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[Panajev2001a]

That was not really a advantage not at $600 lol
Even if it was the cheapest blu ray player at the time .

Not that it sold because of this alone, but to give Sony credit it was also the best and most future proof Blu-Ray player around.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Why is there always a revisionist history with the PS4 that makes it seem like the PS4 was successful ONLY because MS screwed up? Was that a decent sized factor? Yes, but it was the solitary reason for Sony's success.

From a couple of posts before yours we can learn that Sony is now winning 4 consecutive home console generations in a row due mostly to luck/competitors fecking up each time lol.

 

[Welfare]

Blu-ray sales is declining with double digits every year while streaming is growing with double digits every year. There is only 5 million 4k tv's in the us (jan 2016), so I think you are exaggerating the importance of a 4k blu-ray player in this day and age. In other words who cares? a tiny market segment maybe cares

The XB1S can stream 4K content as well. 4k will become the standard and is growing every year, so calling it tiny now is pointless.

 

[Primethius]

Who said it was a negative? By most measures, given what happened with the PS3, Sony played it pretty safe and for good reason. The fact that the paywall was introduced with little to no detrimental effect on their image/sales merely shows how much Microsoft's fuck ups played the major role in how this gen went down. That's all I was saying.

3rd console curse struck Microsoft hard.

Ditto last gen. Microsoft played it safe with the 360. Sony's fuck ups were a major contributor to Microsoft's success. Not the ONLY one, but a major. Same with this gen, but in reverse.

If Microsoft had played it safer, kept the price down, shut the fuck up about TV and not tried to introduce the DRM, there's no way we'd be seeing the gap we have now. Would Sony still be leading worldwide? For sure. But not by the 2:1 (close enough) margin they are. To this day, there are people out there that think the Xbox to be needs to be always online.

This gen showed that MS fucked up just beyond there initial reveal in terms of focus and overall strategy. They literally don't give two fucks about any market beyond the US/UK. It wouldn't be 2:1 due to the increased marketshare of the US (but how much is debatable) but it would still be a pretty hefty thrashing.

Maybe the gap would be a couple million consoles smaller. But the XB1 wasn't going to magically start selling in the ROTW unless MS really changed how they operate and treated the ROTW.

360 sold 45 million plus consoles in NA (aka pretty much double the PS3's if not a bit more so) and still got outsold by a bit WW (if not roughly even/close). That's an infrastructure thing that MS hasn't remotely tried to solve.

This gen, the gap between the two consoles in NA is less then 2 million due to aggressive MS pricing. And all of MS's mistakes would basically be laser focused on the NA market, ignoring the primary reason why they are getting destroyed in sales so much.

tl;dr: People are vastly overstating the NA market's impact in the PS4's domination sales wise.

 

[Inuhanyou]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_singularity

That's a scary thought.

Agreed. I hope they don't limit 4K to neo, and they also refresh the standard ps4 with a UHD drive and HDMI 2.0. But they probably won't, as they'll want plenty of KSPs lined up to persuade people to buy neo.

I think they will limit 4K and UHDBR(and HDR) to NEO. Having the PS4 original as it is, and NEO with all the upgrades clearly differentiates the two as premium unit vs basic unit without needing more to seperate the two.

If you see NEO with all those upgrades and base PS4 with none, the definition of premium unit is more attractive than if your just talking about power for games, which would need a bigger boost to make that case.

 

[Sjefen]

The XB1S can stream 4K content as well. 4k will become the standard and is growing every year, so calling it tiny now is pointless.

Im calling the market segment tiny and wont have a real impact on the sales of the xbs1

 

[c0de]

It's not my definition, it's gatti-man's. N64 vs PS is another good example.

The N64 was more powerful but didn't produce the best graphics so the comparison is off.

 

[Bitch Pudding]

Im calling the market segment tiny and wont have a real impact on the sales of the xbs1

This remains to be seen, but I suppose we can agree that a $299 SKU with UHD capability will have a better stance in the market than a $299 SKU without it.

 

[Conduit]

360 sold 45 million plus consoles in NA (aka pretty much double the PS3's if not a bit more so) and still got outsold by a bit WW (if not roughly even/close). That's an infrastructure thing that MS hasn't remotely tried to solve.

41 mil. X360s vs. 26 mil. PS3s in US is not 2:1

 

[Bitch Pudding]

41 mil. X360s vs. 26 mil. PS3s in US is not 2:1

Like my professor always said: Pi is 3

 

[Jumeira]

Im calling the market segment tiny and wont have a real impact on the sales of the xbs1

All new TVs are 4k, so it puts xb1 s as an option to make use of your TVs features and play games, also lines up the idea that Xbox brand offers compatibility. This argument has been used before and has always been poor. For broadband internet (XBL), for HD TV (360 launch).

 

[Fafalada]

Original Xbox was cut short and came out late. Not sure what you expect there.

Original XBox also had objectively the biggest hardware advantage of any console released in same generation against its competitors.

 

[Blueboys1306]

The N64 was more powerful but didn't produce the best graphics so the comparison is off.

It didn't produce better graphics? How???

 

[kikonawa]

It didn't produce better graphics? How???

it had bile-near filtering, but had less polygon throughput if i remember correctly.
thats why most games are a blurry mess.

 

[EmilioLargo]

it had bile-near filtering, but had less polygon throughput if i remember correctly.
thats why most games are a blurry mess.

Somehow back in the days I felt N64 certainly had better graphics. Somehow this blurry mess seems to have aged very poorly.

 

[c0de]

It didn't produce better graphics? How???

You can argue that back and forth, I guess. The IQ was supposed to be better but looked often horribly on a TV. In terms of raw poly count, the PS1 outdid the N64 by quite a lot.
On paper, the N64 was really much more powerful (64 bit against 32 bit, way higher clock) but this didn't result in better graphics which was due to a number of reasons.
PS1 textures didn't have filtering and no perspective correct texture mapping but games looked more detailed. Not to mention that character models looked way better on PS1.
This does not mean that there were no good looking N64 games and that there were games which weren't possible on PS1.

 

[Razgreez]

Somehow back in the days I felt N64 certainly had better graphics. Somehow this blurry mess seems to have aged very poorly.

Textures were always blurrier but everything else looked better to my eye. Check some online video comparisons

 

[Rhazer Fusion]

We are seemingly so close to the release of the PS Neo, yet it seems like information is still sort of, what's the word, unconfirmed?

 

[Bitch Pudding]

We are seemingly so close to the release of the PS Neo, yet it seems like information is still sort of, what's the word, unconfirmed?

 

[family_guy]

All new TVs are 4k, so it puts xb1 s as an option to make use of your TVs features and play games, also lines up the idea that Xbox brand offers compatibility. This argument has been used before and has always been poor. For broadband internet (XBL), for HD TV (360 launch).

I think the point is that 4k Bluray as a feature isn't going to be that large a selling point since streaming is what many people are flocking to, and 4k streaming apps is pretty much on any new TV you buy today so it doesn't make that functionality as big a deal as it would have 5-10 years ago when many people had dumb tvs. Not to say it won't benefit many because I am one of the people who still purchases Blurays. I suppose the biggest problem is the Xbox One S has a horrible value proposition as a competitor to Neo. It's much weaker, only a little cheaper(if you go with the cheapest model assuming Neo is $400), doesn't bitstream audio, has no VR solution, and is still the same platform that is less supported by devs than Playstation. If you don't have an Xbox and really want the exclusives right now then it's worth a buy, but they really aren't offering much for the people who already own one to upgrade, especially when they can wait 1 year for Scorpio. They kind of messed up with the multiple HDD skus. Should have just ate the cost and said $300 for the 2TB model, or better yet just keep 500gb and allow you to finally upgrade your internal HDD.

 

[Atomski]

Somehow back in the days I felt N64 certainly had better graphics. Somehow this blurry mess seems to have aged very poorly.

I felt the same. I preferred the blurry mess to the jaggy hell of ps1 titles. Both were bad though really.

We are seemingly so close to the release of the PS Neo, yet it seems like information is still sort of, what's the word, unconfirmed?

I can't wait for the thread posts..

"I just bought a ps4 yesterday wtf Sony!?"

They will probably then add a trade in program where you will still lose 100 dollars

 

[Bitch Pudding]

I felt the same. I preferred the blurry mess to the jaggy hell of ps1 titles. Both were bad though really.

I can't wait for the thread posts..

"I just bought a ps4 yesterday wtf Sony!?"

They will probably then add a trade in program where you will still lose 100 dollars

Those are inevitable, but from people who don't spent much time reading video games related websites in the first place or listening to friends who do. Everyone else should be well aware that Sony plans to introduce Neo within the upcoming months.

 

[Markitron]

Those are inevitable, but from people who don't spent much time reading video games related websites in the first place or listening to friends who do. Everyone else should be well aware that Sony plans to introduce Neo within the upcoming months.

They may introduce a price drop to the original PS4 to soften the blow, possibly right when the Neo is announced.

 

[nynt9]

The XB1S can stream 4K content as well. 4k will become the standard and is growing every year, so calling it tiny now is pointless.

A lot of people don't have the bandwidth to stream 4K and the default plans offered by a lot of ISPs are still way below what you need for that.

 

[Bitch Pudding]

They may introduce a price drop to the original PS4 to soften the blow, possibly right when the Neo is announced.

I expect a price drop as well, maybe even a complete new entry SKU with PS4 specs but UHD capability, given XBOX One S for $299 supports this.

But I am not sure if a price drop softens the blow for those who just paid $349 bucks for a PS4 a couple of days or weeks earlier

 

[AmFreak]

For eg Japanese games .
I think you are forgetting that when 360 first came out it had loads of them.
It got bunch of games from Japanese companies and MS also invest in them early on.
In the early years Japanese games were not a problem for MS.

There are 2 points here. Expectations and reality.
Expectations were close to zero after the original Xbox, so people wanting japanese games had to be convinced.
As you mentioned they tried that at the beginning, but after a few years they stopped.
There might have been a small window were the 360 was seen as an alternative to the PS3, but overall the PS3 was clearly the console to get if you wanted to play japanese games.

 

[LordOfChaos]

A 22% increase in memory bandwidth for over double the GPU execution power seems out of sync. Especially if they want to target ~2K and upscale to 4K, even the low end of that target range is twice the pixels as 1080p.

And then, the Jaguar CPU was the weak spot of both consoles already. This will prove the limit to making current games 60fps, no doubt. I too would prefer 1080p 60 to higher res on consoles attached to HDTVs.

I suppose this bodes well for original PS4 owners, if anything...

 

[HarryKS]

Why people arguing about 4k streaming on those devices?

4K tvs already come in with native solutions for uhd streaming...

Console streaming at 4k is redundant.

 

[McHuj]

A 22% increase in memory bandwidth for over double the GPU execution power seems out of sync. Especially if they want to target ~2K and upscale to 4K, even the low end of that target range is twice the pixels as 1080p.

And then, the Jaguar CPU was the weak spot of both consoles already. This will prove the limit to making current games 60fps, no doubt. I too would prefer 1080p 60 to higher res on consoles attached to HDTVs.

I suppose this bodes well for original PS4 owners, if anything...

It's a little more than the BW the R380X has for it ~4 Tflop GPU so the BW should be sufficient especially if they are going with an even more BW efficient GPU like Polaris.

 

[LordOfChaos]

Checkerboard rendering:

http://twvideo01.ubm-us.net/o1/vaul...s/El_Mansouri_Jalal_Rendering_Rainbow_Six.pdf

 

[DeepEnigma]

Why people arguing about 4k streaming on those devices?

4K tvs already come in with native solutions for uhd streaming...

Console streaming at 4k is redundant.

Agreed. I find it way more convenient to use the apps on the TV, since they work great, I do not have to have a console running to watch shows or switch to a different input/picture preset, and I am in and out of the apps on the fly.

Very true. I can stream 4K HDR on my TV , plus 4K media on sub via VLC.

I am interested in UBR on console though.

Yep, for media, this is the only interest. The TV's already handle the rest, without having another electricity/heat waster running.

 

[pelican]

Why people arguing about 4k streaming on those devices?

4K tvs already come in with native solutions for uhd streaming...

Console streaming at 4k is redundant.

Very true. I can stream 4K HDR on my TV , plus 4K media on sub via VLC.

I am interested in UBR on console though.

 

[LukasTaves]

Agreed. Sony and MS will likely not mandate it, but publishers will continue to support PS4 even when it isn't required by Sony (and same with Xbox). Assuming the same architecture, publishers will continue to support for as long as their PC-based engines can scale low enough to support legacy consoles. It is a huge benefit for publishers to lower costs of transitioning between generations and needing to have multiple teams working on very different versions.

Exactly.

Forward compatibility= Longer cross-gen phase

Nothing more, nothing less. At some point developers will have to let the weaker console go. Just like system requirements on PC change with time...

Not quite just that. Having the same game on both consoles does open some interesting opportunities that previously only PC had. For instance games with long term support can be viable, including even being updated/revamped in a few years even if patches out previous hardware.

 

[RoboPlato]

A 22% increase in memory bandwidth for over double the GPU execution power seems out of sync. Especially if they want to target ~2K and upscale to 4K, even the low end of that target range is twice the pixels as 1080p.

And then, the Jaguar CPU was the weak spot of both consoles already. This will prove the limit to making current games 60fps, no doubt. I too would prefer 1080p 60 to higher res on consoles attached to HDTVs.

I suppose this bodes well for original PS4 owners, if anything...

2k is basically 1080p

What res are people referring to when they keep saying 2k? I've seen it a lot lately.

 

[LordOfChaos]

2k is 1080p

What res are people referring to when they keep saying 2k? I've seen it a lot lately.

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/916373-pc/68257391

The terminology is all mucked up though, yeah. But their slide deck there mentions a resolution at least double the pixels of 1080p at any rate

 

[RoboPlato]

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/916373-pc/68257391

The terminology is all mucked up though, yeah. But their slide deck there mentions a resolution at least double the pixels of 1080p at any rate

2k is 2048x1080. Slightly above 1920x1080 but it's a real standard in cinema.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2K_resolution

I guess 1080p as traditionally referred to isn't 2k but I don't think people mean 2048x1080 when they say 2k

BTW I do agree with you on the bandwidth. Obviously it won't be doubled, even Scorpio doesn't have double the bandwidth of PS4, but I think it should get a bit of an upgrade there in order to hit the resolutions Sony wants devs to target.

 

[c0de]

It's a little more than the BW the R380X has for it ~4 Tflop GPU so the BW should be sufficient especially if they are going with an even more BW efficient GPU like Polaris.

Keep in mind that the bandwidth is shared with the CPU. Garlic and Onion both access the memory.

 

[MilkyJoe]

Why people arguing about 4k streaming on those devices?

4K tvs already come in with native solutions for uhd streaming...

Console streaming at 4k is redundant.

Was the first thing I said to my mate after the xbone reveal. All this TV stuff when Netflix, Love Film, Amazon, iplayer, YouTube etc.... are already apps built into my TV. I couldn't understand it then and I still can't, it's an incredible waste of electricity to have two appliances on to do one job! That goes double for HDMI pass-through.

 

[TyMiles2012]

So how would checkerboard rendering work? My UHDTV only has 1 HDMI 2.0 port and 4 standard 4k 30hz. Would this method work similarly to interlacing where it buffers two 30hz buffers every other frame at every other pixel to allow 60hz on a standard HDMI slot? I'd like to save my one 4K slot for NX if it supports a 4K buffer since I would likely use it more. (I know there's no way in hell NX would have 4K games) I don't think I've seen 2.0 splitters yet.

 

[family_guy]

Agreed. I find it way more convenient to use the apps on the TV, since they work great, I do not have to have a console running to watch shows or switch to a different input/picture preset, and I am in and out of the apps on the fly.



Yep, for media, this is the only interest. The TV's already handle the rest, without having another electricity/heat waster running.

Only issue here that TV manufacturers have proven that they are terrible at updating their apps and support often gets dropped when their new line of TVs come out. Also most TVs don't pass audio formats like Dolby Digital+ to your receiver, just Dolby Digital. So in this regard it's great to have the apps on a console that will be supported for many years to come.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Only issue here that TV manufacturers have proven that they are terrible at updating their apps and support often gets dropped when their new line of TVs come out. Also most TVs don't pass audio formats like Dolby Digital+ to your receiver, just Dolby Digital. So in this regard it's great to have the apps on a console that will be supported for many years to come.

You do have a point there with that for some features. Thankfully Netflix has been on the ball. Others are slowly catching up.

 

[dragonelite]

So how would checkerboard rendering work? My UHDTV only has 1 HDMI 2.0 port and 4 standard 4k 30hz. Would this method work similarly to interlacing where it buffers two 30hz buffers every other frame at every other pixel to allow 60hz on a standard HDMI slot? I'd like to save my one 4K slot for NX if it supports a 4K buffer since I would likely use it more. (I know there's no way in hell NX would have 4K games) I don't think I've seen 2.0 splitters yet.

Your tv will be fed a 4k image, the console will make the 4k image.
Just plug Neo in the HDMI 2.0 slot. Nx will probably go for 1080p in that case use a
hdmi 1.0 slot and your tv will upscale the image.

 

[LurkFish17]

Were there any insiders commenting on this development that I may have missed?

 

[Chobel]

PS3 didn't sell as well as xbox360 its first year without a doubt. Sony cut the price and removed barriers and it started to take off.

No, PS3 was selling better than 360 day one.

Original Xbox was cut short and came out late. Not sure what you expect there.

I expect the best hardware with no price barrier, just like your state it.

And even if Xbox OG was not cut short, PS2 would still win the console sales. Xbox OG was selling way behind PS2, and that wouldn't have changed by extending the life of generation by 1 or 2 years.
-----------------

Who said it was a negative? [...]

You? I mean read your post here

Sorta disagree here. It was a very major factor. The fact that Sony found such huge success when they played it pretty safe with a fairly standard "games console", decided to charge for multiplayer and basically released almost no noteworthy exclusives for the first year or so says MS' fuck ups played a massive role.

It implies playing it safe with standard "games console" shouldn't get you big success.

 

[Chobel]

oops.

 

[LogN]

Paul Raines (CEO of GameStop) hinted at a release this year in an interview on CNBC a little while ago. http://finance.yahoo.com/video/sales-100-stores-poke-stops-142700161.html
GameStop CEO J. Paul Raines, discusses the success of the Pokemon Go app bringing traffic to stores in a normally slower video game season, and how his company plans to profit off it.

Comment toward end of video, also said March for NX, as said by Nintendo.

 

[backbreaker65]

Man how can you guys have a conversation about the same information released several months back and it be so many post about the same thing over and over again?

 

[Fafalada]

Would this method work similarly to interlacing

No - while anything using a temporal component is conceptually similar to interlacing, what gets sent to TV is a standard 4k signal, there are no tricks there.
Mind you - it's difficult to refer to this as a "single" technique as it's literally an array of countless possible approaches - but messing with what is being sent over cable interlace-style would require a special mode on displays themselves.

Keep in mind that the bandwidth is shared with the CPU. Garlic and Onion both access the memory.

The thing to keep in mind is that Sony has access to profiling information of the entire PS4 library, which gives them a much better overview of what bandwith utilization looks like than any of us.

 

[LurkFish17]

Paul Raines (CEO of GameStop) hinted at a release this year in an interview on CNBC a little while ago. http://finance.yahoo.com/video/sales-100-stores-poke-stops-142700161.html
GameStop CEO J. Paul Raines, discusses the success of the Pokemon Go app bringing traffic to stores in a normally slower video game season, and how his company plans to profit off it.

Comment toward end of video, also said March for NX, as said by Nintendo.

Would the specs in the document still be accurate despite Sony seeing what the Scorpio is working with?

 

[DeepEnigma]

Man how can you guys have a conversation about the same information released several months back and it be so many post about the same thing over and over again?

War, war never changes.

dulce et decorum Estate

I would hope some do not consider themselves in the same realm as that. If so, seek counseling.