Is Hillary smack-talk not allowed here anymore?

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Holy shit. Can you even read?
I clarified that flip flopping was not the right word.
So Iraq doesnt count.
So changing her view late to the party on Gay marriage when it mattered most doesn't count. Obama did the same? I hold it against Obama too???? Again can you read? There is nothing inconsistent about my position. You just say And TPP so I guess that doesn't count either.

Now, we are getting a Goal post move with: "It is what politicians should do" Pretend to hold one position because it is popular instead of being leaders on an issue. My whole post is that I don't agree that that is what politicians should do. I disagree with that attitude and that practice!

Hillary defense force is hilarious.
When did I say Hillary was 'particularly bad' compared to other politicians? I don't like that she is not better. This is 100% a strawman.
It is like you assume that anyone who is not a Hillary fanboy must be biased unfairly against her. It is pathetic.

Your whole response is a strawman and a goal post move, as explained clearly above.
If your argument is that she chooses positions to take based on what others are doing, her voting record shows otherwise. She is much farther to the left than the vast majority of the Democratic Party and has only moved farther in that direction over time. If your argument is that she does not lead, assert or take stances on issues that are potentially politically unpopular then her exceptionally documented career shows otherwise. Hillary Clinton was a noteworthy First Woman specifically for doing the things you claim she does not and exhibiting the traits you believe she lacks.

I'm not suggesting she has not made mistakes, or that she does not currently hold positions that are worthy of criticism. Specifically, I acknowledge Clinton's position on the TPP and I ask you to elaborate on how this supports your characterization of her beyond the fact that you disagree with it. You're welcome to show me where I am moving goal posts here. That's not my intention at all, especially in a thread where people are accusing Hillary Clinton supporters of being unable to endure fair criticisms.

As a gay American I am going to respond with more depth to your continued use of the marriage vote as a criticism. I did not expect Obama or Clinton to publicly support marriage equality during the 2000s and earlier while running for their respective positions. I believe doing so and allowing the GOP to seize the issue as a pivotal wedge would have likely cost Progressivism one its most important elections. And that would have done more damage to LGBTQ rights and marriage equality in the United States.

Indeed, I think it is a little disingenuous of you to keep harping on the marriage vote when your insistence that Obama and the Left in general should have doomed it via premature advocacy suggests it is not an issue you are personally affected by. The left's pragmatism on that issue was not a failure to me. Results are what matter and the end result of liberals biding their time and wisely picking their battles wrt marriage equality is that now I, as a gay man, can marry who the fuck I want when only a few years ago that was an impossibility.

I sincerely do not wish to be the Aaron of your alternative reality where idealism was championed over political pragmatism and every future advocate of LGBTQ rights in the government lost their bid to govern to the GOP and the forward progress of liberalism ground to a halt. Sure, that alt-Aaron may be able to proudly state the liberal politicians he voted for cared more about ideals and being publicly uncompromising and pure. But this Aaron can propose to a man.

I think I win.
 
I guess so, and I'm glad we actually have a thread discussing Hillary and people's opinions on her, which I feel like we haven't had a legitimate back and forth on in forever, rather than Trump engulfing everything everyday.

And you do understand why that is right?

I mean, we could only have so many threads on her emails every day, whereas Trump provides new material daily.

I mean it really seems like Hillary is purposely staying out of the limelight right now, letting Trump sink his own ship.
 
I guess so, and I'm glad we actually have a thread discussing Hillary and people's opinions on her, which I feel like we haven't had a legitimate back and forth on in forever, rather than Trump engulfing everything everyday.

That's more of Trump doing his best (or worst?) to stay in the headlines.
 
Legitimate criticisms of Clinton that bother even me as a supporter are buried under piles and piles of bullshit propaganda, overt / inert sexism, false equivalences, et cetera.

I don't really mind if someone says they don't like Hillary Clinton, but with how information of her has been presented and primed to audiences for the past few decades, I can't help but wonder where the source of that dislike comes from.

She's not as charismatic and relatable to me as Obama, but she's still done her fair share of progressive work. She's not anti-science, libertarian, or Trump either, so that's cool.
 
No one cares about GJ enough for him to ever be caught up in anything, just like no one gives a shit about you enough to follow you around all day with a camera and take pictures of your wrongdoing.

That doesn't mean you're better behaved than most celebrities. It just means no one is paying attention to you.

Clintons, both of them, have been in the spotlight for decades. GJ is "who? My accountant?" to most people.

Are you saying that it's ok for Hillary to be involved with scandals and make terrible decisions because she is in the spotlight? That's an odd way to view it imo. She chose to be in the spotlight. I didn't.

As far as Gary Johnson goes, people do not know who he is due to media and people claiming a 3rd party can never win, but the reasoning to why they can never win doesn't make sense. People should educate themselves to realize we have more than 2 options.
 
As an outsider to election talk outside of LOL Trump moments, it's interesting watching all of you against her use the exact same highly debatable talking points. The gay marriage flip that literally every politician has done within the last five years, general questions of her trustworthiness with no real meat to back it up, and even criticisms of a person for wanting to be president. (??? What do you have against ambition?)

Mix up your news sources and don't assume you haven't fallen for some bullshit. No one ever thinks they have.
 
Are you saying that it's ok for Hillary to be involved with scandals and make terrible decisions because she is in the spotlight? That's an odd way to view it imo. She chose to be in the spotlight. I didn't.

As far as Gary Johnson goes, people do not know who he is due to media and people claiming a 3rd party can never win, but the reasoning to why they can never win doesn't make sense. People should educate themselves to realize we have more than 2 options.

If we're going to talk about educating ourselves, you should maybe go through that list of scandals and do some research on them...
 
Personally I think Hilary is a liar and has too many skeletons in her closet and coming from Haiti has changed my entire perspective of her.

Americans yall have it hard. Choose between a bigot and a liar.
 
She just wants the job and will say anything for it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dY77j6uBHI

But then the other option is trump so yeah.

I'm just going to sit out and hope whoever wins is just a one term president for someone better next time.

Trump isn't ruining America in four years with Congress the way it is. He isn't even going to get ultra conservative justices that want to gas gays with how politicized Supreme Court confirmations have become.
 
As I stated, politicians tend to flip flop. With that said, most aren't constantly involved in a ton of scandals and investigations.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/oct/12/bill-clinton-hillary-clinton-scandals-ranked-from-/

I simply do not trust her to run the U.S. with her track record.

Most of that is all bullshit right-wing talking points.

Use of a private email server is about the only substantive thing on that list.

I actually think the email thing would have hurt her more if the right hadn't been crying wolf endlessly.
 
I mean, there are things about Hillary I disagree with.

But any general 'I just don't like her' or 'shes untrustworthy' I chalk up to sexism.

That said, there are people who have disagreed with her.
 
Are you saying that it's ok for Hillary to be involved with scandals and make terrible decisions because she is in the spotlight? That's an odd way to view it imo. She chose to be in the spotlight. I didn't.

As far as Gary Johnson goes, people do not know who he is due to media and people claiming a 3rd party can never win, but the reasoning to why they can never win doesn't make sense. People should educate themselves to realize we have more than 2 options.

Stop talking about "involved in so many scandals" and start naming them by name, with receipts. None of this "I heard Bill Clinton did something, that counts as a dent against Hillary!" BS like on the link you posted. Because you're not doing anything to disprove what I mentioned in my previous post:

That's the problem with the "trust issues" that many people have; they're predicated on the implied acceptance of controversies regardless of whether or not they're legitimate or have evidence of wrongdoing. All people have to do is look at the sheer number of times X politician has been antagonized and droves of people will go "they're not trustworthy! Just look at how many times they've been antagonized!"

People need to start doing a much better job of sifting through the BS, because there's a lot. Don't just look at the mountain of bullshit and assume it's all true because it very obviously isn't.
 
I dislike both, and good god l wont vote for trump. Even if I dislike her and im usually more on the right fiscally, im voting for hillary. My dad certainly hates it, but oh well.
 
I'm just going to sit out and hope whoever wins is just a one term president for someone better next time.

Trump isn't ruining America in four years with Congress the way it is. He isn't even going to get ultra conservative justices that want to gas gays with how politicized Supreme Court confirmations have become.

You do realize that Congress is the "way it is" because it's held by the GOP right?
 
She's not as charismatic as she should be as a candidate.

Her foreign policy is pretty damn bad.

Her response to the email server is absolutely terrible.

These things matter.
 
Here's something about Hillary I just cannot stand and I am shocked it's not discussed here. Her logo....It's just. Not good. It is not a good logo. Obama's logo, that was a symbol. Hillary's, looks like a high school student's warm up in graphic design class.
It's not terrible, just blandly functional. Insert joke about symbol matching candidate here.
 
I'm just going to sit out and hope whoever wins is just a one term president for someone better next time.

Trump isn't ruining America in four years with Congress the way it is. He isn't even going to get ultra conservative justices that want to gas gays with how politicized Supreme Court confirmations have become.

If Trump wins you better believe the GOP is going to jump up and down with glee and recognize him as their lord and savior. Literally the only reason why the GOP is against Trump right now is because they're certain it won't get him elected, and they're certain there'll be tremendous fallout. If he said literally the exact same things he's saying now and if he was completely dominating Hillary in the polls, none of them would be giving Trump any shit over anything.

If Trump wins it'll be a completely groundbreaking victory in politics and the GOP is gonna be first in line to jump on the bandwagon. You truly think Republicans are going to turn around and antagonize Trump? Nope, they're gonna work their hardest to push as much of his shit legislation and SCOTUS nominations as possible.
 
And you do understand why that is right?

I mean, we could only have so many threads on her emails every day, whereas Trump provides new material daily.

I mean it really seems like Hillary is purposely staying out of the limelight right now, letting Trump sink his own ship.

That's more of Trump doing his best (or worst?) to stay in the headlines.

Oh most definitely, I understand that. Controversy natrually brings coverage. And Trump has certainly shown he is the king of controversy. It's just nice every now and then to pretend that this is actually somewhat of a normal election rather than just a battle of good vs. evil, where both canidates can be criticized and discussed. It helps people learn. That's what we're supposed to do. You know, America and such.
 
If we're going to talk about educating ourselves, you should maybe go through that list of scandals and do some research on them...

Dude is somewhat uninformed. Until yesterday he thought that Trump was business man extraordinaire. The value of his opinions have to be weighted by that fact.

To his credit he actually read about it and understood it.
 
Oh most definitely, I understand that. Controversy natrually brings coverage. And Trump has certainly shown he is the king of controversy. It's just nice every now and then to pretend that this is actually somewhat of a normal election where both canidates can be criticized and discussed. It helps people learn. That's what we're supposed to do. You know, America and such.

If you can just hold out a little longer, like after November when she's elected president, there will be pleeenty of criticizing, I promise. heh.
 
The primary season political news threads on this board were probably the most disheartening and disappointing I've ever seen.

I just saw so much blatant disrespect for anyone who wasn't a Hillary supporter, and I felt legitimately bad for Bernie fans on this board around that time. It started out slow but in the mid-to-late primaries it was just totally gross.

Any attempts at conversation were drowned out, and there are many posters I now see who I saw during those threads who I have a blatant distaste for. Not that any of this matters in the long run, and I personally can't wait for Hillary to take office, but man, what an ugly look that for this forum in those threads.

That said, Neogaf still remains one of the most open minded forums on the web in my opinion. There are clearly many individuals who do well/are popular that do not share the broad majorities opinions, and as long as its not blatantly disrespectful, almost any topic can be broached (if gone about the correct way).
 
The problem with Clinton bashing in relation to Trump is that its mostly whataboutism that employs false equivalence to pretend Clinton is just as bad as Trump for reasons.

It isn't that its not allowed, its that its patently absurd to try and equate Trump with Clinton, especially as a call to vote for a third party independent of those third parties' actual platforms.
Speaking of whataboutisms, I'd like to take the opportunity to present one of my own.

What about the time Trump was accused of destroying evidence during a lawsuit?

I just feel compelled to bring that up whenever I hear about emails. Remember, if your principled stance on emails means you can't bring yourself to vote for Hillary, it means you can't vote for Trump either.

Usual rules apply, two wrongs don't make a right, etc. - but it's just something to remember.
 
The primary season political news threads on this board were probably the most disheartening and disappointing I've ever seen.

I just saw so much blatant disrespect for anyone who wasn't a Hillary supporter, and I felt legitimately bad for Bernie fans on this board around that time. It started out slow but in the mid-to-late primaries it was just totally gross.

Any attempts at conversation were drowned out, and there are many posters I now see who I saw during those threads who I have a blatant distaste for. Not that any of this matters in the long run, and I personally can't wait for Hillary to take office, but man, what an ugly look that for this forum in those threads.

That said, Neogaf still remains one of the most open minded forums on the web in my opinion. There are clearly many individuals who do well/are popular that do not share the broad majorities opinions, and as long as its not blatantly disrespectful, almost any topic can be broached (if gone about the correct way).

I agree, in part. Back in the day I had a few Hillary supporters on ignore, I just got so frustrated with their constant barrage on Sander's and his supporters. Like it went beyond hate.

I'm cool with most of them now, maybe only one or two still irk me, but, I just can't care much anymore, because we're all in agreement about Trump and the danger he is.
 
nZkxgDX.jpg

"legendary" ;p

All her life she has only known canned gas station beer. You can tell she's into high gravity and four loco and shit.
 
Personally I think Hilary is a liar and has too many skeletons in her closet and coming from Haiti has changed my entire perspective of her.

Americans yall have it hard. Choose between a bigot and a liar.

That's not hard at all even if true. I have lied before. I haven't however been a bigot.

I would vote for somebody caught lying. I would never vote for a bigot.
 
Personally I think Hilary is a liar and has too many skeletons in her closet and coming from Haiti has changed my entire perspective of her.

Americans yall have it hard. Choose between a bigot and a liar.

What 8 Years of Senate Votes Reveal About Clinton
http://www.rollcall.com/news/hawkings/8-years-senate-votes-reveal-clinton
Roll calls suggest she's what she says she is: a liberal with a centrist tinge

The eight years Clinton spent in Congress produced an ocean of information that might help predict how her presidency would look. For the undecided in the electorate, there may be nothing more useful than parsing her voting record as the junior Democratic senator from New York.

In the main, the 2,364 roll call votes she cast between 2001 and 2008 reflect a center-left and slightly hawkish ideology that’s quite comparable to the way she’s been representing herself as a candidate in 2016. She voted with today’s Democratic mainstream far more often than not, but she strayed from party orthodoxy just frequently enough to create space on her liberal flank.

DNC 2016: Truth-O-Metering Hillary Clinton’s Acceptance Speech
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/07/29/dnc-2016-truth-o-metering-hillary-clinton-s-acceptance-speech.html
From the economy to the Dallas shootings, Clinton’s speech was mostly true and accurate—unlike Trump’s.

Politifact’s Scorecards For Clinton, Kaine Versus Trump, Pence Should Make Every Republican Cry
http://addictinginfo.org/2016/07/24/politifacts-scorecards-for-clinton-kaine-versus-trump-pence-should-make-every-republican-cry/
Politifact, which Republicans revile because they think facts are pesky, annoying things to be ignored, put out a scorecard with the ratings of 27 statements Tim Kaine has made. It turns out that he has more statements rated True and Mostly True than he does Half True, Mostly False, and False put together. He has no Pants On Fire ratings at all.

Hillary, on the other hand, has more True and Mostly True statements than she does Half True, Mostly False, False and Pants On Fire all together, just like her chosen running mate. These two are a good team just on that basis.

In other words, we have two presidential tickets that illustrate Republican honesty versus Democratic honesty, and Democratic honesty wins hands down. Facts don’t lie, and unfortunately for the GOP, facts have a liberal bias.

This may shock you: Hillary Clinton is fundamentally honest
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/mar/28/hillary-clinton-honest-transparency-jill-abramson
For decades she’s been portrayed as a Lady Macbeth involved in nefarious plots, branded as “a congenital liar” and accused of covering up her husband’s misconduct, from Arkansas to Monica Lewinsky. Some of this is sexist caricature. Some is stoked by the “Hillary is a liar” videos that flood Facebook feeds. Some of it she brings on herself by insisting on a perimeter or “zone of privacy” that she protects too fiercely. It’s a natural impulse, given the level of scrutiny she’s attracted, more than any male politician I can think of.

I would be “dead rich”, to adapt an infamous Clinton phrase, if I could bill for all the hours I’ve spent covering just about every “scandal” that has enveloped the Clintons. As an editor I’ve launched investigations into her business dealings, her fundraising, her foundation and her marriage. As a reporter my stories stretch back to Whitewater. I’m not a favorite in Hillaryland. That makes what I want to say next surprising.

Hillary Clinton is fundamentally honest and trustworthy.

...

The connection between money and action is often fuzzy. Many investigative articles about Clinton end up “raising serious questions” about “potential” conflicts of interest or lapses in her judgment. Of course, she should be held accountable. It was bad judgment, as she has said, to use a private email server. It was colossally stupid to take those hefty speaking fees, but not corrupt. There are no instances I know of where Clinton was doing the bidding of a donor or benefactor.

As for her statements on issues, Politifact, a Pulitzer prize-winning fact-checking organization, gives Clinton the best truth-telling record of any of the 2016 presidential candidates. She beats Sanders and Kasich and crushes Cruz and Trump, who has the biggest “pants on fire” rating and has told whoppers about basic economics that are embarrassing for anyone aiming to be president. (He falsely claimed GDP has dropped the last two quarters and claimed the national unemployment rate was as high as 35%).

Hillary Clinton, Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump compared via politifact:

We aren't choosing between a bigot and a liar. We are choosing between a bigot and a liar and Hillary Clinton. It really is not that difficult a choice, I assure you.
 
This isn't an election where I feel like I'm voting for the person I like the most. I'm voting for the person I dislike the least and that is Hillary.
 
Smack-talking Hillary Clinton is like smack-talking your boss for the way he plays favorites even though he just kept your entire team from getting laid off.
 
The primary season political news threads on this board were probably the most disheartening and disappointing I've ever seen.

I just saw so much blatant disrespect for anyone who wasn't a Hillary supporter, and I felt legitimately bad for Bernie fans on this board around that time. It started out slow but in the mid-to-late primaries it was just totally gross.

Any attempts at conversation were drowned out, and there are many posters I now see who I saw during those threads who I have a blatant distaste for. Not that any of this matters in the long run, and I personally can't wait for Hillary to take office, but man, what an ugly look that for this forum in those threads.

That said, Neogaf still remains one of the most open minded forums on the web in my opinion. There are clearly many individuals who do well/are popular that do not share the broad majorities opinions, and as long as its not blatantly disrespectful, almost any topic can be broached (if gone about the correct way).
I had the same reaction but for different reasons. I saw a lot of sexism that people got away with because it was political discussion. People who said sexist shit and thought it was okay because "Hillary was so much worse than Bernie". People giving surrogates who said sexist shit leeway because those surrogates supported Bernie Sanders. People who posted links to Washington Times, Breitbart, right wing sites because they had material portraying Hillary in a bad light. A guy who was really happy with Bill Clinton but hated Hillary because "she thinks it's her turn". Another guy who called the Planned Parenthood endorsement "reverse sexism". A guy who lives in the Netherlands said that it's okay to steal her campaign's data, because Hillary is so evil it's only right to steal her shit. A guy who said he knows all about Hillary's character based on how she chose to handle her marriage with Bill Clinton. Endless crap about how she's unlikeable, and the age old accusation of a woman being a liar.

Moreover, at the end of the primary, most of those people did nothing but whine about how they and Sanders were victimized on GAF, without ever acknowledging their own sexism.

If there was something that was ugly in that discussion, it was not the piling on Bernie Sanders.
 
This isn't an election where I feel like I'm voting for the person I like the most. I'm voting for the person I dislike the least and that is Hillary.

Well whatever works. Maybe she'll grow on people if she's a good president. I used to just think Obama was alright. Now I think he is amazing.
 
My main issue with Hillary is this. You always look for something you can identify with in a candidate. For the average middle or lower class voters, there is no connection. Nothing to make you look at Hillary and say "I want to vote for her, she knows where I come from." I know that can be true with a lot of politicians, but many of them will try to find some ground to stand with the common folk on.....Hillary has none.
 
My main issue with Hillary is this. You always look for something you can identify with in a candidate. For the average middle or lower class voters, there is no connection. Nothing to make you look at Hillary and say "I want to vote for her, she knows where I come from." I know that can be true with a lot of politicians, but many of them will try to find some ground to stand with the common folk on.....Hillary has none.


I don't know, being a career woman politician couldn't (wasn't) have always been easy. Yet despite the challenges, she held high positions and will now be President.

I admire her for basically winning at a 200 year old game against her favor.

More to the point, she has faced struggles, as too have I
 
Damn, I could have just quoted you and that post.
Hah, same to you, good fact-checking posts earlier.

I'm tired of the "Hillary is a liar" myth, it's so pervasive though, even among people who admit they'll vote for her. She's no more a liar than any other politician, maybe even less so.
 
What if Hillary Clinton has done or said some bad stuff?


Can she not do some good?

I can't really think of anything really negative for the American people that could come out of her being president.
 
Hah, same to you, good fact-checking posts earlier.

I'm tired of the "Hillary is a liar" myth, it's so pervasive though, even among people who admit they'll vote for her. She's no more a liar than any other politician, maybe even less so.

But she is a woman. Lying is not a good look for a woman. Well, maybe if she was a 20 year old hottie it would be alright.
 
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