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[EdibleKnife]

Assuming anti terrorism is at its limits (I disagree but let's go with it), there's still the issue of addressing intolerance against homosexuality in certain religions. Obama is not stopped there by anything, as a world leader he has channels to religious leaders he can try to convince to try to moderate this intolerance.

There are way more things possible to do than just go "Congress is against me, cannot do shit, FBI is at its limits, cannot do shit".

Anti-terrorism is manned by other human beings. Just like the justice system, guilty people get away and innocent people get caught.

Obama also isn't god. He can talk to as many rabbis, ministers, clergy men and Muslim leaders as he wants and has. That won't change their belief system and even if he could convince Muslim leaders to strike out all the homophobic passages from the Quran, that won't influence a radical group like IS nor will it end homophobia in general, from the innocuous to the violent. Kim Davis refusing to issue marriage licenses after same sex marriage legalization is just a microcosm of religious fundamentalism in a nutshell. Obama isn't gonna make a dent in it.

 

[heliosRAzi]

Don't you understand? Obama should have created precrime from Minority Report to stop all these crimes before they happen!

I can't wait to see Minority Report 2 starring Obama and Peter Stormare

Assuming anti terrorism is at its limits (I disagree but let's go with it), there's still the issue of addressing intolerance against homosexuality in certain religions. Obama is not stopped there by anything, as a world leader he has channels to religious leaders he can try to convince to try to moderate this intolerance.

He does have those channels and I imagine he uses those channels to suggest to them how to do things, but, again, he can't do much. He isn't president over those countries.

And certainly more things to do than just do a speech to answer Trump's stupid tirade of the day.

You keep trying to downplay Trump as if he doesn't have this huge following. Trump is the Republican nominee and has a chance of winning the presidency this November. A lot of people believe that Trump "tells it like it is" when it comes to stuff like Muslims and terrorism. Obama's speech was a message to the public that we are not and will not go to war against a religion. We will value the freedom of religion.

 

[Rentahamster]

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/or...w&hootPostID=1631d0b4632c0a40025001e8aec55bcf






Jesus.

Good grief. Is she supposed to be radicalized too? That's not a good sign for being able to police one's own community.

 

[FyreWulff]

It's worth noting that

* xXPlayerXx has switched alliances to Red Team
* xXPlayerXx has switched alliances to Blue Team
* xXPlayerXx has switched alliances to Yellow Team
* xXPlayerXx has switched alliances to Red Team
* xXPlayerXx has switched alliances to Blue Team
* xXPlayerXx has switched alliances to Red Team

"He was totally dedicated to red team"

 

[ElFly]

Anti-terrorism is manned by other human beings. Just like the justice system, guilty people get away and innocent people get caught.

Sure, but surely the system isn't perfect. If it has failed twice, more or less in the same way, maybe there's a problem to fix there. Maybe it is just random chance and people will go through the cracks anyway, but there's also the possibility something went wrong.

Obama also isn't god. He can talk to as many rabbis, ministers, clergy men and Muslim leaders as he wants and has. That won't change their belief system and even if he could convince Muslim leaders to strike out all the homophobic passages from the Quran, that won't influence a radical group like IS nor will it end homophobia in general, from the innocuous to the violent. Kim Davis refusing to issue marriage licenses after same sex marriage legalization is just a microcosm of religious fundamentalism in a nutshell. Obama isn't gonna make a dent in it.

*shrug* Not saying Obama should convert other people to Obama-nism, but I don't think striking passages from the Quran is either necessary. If Omar had been acceptant of his homosexuality, this -probably- wouldn't have happened. That doesn't require huge changes.

You people are being quite inventive at making up excuses for what cannot be done.

 

[heliosRAzi]

You people are being quite inventive at making up excuses for what cannot be done.

Not wanting the president to break the law is a damn good excuse, though.

 

[HStallion]

Sure, but surely the system isn't perfect. If it has failed twice, more or less in the same way, maybe there's a problem to fix there. Maybe it is just random chance and people will go through the cracks anyway, but there's also the possibility something went wrong.



*shrug* Not saying Obama should convert other people to Obama-nism, but I don't think striking passages from the Quran is either necessary. If Omar had been acceptant of his homosexuality, this -probably- wouldn't have happened. That doesn't require huge changes.

You people are being quite inventive at making up excuses for what cannot be done.

And you're being damned simple minded at thinking these changes are just going to happen because your logic dictates no other way. You're just rambling at this point.

 

[EdibleKnife]

Sure, but surely the system isn't perfect. If it has failed twice, more or less in the same way, maybe there's a problem to fix there. Maybe it is just random chance and people will go through the cracks anyway, but there's also the possibility something went wrong.



*shrug* Not saying Obama should convert other people to Obama-nism, but I don't think striking passages from the Quran is either necessary. If Omar had been acceptant of his homosexuality, this -probably- wouldn't have happened. That doesn't require huge changes.

You people are being quite inventive at making up excuses for what cannot be done.

How is this inventive? You're arguing that one man should shoulder the responsibility of ending homophobia forever in a matter of a few years of meetings when it's been a form of bigotry that has existed in mankind since the age of the bible and might unfortunately exist long after Obama is dead. He's lucky he was able to get same sex marriage to pass in a nation like ours with the amount of religious fervor around the subject in the first place.

 

[ElFly]

Not wanting the president to break the law is a damn good excuse, though.

I don't know why you are obsessed with pretending that I said Obama should break the law.

Using executive orders is not breaking the law and it's just a minuscule part of my argument.

How is this inventive? You're arguing that one man should shoulder the responsibility of ending homophobia forever when it's been a form of bigotry that has existed in mankind since the age of the bible and might unfortunately exist long after Obama is dead.

I am arguing that this one man should try to do more than just answering the latest Donald Trump speech.

If it is ending homophobia forever (I didn't say that) so be it. I am asking for a lower standard, let's say just meeting with whoever was Omar's closest religious leader and cajole him into saying something about homophobia. Cajole other leaders. This wit and anger he uses against Trump can be used for more, where it can effect Change. You remember that word? From, you know, Obama's campaign.

But if you are so angry about how my ideas are so bad, let's hear your idea of what he could do.

Beyond, you know, do nothing.

Thinking it is impossible to do anything is worse than death.

 

[heliosRAzi]

I don't know why you are obsessed with pretending that I said Obama should break the law.

My bad, then. Although it seemed like you were suggesting that he should break the law earlier.

Using executive orders is not breaking the law and it's just a minuscule part of my argument.

And executive orders are temporary. If Trump ends up the being the next president, he can reverse every single order Obama gave. That's why it is best to go through Congress.

 

[TalonJH]

Sure, but surely the system isn't perfect. If it has failed twice, more or less in the same way, maybe there's a problem to fix there. Maybe it is just random chance and people will go through the cracks anyway, but there's also the possibility something went wrong.



*shrug* Not saying Obama should convert other people to Obama-nism, but I don't think striking passages from the Quran is either necessary. If Omar had been acceptant of his homosexuality, this -probably- wouldn't have happened. That doesn't require huge changes.

You people are being quite inventive at making up excuses for what cannot be done.

You realize that mass shootings and terrorist plots are stopped all the time, right?

This story happened right around the same time: Man with weapons was headed to L.A. gay pride parade
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-gay-pride-la-weapons-20160612-snap-story.html

It's not like these are the only attacks. We're always under attack. Most are stopped.

 

[ElFly]

You realize that mass shootings and terrorist plots are stopped all the time, right?

This story happened right around the same time: Man with weapons was headed to L.A. gay pride parade
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-gay-pride-la-weapons-20160612-snap-story.html

It's not like these are the only attacks. We're always under attack.

But this case was stopped by plain old police work. Guy disappeared, police was alerted, family says "he was a gun collector btw".

Again, Orlando was not like this. The FBI had interviewed Omar. The FBI had interviewed the Boston marathon bomber. They both fell through the cracks.

 

[EdibleKnife]

I am arguing that this one man should try to do more than just answering the latest Donald Trump speech.

If it is ending homophobia forever (I didn't say that) so be it. I am asking for a lower standard, let's say just meeting with whoever was Omar's closest religious leader and cajole him into saying something about homophobia.

But if you are so angry about how my ideas are so bad, let's hear your idea of what he could do.

Beyond, you know, do nothing.

What exactly do you think this would accomplish? Why would the leader listen to Obama? Why would the people who attend the leader's church listen to what he has to say about accepting homosexuals? Why, if there were another radicalized person such as Omar, listen to what his religious leader would have to say rather than the radicals he's pledged to?

We've already stated at the beginning of this exchange that the reason Obama is frustrated is because his hands are tied and it's already been suggested that the only way to change things is to vote from the ground up to get people who thrive on xenophobia and are handcuffed to interest groups like the NRA out of office and people who are interested in changing the way guns flow though our society into office. He can't do anything without the help of the American people.

 

[emag]

Obama also isn't god. He can talk to as many rabbis, ministers, clergy men and Muslim leaders as he wants and has. That won't change their belief system and even if he could convince Muslim leaders to strike out all the homophobic passages from the Quran, that won't influence a radical group like IS nor will it end homophobia in general, from the innocuous to the violent.

As an aside, there are exactly two explicitly homophobic passages in the Quran:

1. 'We also sent Lot : He said to his people : "Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you? For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds." '

2. 'What! Of all creatures do ye come unto the males, and leave the wives your Lord created for you? Nay, but ye are forward folk.'

 

[TalonJH]

But this case was stopped by plain old police work. Guy disappeared, police was alerted, family says "he was a gun collector btw".

Again, Orlando was not like this. The FBI had interviewed Omar. The FBI had interviewed the Boston marathon bomber. They both fell through the cracks.

And you think that the President receives information on every person the FBI detains? Thousands are detained a year.

 

[HStallion]

I am arguing that this one man should try to do more than just answering the latest Donald Trump speech.

If it is ending homophobia forever (I didn't say that) so be it. I am asking for a lower standard, let's say just meeting with whoever was Omar's closest religious leader and cajole him into saying something about homophobia. Cajole other leaders. This wit and anger he uses against Trump can be used for more, where it can effect Change. You remember that word? From, you know, Obama's campaign.

But if you are so angry about how my ideas are so bad, let's hear your idea of what he could do.

Beyond, you know, do nothing.

Thinking it is impossible to do anything is worse than death.

So you criticize Obama for just "talking" and giving useless speeches but your answer to the issues is Obama should do some more talking but to the person who Omar may have followed despite reports he wasn't exactly the most devout type. Seriously?

 

[ElFly]

What exactly do you think this would accomplish? Why would the leader listen to Obama? Why would the people who attend the leader's church listen to what he has to say about accepting homosexuals? Why, if there were another radicalized person such as Omar, listen to what his religious leader would have to say rather than the radicals he's pledged to?

If people won't listen then why did Obama make this speech anyway. People won't listen or change their minds.

I really doubt people won't listen to their religious leaders. At least somewhat. This guy lived closeted for like a decade. Maybe _slightly_ more acceptance could have kept him from radicalizing for the rest of his life. Again, the standard isn't "change all religion forever", but maybe just a little more tolerance could have let Omar live a more honest life.

We've already stated at the beginning of this exchange that the reason Obama is frustrated is because his hands are tied and it's already been suggested that the only way to change things is to vote from the ground up to get people who are handcuffed to interest groups like the NRA out of office and people who are interested in changing the way guns flow though our society into office. He can't do anything without the help of the American people.

Again, maybe the NRA is invincible. But this isn't the only angle to attack the problem.

 

[Diffense]

I'm saying that a group (religious or otherwise) doesn't have to be particularly totalitarian in order to earn the ire of a totalitarian regime. I am referring back to bonesmccoy's point:


You've said that two competing totalitarian ideologies will lead to conflict. That is a fair point. But religious groups can be (and have been) just as easily targeted for xenophobic persecution as anyone else. That cannot always be ascribed to a confict between two totalitarian ideologies.

MY original response was to someone who claimed that because irrelegious totalitarian regimes have also been brutal religion cannot be entirely blamed. My point was that Abrahamic religions contain the elements of totalitarian belief systems (and, btw, totalitarian regimes contain elements of religious devotion though not to traditional gods). They are expressions of it; forms of totalitarian regimes from ANOTHER era whose remnants haunt us like the Cheshire cat's smile. They claim that their invisible abstract God is the supreme ruler who establishes laws and codes of conduct for EVERY aspect of life. They often prescribe the death penalty for disobedience or defection. It's big brother. 19-fn-84 from B.C.E. Just because we label one "religion" and the other "government" does not make them fundamentally different in this respect. Certainly, the scriptural ideal of Judaism, Christianity and Islam is Theocracy, thereby uniting totalitarian belief systems with government. In their pure forms they are incompatible with a pluralistic society. The history of Christianity in Western Europe and the opressive Islamic regimes of today tell the story. So my initial protest was that there was a distinction made between modern totalitarian regimes and the Abrahamic religious ideal of what life should be like under their God when there is no fundamental difference.

I then commented that totalitarian governments have come into conflict with these religions because of their competing calls for complete unquestioned loyalty and commitment. While it was a peripheral point, this is an opinion I consider logical and I stand by it.

 

[TalonJH]

If people won't listen then why did Obama make this speech anyway. People won't listen or change their minds.

I really doubt people won't listen to their religious leaders. At least somewhat.



Again, maybe the NRA is invincible. But this isn't the only angle to attack the problem.

Because, as you asked, he has to try.

 

[ElFly]

Because, as you asked, he has to try.

So you agree that he should reach out to religious leaders or at least try to do something else than answer to Trump?

Good.

 

[Ray Wonder]

If he was watching all that ISIS propaganda and the FBI found out, wouldn't they be able to just check and see if he was watching a whole bunch of gay porn? That'd be pretty clear evidence right?

Maybe they will

 

[FreezeSSC]

If people won't listen then why did Obama make this speech anyway. People won't listen or change their minds.

I really doubt people won't listen to their religious leaders. At least somewhat. This guy lived closeted for like a decade. Maybe _slightly_ more acceptance could have kept him from radicalizing for the rest of his life. Again, the standard isn't change all religion forever, but maybe just a little more tolerance could have let Omar live a more honest life.



Again, maybe the NRA is invincible. But this isn't the only angle to attack the problem.

Their religious leaders won't listen to Obama, are you suggesting Obama threaten them into following his orders? Obama made this speech to put cracks in a wall, hopefully if enough people listen over time they'll realize that he's right and change their attitude on their own.

 

[Vicetrailia]

Ya'll, there are actually republican conspiracy theorists believing that this whole thing was fake. It's america, why am I surprised. Gotta protect them guns, gotta dismiss inequality and hate, gotta stop the liberal agenda.

 

[HStallion]

Ya'll, there are actually republican conspiracy theorists believing that this whole thing was fake. It's america, why am I surprised. Gotta protect them guns, gotta dismiss inequality and hate, gotta stop the liberal agenda.

They'll bend over backwards to disprove anything they don't like. They probably think Stanley Kubrick is kept in a cell just to be brought out to film fake tragedies and major world events.

 

[ElFly]

Their religious leaders won't listen to Obama, are you suggesting Obama threaten them into following his orders? Obama made this speech to put cracks in a wall, hopefully if enough people listen over time they'll realize that he's right and change their attitude on their own.

Maybe they won't but maybe they will.

You don't know.

You are presenting me with the excuses for failure before something is actually tried. Maybe you have a better plan of action than just empty speeches?

 

[heliosRAzi]

So you agree that he should reach out to religious leaders or at least try to do something else than answer to Trump?

Good.

I think that's a great suggestion, however, that wasn't your original complaint. You wanted to know how making speeches would prevent future mass shootings and we gave you the reasons why: he's hampered by Congress. Executive orders can be reversed just as easily as they are given. He can't force Congress to do anything. He can't declare that guns are illegal now. His hands are tied.

But now you've shifted over to the religious side of the debate. He should be meeting with religious leaders and telling them to cool it down on the homophobia. He probably is and it just isn't reported. But not all of the mass shootings are spurred by religious zealots or homophobes. Speaking to religious leaders won't do much about that.

 

[TalonJH]

So you agree that he should reach out to religious leaders or at least try to do something else than answer to Trump?

Good.

Is that much different than giving a speech? And he has talked with Muslim leaders.

He can't do much to them but talk and he has.

From a speech he gave at the Islamic Society of Baltimore in February:

Now, we do have another fact that we have to acknowledge. Even as the overwhelming majority -- and I repeat, the overwhelming majority -- of the world’s Muslims embrace Islam as a source of peace, it is undeniable that a small fraction of Muslims propagate a perverted interpretation of Islam. This is the truth.

Groups like al Qaeda and ISIL, they’re not the first extremists in history to misuse God’s name. We’ve seen it before, across faiths. But right now, there is a organized extremist element that draws selectively from Islamic texts, twists them in an attempt to justify their killing and their terror. They combine it with false claims that America and the West are at war with Islam. And this warped thinking that has found adherents around the world -- including, as we saw, tragically, in Boston and Chattanooga and San Bernardino -- is real. It’s there.

 

[shadowsdarknes]

The conspiracies are running wild again with this one.

 

[AyaisMUsikWhore]

When Dylan Roof shot up the Church, which religious leader would he have to talk to , to stop that from happening?

 

[reckless]

The conspiracies are running wild again with this one.

Always, hopefully people are less terrible than after Newton where parents have been harassed for years.

 

[Rhaknar]

posted? Samantha Bee weighs in on this

 

[Guileless]

Sometimes, I think that some Westerners do not appreciate the degree to which we are the product of hundreds of years of secularization working its way though the culture alongside opportunities provided by affluence beyond imagining for most people who have ever lived. And how fucking WEIRD that is, historically speaking.

 

[heliosRAzi]

When Dylan Roof shot up the Church, which religious leader would he have to talk to , to stop that from happening?

The NRA's leader, duh

 

[The Albatross]

The conspiracies are running wild again with this one.

Ya'll, there are actually republican conspiracy theorists believing that this whole thing was fake. It's america, why am I surprised. Gotta protect them guns, gotta dismiss inequality and hate, gotta stop the liberal agenda.

Also just saw this...

File it into the "Jews did 9/11" drawer

 

[jellies_two]

I think for a while now that the way Facebook etc streams stuff to people changes them. The whole engine is based on likely appeal and clicks so people get rivers of stuff that confirm their biases and mentally deranged people start burning in a self sustaining way from he steady flow of yes yes yes articles with not a single contrary voice.
This guy loaded up on isis media the way wingers load up on their crap, and after divorce and probably few friends they became the voices in his head.
If he was a message board user (like this board) he is forced to at least skim through opposing views.

 

[Revolver]

posted? Samantha Bee weighs in on this

Thanks for that. Sam Bee dropping absolute truth bombs there.

 

[Hex]

So, he was going to shoot up the place no matter what... ?

I think he used the ISIS crap to draw attention off of the fact that he was a closeted gay kid who hated himself and was full of hate for everything else.
It is still all people talk about on most news outlets.
The fact that he was a regular at the club and hit on guys has been mentioned but not nearly as loudly.


Is it really so different than twenty years ago a self hating kid instead of obsessing with terrorist groups obsessing about mass murderers and the devil to run from their self hate, and then pledging their loyalty to Satan and then shooting up a school or a business.
Doesn't mean that Satan called him and told him to do it.

For middle eastern kids I am sure that there is a different view on these factions.
They are freedom fighters and heroes as fucked as that is.

 

[beast786]

posted? Samantha Bee weighs in on this

Made some great points regarding AR and gun control

I always find it interesting it took 8 years in post grad studies and multiple test for me to be able to right Rx but not to by guns

 

[beast786]

I think he used the ISIS crap to draw attention off of the fact that he was a closeted gay kid who hated himself and was full of hate for everything else.
It is still all people talk about on most news outlets.
The fact that he was a regular at the club and hit on guys has been mentioned but not nearly as loudly.


Is it really so different than twenty years ago a self hating kid instead of obsessing with terrorist groups obsessing about mass murderers and the devil to run from their self hate, and then pledging their loyalty to Satan and then shooting up a school or a business.
Doesn't mean that Satan called him and told him to do it.

For middle eastern kids I am sure that there is a different view on these factions.
They are freedom fighters and heroes as fucked as that is.

He wasn't middle Easter

And he was religious

"Daniel Gilroy, who worked alongside Mateen for about a year as a security guard for a gated community, said he brought a prayer rug and skullcap to work and prayed on his knees during his shifts."

 

[Hex]

He wasn't middle Easter

And he was religious

"Daniel Gilroy, who worked alongside Mateen for about a year as a security guard for a gated community, said he brought a prayer rug and skullcap to work and prayed on his knees during his shifts."

Interesting. Everything I had heard before said that he was not religious.
While he may have been born in the US, he was definitely of middle eastern decent.

 

[Theanine3D]

Interesting. Everything I had heard before said that he was not religious.

That came largely from statements from his father, I believe, but his father has proven to be a homophobic lying clown with some probable mental issues of his own.

 

[reckless]

So he wasn't a regular at the club for the last 2 years and for at least the last 2 years has been busying browsing extremist sites.

And the earlier FBI investigation was just him trying to scare people?

One official familiar with the investigation, who spoke on the condition of anonymity, said investigators are only beginning to delve into the contents of Mateen's cellphone and other electronic devices. The source said they believe Mateen browsed militant Islamic material on the internet for two years or more before the Orlando shootings.

A performer at Orlando's Parliament House, another gay club, said he had seen Mateen at Pulse occasionally before his rampage, often accompanied by a male friend. He had not seen Mateen in about two years, he said.

He also claimed solidarity in those calls with the ethnic Chechen brothers who carried out the deadly 2013 Boston Marathon bombing and with a Palestinian-American who became a suicide bomber in Syria for the al Qaeda offshoot known as the Nusra Front, authorities said.

He was removed from this so-called selectee list after the FBI completed a nine- or 10-month investigation and concluded he had no connections with known terrorist groups, two of the officials said. One added that investigators concluded that Mateen, who at times claimed ties to groups that are fighting one another, may have been a "fantasist."

Comey said the FBI closed its earlier investigation of Mateen after 10 months, convinced that his assertions of extremist ties were intended to "freak out" co-workers who he said were harassing him for being a Muslim.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-florida-shooting-idUSKCN0Z017C

 

[SchrodingerC]

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/or...w&hootPostID=1631d0b4632c0a40025001e8aec55bcf






Jesus.

She couldn't have done more to stop him, especially when knowing he was about to carry out the attack?!
One call could have potentially saved those in the nightclub.

 

[entremet]

He wasn't middle Easter

And he was religious

"Daniel Gilroy, who worked alongside Mateen for about a year as a security guard for a gated community, said he brought a prayer rug and skullcap to work and prayed on his knees during his shifts."

Thanks for clarifying. That he was not religious has been debunked already.

 

[jmdajr]

How many people in this country actually care about politics.

half?

I remember not caring about Politics until 9/11 happened. The right, the left..I understood nothing. I was just in my own little hobby world.

When horrible shit happens people start paying attention. It's up to the President to reason with them and make them care. Get more people on your side.

 

[D4Danger]

She couldn't have done more to stop him, especially when knowing he was about to carry out the attack?!
One call could have potentially saved those in the nightclub.

if she knew she's as guilty as him.

 

[beast786]

Interesting. Everything I had heard before said that he was not religious.
While he may have been born in the US, he was definitely of middle eastern decent.

No dude, he was definitely NOT of middle eastern decent.

 

[K.Jack]

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/or...w&hootPostID=1631d0b4632c0a40025001e8aec55bcf

Jesus.

She knew he was going to do it. Even went with him while he bought ammo.

She drove him there to scope out the club.

Put her under the jail.

 

[eddie4]

found this floating around social media.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

found this floating around social media.

why are we posting stupid stuff? This is trash and doesn't even deserve to be posted.

Stupid people post stupid things