check.
I have a feeling that would congest the heck out of the system though. Second hand gun sales should go through FFL dealers only and they should be wiped away from flea markets and the like.
I enjoy collecting guns, and shooting them. The current laws are INSANELY lax in many states. I support heavy regulation of public sales.
People on mental health medication can even get guns easily...unfortunately. I've seen it in multiple situations. I don't know HOW they can still get them?!
Law abiding citizens get their guns very easily. So do the bad guys. You might should do something about the bad guys.
And are guns really cultural heritage now? Holy hell lol
A Link to the Past
Banned
Is there a figure on the deterrence? I see this thrown around, but I honestly don't see why people think it wouldn't do anything to deter them. Perhaps this would have gone through - the killer seemed passionate enough that he would have killed with or without a legal firearm - but many crimes of passion I think could have been deterred.
Using this kind of logic is dangerous. By extension, you would be able to disenfranchise African Americans from owning firearms.
https://kieranhealy.org/blog/archives/2012/07/21/assault-deaths-within-the-united-states/
timetokill
Banned
Arguing for a gun ban in reaction to this situation isn't logical, though. There are a ton of reasons why it isn't, which have been discussed throughout this thread. I totally get the emotional reaction leading to that but it's imperative that we don't let emotions lead our actions.
cr0w
Old Member
This is why I gave up on masking my opinion on this debate wholeheartedly. Will gun regulations be nice? Yeah it would, but then I imagine the many children with bloodied faces; I imagine young life ended prematurely; I imagine families being broken and shambled.
And I directly see the panic and fear victims experience
That's a valid and understandable opinion. It's not that I don't agree with an outright gun ban, it's that I don't think it's realistically possible. Alcohol was outlawed at one point as well, but people still transported and drank it.
People need to listen to each other instead of outright insulting or berating anyone that doesn't share their exact opinion. That accomplishes literally nothing.
People have the "right" to bear arms according to the Constitution, but people should also have the right to not fear for their lives in public places due to easy access to firearms. But, again, people who feel strongly about either side of this argument are almost universally unwilling to listen.
Wickerbasket
Member
I'm from the UK, there's literally nothing I can do for your country. I'm just saddened that every time another shooting happens, the same old 'nothing can done' lines are trotted out. You know what happened when a guy shot up a primary school in the UK? The country banned hand guns and increased restrictions on firearms.
It's not about if another mass shooting is going to happen in your country, it's when and there seems to be zero actions taken to prevent it. It blows my mind that your politicians and electorate can support something that takes so many lives in a way that is preventable through sensible firearm laws.
You realise that in most of the rest of the world this isn't as easy as picking up coke and skittles, right?
A Link to the Past
Banned
Using this kind of logic is dangerous. By extension, you would be able to disenfranchise African Americans from owning firearms.
https://kieranhealy.org/blog/archives/2012/07/21/assault-deaths-within-the-united-states/
A major factor in why firearms are as dangerous as they are is because of how poor the regulation is, and as such increasing regulation would contribute to a fix for the problem.
With respect to AA firearm owners, one of the big reasons why it's so high is because of a higher than average poverty rate. The rate you cited would be lowered if poverty levels improved as well.
This too - in fact, him needing to get a firearm on the black market would have made it more likely that he may have been caught.
AnathemicOne
Banned
Because this discussion should absolutely be about gun control considering we had a single-target shooting that wasn't religion-affiliated in the same fucking city 2 days ago.
everyday math
Banned
Because what does that change? We're already at war with those people. What people are angry about is a guy who was looked at twice and was able to buy a gun legally.
Using this kind of logic is dangerous. By extension, you would be able to disenfranchise African Americans from owning firearms.
https://kieranhealy.org/blog/archives/2012/07/21/assault-deaths-within-the-united-states/
Ironically enough that is the exact reason why Reagan was once for gun control. Conservatives did NOT want blacks owning guns. I imagine they still don't.
Arrogant Bastard
Banned
As it has been stated countless times, reasonable gun control can be reasonably be set in place.
How do we stop radical Islam?
What did the FBI screw up here?
Because gun control is a common sense step we can take. We can't force someone to not be radicalized.
As far as the FBI goes, I only know they interviewed the guy several times.
ShironRedshift
Member
The thing that fascinates me though is why is that clause there to begin with? Why specify a specific reasoning or use at all, when the founders clearly didn't think that was necessary for what they considered our most fundamental of rights, but felt it specifically necessary for the 2nd? Here's the wording of the first amendment:
And the Fourth:
And the Eighth Amendment really gets to the point:
Why is the wording of the 2nd so much different from them? That is, why is it not something to the effect of:
or
Seriously. Look at the text of the 2nd. Then look at the text of the other nine. The other nine simply say how things are, simply say if something's a right or not. The 2nd is the only one that specifies a specific purpose and reasoning and use of that right. The Founders clearly had no problem being very direct and right to the point if they truly saw something as being a fundamental right, as the other nine show. But yet, something was different about the 2nd, and only the 2nd.
In addition, it's just interesting that despite that only apply to the 2nd, there are any number of restrictions on the first, such as restrictions against libel, slander, false advertising, inciting violence, etc, despite the first amendment being much more clear as to the fundamental rights it bestows than the 2nd. That being the case, I just don't get how it's nonetheless the 2nd that's the one that's supposed to be as free from regulations as possible and it's such a big deal to make sure that guns have to be registered to their owners, or for them to have to be securely stored at penalty of law for failure to do so, or whatever.
I just... don't get it, how we can't even have bare minimum regulations on the thing, to do the bare minimum to make sure that this type of thing doesn't happen again and just throw our hands into the air instead as if there's nothing we can do, while being the one of the only countries to have such a problem with firearm-related violence on such a fundamental level. To just deny the link and keep insisting their's no connection and that something else must be the problem, in the only fully-developed country where mass-shootings happen every day... I just don't get it. I just on't.
I think everyone knows the guy was a terrorist. Terrorism is clearly bad so not much to discuss there.
What does the FBI have to do with it? Curious.
SolidSnakex
Member
You should watch Obama's speech about the shooting if you haven't seen it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wm5Lj8VJXR8
If you've seen his speeches on this subject before you know he's typically very fiery. But he seems tired of it all now. He's had to give this type of speech so many times during his presidency and yet there's no budging when it comes to gun laws in this country.
Steeped in a Sea of Games
Member
Oh, this is that "Now's not the time to talk about guns" argument that leads to hand waving away the problem. As if these events aren't happening on a nearly constant basis.
Bam Bam Baklava
Member
Apparently they screwed up by not detaining him indefinitely but should not have the power to stop him from buying weapons.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Because the issue of gun control is a more tenuous one, and as such is the one most discussed. No one denies that it was religiously motivated (and most people in this thread do not think that religious-based limitations should be enacted), so the discussion is obviously about something more contentious.
Chuck Norris
Banned
Yes they will just log on to blackmarket.org and have their rifles and explosives delivered to them, or they will just go down to their local cornerstore black market and buy there
maquiladora
Member
A ban won't prevent attacks but it would make them a lot less frequent. How frequent, nobody knows, but even if it only reduced mass shooting by..say 25%...how many innocent lives is that over the next 10, 20 years?
Wouldn't it be worth it to save those lives? Or are the guns worth more than the lives? That is what it boils down to.
harriet the spy
Member
It really is doable, though. People who really really want weapon will find them, except perhaps in Japan. As I said before, France has extremely strict gun control, didn't change a thing. So with the US, where there already are gazillions guns around, gun control will never prevent this kind of massacre.
Still needs strong gun control for all the other tens of thousands of murders that could be prevented, though.
What does it matter what the motive is? With stronger gun laws they have less access to guns, may even end up arrested trying to buy a black market gun in a sting operation. Or they'll have to use knives, bombs or resort to stealing guns. All of which increases the chances of them getting caught, and lowering their ability to take out as many people.
I mean, a huge portion of Reconstruction in the South was the wholesale disarmament of recently freed slaves in order to propagate racial terrorism.
Extending the waiting period isn't necessarily a denial of civil liberty. I guess I wouldn't be opposed to that being a part of gun reform. But again, would that have prevent this? These people who get radicalized aren't in a temporary fit of rage or whatever. Lets say he had to wait a month, two months. Why would this prevent him from carrying out the attack at that time? We'd be having this same conversation.
As for solving radical Islam...I personally don't have an answer. But the first steps involve talking about the problem. Too many people are hand waving away the ideas in Islam that manifest into these actions. If the extremes on either side dominate the conversation ("ban all Muslims!" and "Islam is not the issue") we'll get nowhere.
shinra-bansho
Member
How about arguing for more stringent restrictions on access to deadly weapons, because US gun laws are just stupid. They were stupid before this heinous act, they remain stupid now.
Doesn't Australia's gun legislation pretty much prove this wrong? Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't gun violence decrease significantly after they instituted programs to get legal guns off the streets?
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