Mass shooting at Orlando gay nightclub [50 dead, 53 injured]

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I refuse to believe this guy was a "victim of society", and deserves even an ounce of my pity. Fuck him.

No one's asking you to feel bad for him. And you shouldn't, there are a lot of self-hating homosexuals that don't go as far as kill others, but it's important to know all the elements that led to this.

If him being a closet homosexual (or bisexual) is true, then that only serves to demonstrate how dangerous it is to demonize and marginalize others because of their sexual orientation. And that is something that very huge swaths of America is guilty of.
 
Not in the sense that we're used to, at least. He was very much interested in extremism, according to the FBI. But part of a cell, receiving direction from other groups, etc....doesn't seem like that was the case. FBI called him "homegrown."

That's probably why the FBI closed his case. They saw that he was interested in terrorist organizations that hated each other. And typically, most terrorists are focused on supporting one group....not all of them (especially if they're bitter enemies). They probably saw that and concluded that he isn't an actual threat.
So, he was going to shoot up the place no matter what... ?
 
Right. I think it's important that he stays framed as what he is...a sick fuck that slaughtered 49 people and wounded more. We're speculating with some evidence on the "why", and while the motivation is a key to understanding, it's important to keep the results at the forefront.

People died because this man murdered them all.

My political opinions are known, but I refuse to budge even an iota on him being branded as a twisted, sick bastard.

Of course. Regardless of his motivations, he still killed dozens of people. Nothing can ever justify that.

I'm actually not completely disconnected from this tragedy. My cousin has a friend who was shot and is now hospitalized (I don't know her condition right now).

And to make it worse, that friend's boyfriend died there...
 
he went to Saudi Arabia and the UAE about 4 years ago.

not saying that is proof he received training or anything. but he did, fairly recently, travel overseas.

Every Muslim has to go to Saudi Arabia to complete the Hajj in their lifetime, it's a mandatory religious duty. If we're saying visits to Saudi Arabia mean you need to be watched that's saying the same as 'every adult Muslim needs to be watched'.

Also in terms of radicalization, without going into too much detail Saudi Arabia is generally not wher people go to be radicalized. It used to be Pakistan, but nowadays that focus has shifted to Syria / Iraq etc. Saudi Arabia's monarchy has an incredibly tight grip on extremists in their own borders nowadays to prevent them getting out of hand and threatening the monarchy. It's not the place you go to be radicalised.
 
No one's asking you to feel bad for him. And you shouldn't, there are a lot of self-hating homosexuals that don't go as far as kill others, but it's important to know all the elements that led to this.

If him being a closet homosexual (or bisexual) is true, then that only serves to demonstrate how dangerous it is to demonize and marginalize others because of their sexual orientation. And that is something that very huge swaths of America is guilty of.

Yeah, I hope no one takes away from the fact that he killed 50 people. However, knowing true cause of someone's actions is always an interesting topic and can help us educate the others on the harm of such causes.

Every Muslim has to go to Saudi Arabia to complete the Hajj in their lifetime, it's a mandatory religious duty. If we're saying visits to Saudi Arabia mean you need to be watched that's saying the same as 'every adult Muslim needs to be watched'.

Also in terms of radicalization, without going into too much detail Saudi Arabia is generally not wher people go to be radicalized. It used to be Pakistan, but nowadays that focus has shifted to Syria / Iraq etc. Saudi Arabia's monarchy has an incredibly tight grip on extremists in their own borders nowadays to prevent them getting out of hand and threatening the monarchy. It's not the place you go to be radicalised.

Yeah, and UAE has no training camps that I know of. It's a land of rich intending to keep it rich. You'll find drugs but no guns.
 
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/or...w&hootPostID=1631d0b4632c0a40025001e8aec55bcf


The Orlando gunman's wife has told federal agents she tried to talk her husband out of carrying out the attack, NBC News has learned.

Omar Mateen's current wife, Noor, told the FBI she was with him when he bought ammunition and a holster, several officials familiar with the case said. She told the FBI that she once drove him to the gay nightclub, Pulse, because he wanted to scope it out.

Mateen opened fire at Pulse early Sunday, leaving 49 dead and 53 injured.

Authorities are considering filing criminal charges against Noor for failing to tell them what she knew before the brutal attack, law enforcement officials say, but no decision has been made.

Jesus.
 
Right. I think it's important that he stays framed as what he is...a sick fuck that slaughtered 49 people and wounded more. We're speculating with some evidence on the "why", and while the motivation is a key to understanding, it's important to keep the results at the forefront.

People died because this man murdered them all.

My political opinions are known, but I refuse to budge even an iota on him being branded as a twisted, sick bastard.

No one's asking you to feel bad for him. And you shouldn't, there are a lot of self-hating homosexuals that don't go as far as kill others, but it's important to know all the elements that led to this.

If him being a closet homosexual (or bisexual) is true, then that only serves to demonstrate how dangerous it is to demonize and marginalize others because of their sexual orientation. And that is something that very huge swaths of America is guilty of.

Yes, I agree, finding out if he was is important. What's also important is not discounting that he may have been motivated by radical Islamic ideas. Which is the point I was trying to make when I posted that. Because people are very quickly dismissing that he's anything other than a crazy person who had trouble with his conflict between religion and sexuality.
 
There is no stretch there. It is completely logical. The people can't serve two masters who want their complete devotion. The ideologies are going to duke it out...no way around it. Even though Jehovah's Witnesses were a small group their intransigence greatly irked the Nazis and many were sent to the concentration camps. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Jehovah's_Witnesses_in_Nazi_Germany

In a (proper) democracy the government is not totalitarian so it is willing to leave space for religious observance provided that this does not become a threat to the smooth running of the state. Not sure how the fact that totalitarian regimes may have persecuted gay people has any bearing on this point.
I'm saying that a group (religious or otherwise) doesn't have to be particularly totalitarian in order to earn the ire of a totalitarian regime. I am referring back to bonesmccoy's point:

The 20th Century had a couple murderous (to a degree I don't think we can still yet appreciate) ideologies that were inimical toward religion.
You've said that two competing totalitarian ideologies will lead to conflict. That is a fair point. But religious groups can be (and have been) just as easily targeted for xenophobic persecution as anyone else. That cannot always be ascribed to a confict between two totalitarian ideologies.

In other words, when it comes to totalitarianism and ideology, it doesn't really take two to tango. That's why I mentioned persecution of gay people. I'd also count Jewish people in this, though I see they were excluded in your original post. They weren't persecuted because of competing totalitarian ideologies; they were persecuted because the Nazis were totalitarian and they were Jewish (or gay). The conflict doesn't have to arise due to some kind of ideological competition.

edit: Coming back to this now that I'm back at my desk -

bonesmccoy claimed that religious persecution was a feature of several regimes throughout the last century. Your response that this persecution arose from a conflict between two competing totalitarian ideologies: that of the faith, and that of the state. My point is that that statement isn't really true, and is actually more than a little unfair: People were persecuted on mere suspicion of adherence to a particular religion, or association with such individuals, when it served the aims of the State.

Christians in particular lionize martyrs for "keeping the faith" under pressure and refusing to recant, and depending on your definition of “totalitarian” you could describe that as a totalitarian impulse. But religious people have also been persecuted simply because they held beliefs that violated a particular state policy, and they have been persecuted because they held beliefs at all. For example: the Soviets were happy to co-opt religious fervor when need be – particularly during the Operation Barbarossa. But at other times, Christians were thrown in prison for leading churches in their homes, due to violating policies designed to eliminate religion from public and private life. Was that persecution due to a “conflict” between the totalitarian aspects of their faith and the wider community? Or is it simply the same xenophobic, paranoid persecution which happens to be a consistent feature of life in a totalitarian state? I would argue that it's the firmly latter.

So yes: I still maintain that it is a stretch to ascribe persecution of Abrahamic religious groups solely to a struggle between competing totalitarian ideologies. It comes off as a basic attempt to blame the most illiberal parts of religious belief for its marginalization in totalitarian regimes.
 
Funny you say that considering Egypt is actually 10% Christian.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/eg.html

Well yeah, but anyone with some knowledge of the Middle East and it's know it's history Egyptian Coptic Christians of Catholic and Orthodox faith are one of the first churches of Christianity started IIRC almost 50 years after the death of Christ.

They make up around 10% of the population like you said, and one of my best friends growing up is Egyptian Coptic Christian. They've been persecuted and essentially second class citizens since Salafi Sunnism has destroyed the country.

Not sure the point you're trying to make when it comes to this chart:

2013-Homosexuality-05.png

I'm sure if you poll Christian minorities in Muslim majority countries like Chaldean Christians or Albanian Catholics you'll find numbers similar or lower.

But I doubt you'll hear Priests/Pastors calling for throwing LGBT people off of buildings like this prominent Iman in Pakistan who follows this code to use those peoples as examples based on Sharia Text from the Quran.
 
It won't, but the revealation that he himself visited the club on previous occasions and used gay dating apps should at least shift the focus to the tragedy itself, rather than be used to push an anti-islamic sentiment, as has generally been the case thus far unfortunately.
Agreed, if more people know he was a closet gay who practiced Christianity, perhaps it will lead away from Islamaphobia.
I doubt it but I can hope.
 
Yes, I agree, finding out if he was is important. What's also important is not discounting that he may have been motivated by radical Islamic ideas. Which is the point I was trying to make when I posted that. Because people are very quickly dismissing that he's anything other than a crazy person who had trouble with his conflict between religion and sexuality.

That makes sense. He could have been exposed to a degree and radicalized by that exposure. I think our opinions of him remain the same regardless, though I also feel that too much discussion on filth like him takes away from the tragedy...there are lots of dead people that shouldn't be dead.

Let's figure out how to prevent these things from happening as much as they do. Let's stop the bleeding, and try to fix the root of the problem too.
 
I'm assuming he abused his second wife like he did his first. That doesn't excuse her not contacting authorities after he left home, but domestic abuse can really fuck with someone's sense of rationale.
 
I'm so confused. Why has the media only been reporting the fact that he pledged allegiance to ISIS when this information suggests that he was full of shit?
Have to dovetail ISIS into everything and exploit it at every opportunity if you expect people to support a 30 year fight (i.e. perpetual war) against them.

I find it kinda weird that he would take time out from his shooting spree to call authorities and pledge allegiance to ISIS.
 
In another thread I said, he probably isn't really gay, just pretending. Wanted to meet gay people and kill them. And probably visited the club several times to get a lay of the land for when he acts.

I don't buy he is gay.
He was said to be a regular for at least 3 years though, that doesn't sound like plotting
 
Does it matter what he says if he is going to do nothing, just like in every previous mass shooting.
Unless you want him to take executive action which would spell the end for the Democratic Party. This is the best you're gonna get. He made the other side look real dumb.
Democratic Party has put forth many proposals against guns...guess who votes them down?
 
Unless you want him to take executive action which would spell the end for the Democratic Party. This is the best you're gonna get. He made the other side look real dumb.

That sure is going to prevent more mass shootings. Making the other side look dumb. That helps.

Our thoughts and prayers.
 
That sure is going to prevent more mass shootings. Making the other side look dumb. That helps.

Our thoughts and prayers.
Well they are. They care more about guns then their own people's lives. Cause the NRA lines their pockets.
After Sandy Hook people tried to get a law thought for better background checks etc. The parents lobbied this hard. Republicans and a couple democrats voted it down. One man isn't responsible, the whole of the govement is.
 
So basically like I said earlier, he's one of those guys that shows up at services but sits in the way back and naps.

ie, 70% of america.

No that is not what she said

"He was quiet and sat in the corner at the mosque" being social quite doesn't mean sleeping and not caring

From earlier report:

"Daniel Gilroy, who worked alongside Mateen for about a year as a security guard for a gated community, said he brought a prayer rug and skullcap to work and prayed on his knees during his shifts."

Obviously to her he wasn't religious. He was gay
 
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