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[DOWN]

Dude, his friend from ten years ago said Omar had come out to him as gay.

Again, nobody actually caught this guy do anything gay. He could have wanted to kill that 'friend' for all we know. And the way that the NY Daily quote is worded, the friend says he was asked out. He didn't say The shooter specifically came out. Super possible he was gay and would be super unsurprising with what we know, but nothing takes this from stake outs and interest in killing gays to him having been gay yet.

 

[Diffense]

You mean, we ought to know.

The 20th Century had a couple murderous (to a degree I don't think we can still yet appreciate) ideologies that were inimical toward religion.

All of them I can think of have the same totalitarian elements as Abrahamic religions. Of course the competing totalitarian ideologies would be inimical to a theocratic order that also demanded unquestioned devotion. Clearly both can't co-exist in the same place with equal intensity.

Modern democracies co-exist with Abrahamic religions only with the understanding that they will not try to obtain political power. Yet they are always champing at the bit to do so...both the Christian wrong and the Shariah fanatics.

(I often leave out Judaism. While it shares elements with the other faiths, it is characterized by greater insularity and is therefore less inclined to impose itself on others. The other two are among the world's largest religions largely due to the fact that their expansive ideologies - an insistence that they apply even to unbelievers and a mandate to convert - made them superb handmaidens to imperialism)

 

[dave is ok]

If I was a muslim in the US and labeling this event a hate crime and not terrorism meant a few less people being scared of Muslims in the US and taking actions like this against me, I'd spend a minute or two arguing over the labeling too if I could.

I don't see how playing language wars helps anyone. There will always be idiots who dislike/distrust certain groups based on nothing at all. To those people, attempting to hide the facts of situations only reaffirms their reasons for distrust.

 

[DOWN]

If I was a muslim in the US and labeling this event a hate crime and not terrorism meant a few less people being scared of Muslims in the US and taking actions like this against me, I'd spend a minute or two arguing over the labeling too if I could.

Terrorism and hate crime are not mutually exclusive terms.

 

[Gattsu25]

This is so crazy.

So like is the thing now that he was probably way inside the closet? Like I don't understand why this would be the reaction. Self-hate?

Self hate is a real thing especially when you are part of a society that looks down on or is outright hateful to your demographic.

 

[KingWool]

Wow this asshole was shooting people on the ground just to make sure they were dead.

fuck.

 

[Head of Vengarl]

I was camping for the last 4 days so I just found out about this when I came into cell service.

RIP to those poor souls. Horrible. I was speechless when I heard the death toll.

 

[Kreed]

I don't see how playing language wars helps anyone. There will always be idiots who dislike/distrust certain groups based on nothing at all. To those people, attempting to hide the facts of situations only reaffirms their reasons for distrust.

It doesn't help in the long run to play this game, but when one label means you have politicians like Trump calling for bans on people and motivating idiots, and the other label means gun control debates, you can see why these "language wars" happen and why it's not just about a political points to some people. Example, shortly after the shooting, you had a representative from one of the Orlando Muslim associations speaking out at the police press conference telling people not to attack Muslims/it's not related to "real Islam". It really shouldn't be necessary for these individuals to do this at a police press conference, but unfortunately there are a lot of idiots now in regards to Islam.

Terrorism and hate crime are not mutually exclusive terms.

In this situation they definitely aren't. Just following dave is ok's narrative here and the NPR articles/news sources he's referencing.

 

[Adaren]

I hope that the killer's sexuality doesn't distract from the gravity of this massacre. I loathe the idea of something so tragic being discussed in the mainstream as if it were a tabloid story.

 

[sonicmj1]

If he was a self loathing gay guy and that was the motivation, why pledge allegiance to ISIS?

Because of how they treat gay people? He hooked onto the thing that took him as far away from what he was?

To stir shit, and perhaps lead speculation about his motivations away from his own sexual orientation.

When I was serving on a Bronx grand jury, I saw a case where some people broke into the offices of a Salvation Army to steal stuff. But before they went in, they spray-painted 'ISIS' on a wall outside. They weren't even Muslim; it was just to create confusion.

It didn't do them a lot of good when their faces were caught on the security cameras inside.

 

[phisheep]

So like is the thing now that he was probably way inside the closet? Like I don't understand why this would be the reaction. Self-hate?

Cognitive dissonance is a powerful thing. If things had been even slightly different he might have shot up his mosque or his family instead. It need not even have involved hate. Maybe he killed what he most wanted - people do the strangest things under pressure.

 

[Cappa]

Again, nobody actually caught this guy do anything gay. He could have wanted to kill that 'friend' for all we know. And the way that the NY Daily quote is worded, the friend says he was asked out. He didn't say The shooter specifically came out. Super possible he was gay and would be super unsurprising with what we know, but nothing takes this from stake outs and interest in killing gays to him having been gay yet.

Lol stop

 

[mantidor]

Again, nobody actually caught this guy do anything gay. He could have wanted to kill that 'friend' for all we know. And the way that the NY Daily quote is worded, the friend says he was asked out. He didn't say The shooter specifically came out. Super possible he was gay and would be super unsurprising with what we know, but nothing takes this from stake outs and interest in killing gays to him having been gay yet.

This means nothing, you don't have to do anything gay to be gay. He clearly did not identify as gay, but having a repressed sexuality seems a very likely scenario.

The shooting is rooted in homophobia either way anyway.

 

[j_k_redtail]

All of them I can think of have the same totalitarian elements as Abrahamic religions. Of course the competing totalitarian ideologies would be inimical to a theocratic order that also demanded unquestioned devotion. Clearly both can't co-exist in the same place with equal intensity.

Modern democracies co-exist with Abrahamic religions only with the understanding that they will not try to obtain political power. Yet they are always champing at the bit to do so...both the Christian wrong and the Shariah fanatics.

I think it's a real stretch to say that totalitarian regimes persecute religious members of society because they fear a religious takeover. After all, didn't many of those same regimes also imprison/kill gay people, too?

 

[Betty]

This is so crazy.

So like is the thing now that he was probably way inside the closet? Like I don't understand why this would be the reaction. Self-hate?

Self hate, shame brought on by society, his religion, his father.

Or maybe he ultimately hated the fact so many men could be open about their sexuality while he remained confused.

 

[Ray Wonder]

Lol stop

Why? It's not far fetched in the least. Just because there's a possibility that he was gay, doesn't mean that everyone should instantly conclude that he was and tell everyone that even mentions that he might have other motivations to ask a gay person out (considering his actions against gay people) to "Lol stop"

As if he's obviously and factually proven to have been gay.

 

[Laevateinn]

I'm supposed to go to a concert at a mid sized venue in Miami tomorrow, kinda have mixed feelings about this :/

You'll be fine. Don't let things like this prevent you from living your life.

 

[Betty]

Why? It's not far fetched in the least. Just because there's a possibility that he was gay, doesn't mean that everyone should instantly conclude that he was and tell everyone that even mentions that he might have other motivations to ask a gay person out (considering his actions against gay people) to "Lol stop"

As if he's obviously and factually proven to have been gay.

There's also enough evidence to suggest he was most likely gay, so arguing so hard against that possibility feels pointless when the investigation is still so early.

 

[beast786]

My question to gaffers .

You have an authoritarian parent who has fundamental religious believe and openly support taliban ( father YouTube channel) and puts down homosexuality as God sin

You have a son who is born gay. Lives in west where homosexuality is accepted and openly practice

His faith in authoritarian religion that God made it a disgusting sin



How in the world can that man life coexist with all the above?

 

[Diffense]

I think it's a real stretch to say that totalitarian regimes persecute religious members of society because they fear a religious takeover. After all, didn't many of those same regimes also imprison/kill gay people, too?

There is no stretch there. It is completely logical. The people can't serve two masters who want their complete devotion. The ideologies are going to duke it out...no way around it. Even though Jehovah's Witnesses were a small group their intransigence greatly irked the Nazis and many were sent to the concentration camps. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Jehovah's_Witnesses_in_Nazi_Germany

In a (proper) democracy the government is not totalitarian so it is willing to leave space for religious observance provided that this does not become a threat to the smooth running of the state. Not sure how the fact that totalitarian regimes may have persecuted gay people has any bearing on this point.

 

[Ray Wonder]

There's also enough evidence to suggest he was most likely gay, so arguing so hard against that possibility feels pointless when the investigation is still so early.

Yeah, but the way it has instantly flipped on here has turned him from a radical Islamic terrorist that pledged allegiance to ISIS before committing his crimes to a troubled in closet gay person that couldn't deal with his sexuality.

I'm not giving the benefit of doubt to a person that just murdered 50 innocent people. It will require more evidence from more than a person that said he asked him out 10 years ago.

 

[norinrad]

Self hate, shame brought on by society, his religion, his father.

Or maybe he ultimately hated the fact so many men could be open about their sexuality while he remained confused.

This is what i thought as well. He saw those people as being free, something he could never be due to religious constraints.

 

[Ray Wonder]

I refuse to believe this guy was a "victim of society", and deserves even an ounce of my pity. Fuck him.

 

[Poltergust]

Yeah, but the way it has instantly flipped on here has turned him from a radical Islamic terrorist that pledged allegiance to ISIS before committing his crimes to a troubled in closet gay person that couldn't deal with his sexuality.

I thought a lot of people believed from the beginning that the guy was a deluded person who acted on his own, using ISIS as an excuse to "justify" his actions.

 

[Hex]

If he was a self loathing gay guy and that was the motivation, why pledge allegiance to ISIS?

Because of how they treat gay people? He hooked onto the thing that took him as far away from what he was?

He would pledge to ISIS for a couple of reasons.
A) it looks like it was where his family leaned anyway
B) If he is closeted, it would put the attention on that and not that he was a self hating shit bag.
I would imagine there is not much in the afterlife prospects for a self hating closeted gay shit bag in the whole Islamic lore thing.

 

[Omegasquash]

I refuse to believe this guy was a "victim of society", and deserves even an ounce of my pity. Fuck him.

When you murder people, pity tends to be the first thing to go.

 

[Henkka]

Yeah, but the way it has instantly flipped on here has turned him from a radical Islamic terrorist that pledged allegiance to ISIS before committing his crimes to a troubled in closet gay person that couldn't deal with his sexuality.

Those aren't mutually exclusive, though.

 

[beast786]

I refuse to believe this guy was a "victim of society", and deserves even an ounce of my pity. Fuck him.

No pity. But why not try to understand how society can effect individual .

Especially if you believe in determinist as in no free will.

 

[Corronchilejano]

I refuse to believe this guy was a "victim of society", and deserves even an ounce of my pity. Fuck him.

I had a Bible quote on the subject but would probably be laughed out of the thread, so instead:

You cannot hope to defeat your enemy without understanding him. Learning the details around this person's life helps us understand how he was radicalized.

 

[MIMIC]

So MSNBC is citing "sources" that says that the wife tried to talk him out of the attack.

 

[TheOfficeMut]

So MSNBC is citing "sources" that says that the wife tried to talk him out of the attack.

As in he told her he was headed to the nightclub and therefore she knew, but didn't alert the police?

 

[onepiecefan]

I hope that the killer's sexuality doesn't distract from the gravity of this massacre. I loathe the idea of something so tragic being discussed in the mainstream as if it were a tabloid story.

It won't, but the revealation that he himself visited the club on previous occasions and used gay dating apps should at least shift the focus to the tragedy itself, rather than be used to push an anti-islamic sentiment, as has generally been the case thus far unfortunately.

 

[Hex]

I had a Bible quote on the subject but would probably be laughed out of the thread, so instead:

You cannot hope to defeat your enemy without understanding him. Learning the details around this person's life helps us understand how he was radicalized.

But everything I have been reading leads away from "Radicalized".
It is all smoke and mirrors.
He was non practicing, and non religious.
People are latching onto the Isis call, which is exactly what he knew would happen and it is a problem.
In fact, in doing that he managed to bring more hate toward Islam which in the long run may be who he hated the most for making him so mixed up.

 

[Dubbedinenglish]

He would pledge to ISIS for a couple of reasons.
A) it looks like it was where his family leaned anyway
B) If he is closeted, it would put the attention on that and not that he was a self hating shit bag.
I would imagine there is not much in the afterlife prospects for a self hating closeted gay shit bag in the whole Islamic lore thing.

A) From his father it seems like he some crazy brand of Pashtun nationalist referencing the border region with Pakistan and claiming to be president in exile of that region.

B) He also pledged to Al-Qaeda and Hezbollah on the same call, 3 groups who are shooting at each other presently. His grip on terror groups seems to topical at best.

 

[Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew]

My question to gaffers .

You have an authoritarian parent who has fundamental religious believe and openly support taliban ( father YouTube channel) and puts down homosexuality as God sin

You have a son who is born gay. Lives in west where homosexuality is accepted and openly practice

His faith in authoritarian religion that God made it a disgusting sin

How in the world can that man life coexist with all the above?

Something I can say confidently is that I've yet to see (personally) a Muslim-born person openly accepting his/her homosexuality without any backlash, even if he decides to be an Atheist. They rather be forever closet homosexuals than strike a backlash.

 

[Future]

Yeah, but the way it has instantly flipped on here has turned him from a radical Islamic terrorist that pledged allegiance to ISIS before committing his crimes to a troubled in closet gay person that couldn't deal with his sexuality.

I'm not giving the benefit of doubt to a person that just murdered 50 innocent people. It will require more evidence from more than a person that said he asked him out 10 years ago.

Wait.... Was he a radical Islamic terrorist?

 

[Hex]

A) From his father it seems like he some crazy brand of Pashtun nationalist referencing the border region with Pakistan and claiming to be president in exile of that region.

B) He also pledged to Al-Qaeda and Hezbollah on the same call, 3 groups who are shooting at each other presently. His grip on terror groups seems to topical at best.

Exactly this.

 

[Saint Gregory]

A) From his father it seems like he some crazy brand of Pashtun nationalist referencing the border region with Pakistan and claiming to be president in exile of that region.

B) He also pledged to Al-Qaeda and Hezbollah on the same call, 3 groups who are shooting at each other presently. His grip on terror groups seems to topical at best.

I'm so confused. Why has the media only been reporting the fact that he pledged allegiance to ISIS when this information suggests that he was full of shit?

 

[Neo C.]

Already posted? Samantha Bee's take: Again? Again.

 

[Oddduck]

So MSNBC is citing "sources" that says that the wife tried to talk him out of the attack.

The more I hear about his wife, the more I think she should be arrested.

 

[Poltergust]

I'm so confused. Why has the media only been reporting the fact that he pledged allegiance to ISIS when this information suggests that he was full of shit?

Is this a rhetorical question?

 

[m_shortpants]

I'm so confused. Why has the media only been reporting the fact that he pledged allegiance to ISIS when this information suggests that he was full of shit?

And the worst part is that those stories have already been run. The entire world knows this guy as a radical Islamist terrorist and part of ISIS when it seems the truth is different.

But, the damage has been done.

 

[Ray Wonder]

I thought a lot of people believed from the beginning that the guy was a deluded person who acted on his own, using ISIS as an excuse to "justify" his actions.

They find people already here, and use them to push their fucked up ideals. I don't think that he's Islamic and pledged allegiance to ISIS before doing this was a coincidence.

When you murder people, pity tends to be the first thing to go.

It just seems that we're playing down aspects that make him more of a villain now and telling people "Lol Stop" when they try and reiterate that these new things may be completely false.

And "Lol stop" doesn't have to be verbatim. There are others here basically saying the same thing in more words.

No pity. But why not try to understand how society can effect individual .

That's fine, but when the reiteration that it might have nothing to do with being gay is met with "Lol stop" than it bothers me. Because it's still 100% possible that he was just a terrorist acting under ISIS, just surveying his victims.

I had a Bible quote on the subject but would probably be laughed out of the thread, so instead:

You cannot hope to defeat your enemy without understanding him. Learning the details around this person's life helps us understand how he was radicalized.

I'm not saying it's not possible, I'm saying the narrative on here flipped quickly without substantial evidence. I would like to understand why he did it. Especially if it was for ISIS.

 

[deadlast]

I'm so confused. Why has the media only been reporting the fact that he pledged allegiance to ISIS when this information suggests that he was full of shit?

NPR has reported correctly.

 

[Poltergust]

They find people already here, and use them to push their fucked up ideals. I don't think that he's Islamic and pledged allegiance to ISIS before doing this was a coincidence.

Er, yes, people who swear allegiance to ISIS do tend to be Islamic, since it's an Islamic terrorist organization. I don't see how that relates to ISIS actually contacting this guy, though. I actually doubt he ever was contacted (especially since he pledged allegiance to several terrorist groups at once), but it's best to wait for the investigation to proceed.

 

[MIMIC]

Wait.... Was he a radical Islamic terrorist?

Not in the sense that we're used to, at least. He was very much interested in extremism, according to the FBI. But part of a cell, receiving direction from other groups, etc....doesn't seem like that was the case. FBI called him "homegrown."

That's probably why the FBI closed his case. They saw that he was interested in terrorist organizations that hated each other. And typically, most terrorists are focused on supporting one group....not all of them (especially if they're bitter enemies). They probably saw that and concluded that he isn't an actual threat.

 

[smokeymicpot]

And the worst part is that those stories have already been run. The entire world knows this guy as a radical Islamist terrorist and part of ISIS when it seems the truth is different.

But, the damage has been done.

Exactly anything they say now it will turn into Obama's fault. Fucking hate this shit. Most heard the words ISIS and officially think he was their training with them. Yet he never left his state.

 

[Sax1031]

Exactly anything they say now it will turn into Obama's fault. Fucking hate this shit. Most heard the words ISIS and officially think he was their training with them. Yet he never left his state.

he went to Saudi Arabia and the UAE about 4 years ago.

not saying that is proof he received training or anything. but he did, fairly recently, travel overseas.

 

[Ray Wonder]

Er, yes, people who swear allegiance to ISIS do tend to be Islamic, since it's an Islamic terrorist organization. I don't see how that relates to ISIS actually contacting this guy, though. I actually doubt he ever was contacted (especially since he pledged allegiance to several terrorist groups at once), but it's best to wait for the investigation to proceed.

Yeah, I agree that it may be unlikely that he was contacted by them, and acted out on his own under the name. The FBI, that ran his search history, seemed fairly convinced he was radicalized.

 

[Omegasquash]

It just seems that we're playing down aspects that make him more of a villain now and telling people "Lol Stop" when they try and reiterate that these new things may be completely false.

Right. I think it's important that he stays framed as what he is...a sick fuck that slaughtered 49 people and wounded more. We're speculating with some evidence on the "why", and while the motivation is a key to understanding, it's important to keep the results at the forefront.

People died because this man murdered them all.

My political opinions are known, but I refuse to budge even an iota on him being branded as a twisted, sick bastard.