I would add that many Jewish men in France avoiding wearing their kippah outside of the home or synagogue simply because the security situation is so tenuous.
I can't believe someone actually thinks Muslims aren't discriminated against in Europe. Like, have you turned on your television or read a newspaper or go on Neogaf the last 10-15 years?
Islam is specifically about imposing Qurans values on people.
It's not "the religion of peace" because of the peace it spreads, but it is supposed to bring peace to people by imposing the same values.
Muslims in Europe aren't really discriminated against. However, Atheists and Christians are in pretty much all of Muslim countries.
As of now, atheists are a lot rarer on earth than muslims, so why exactly should we protect and support this religion?
Okay, Niqab or Chadar isn't a requirement in Islam anyway, and neither are the women in Burqinis swimming with them. Your argument is chiefly with 'hiding' as you put it, because in your view anyone wearing modest clothes is an extremist and has no place an a secular French society and it's norms. That's what I got from your post. If your problem is with Niqab, Chador or Burqa, it has nothing to do with wearing Burqinis on a beach which is what my thread is about.
I assume it's one of these countries I wouldn't want my western democracy to use as a standard for human rights.
Nevermind the part where when visiting a place of worship, it's fairly common and reasonable to have a dress code. That a church or mosque would dictate me whatever their definition of modesty is seems pretty normal, they don't owe me shit (I'm saying this as an atheist who visits a lot of churches for cultural purposes).
Edit : I just googled the pic, it's apparently from Dubai. Yeah, that's a measuring stick I'd rather avoid.
So dumb to enforce these types of dress codes. I am not Muslim but I actually wear similar beach attire (full suit with hood) to avoid skin damage / cancer (family history).
Muslims not being discriminated against in the EU is ludicrous. They are constantly part of the populist narrative of right wing parties and people are simply uneducated when it comes to the religion.
Few people would even know Sunnites and Shiites exist, not to mention the differences.
I would add that many Jewish men in France avoiding wearing their kippah outside of the home or synagogue simply because the security situation is so tenuous.
It's stupid. I understand it given France's particular vulnerability to terrorism and the growing public unrest as a result, but if there was ever a time NOT to prove religious extremists right, this was it. You're just going to marginalize those peaceful minorities further and embolden those who are against them.
I'm sure the right wing rise hasn't anything to do with islam or muslims being discrimnated against at all. Heck, who said that they were discriminated against even?
/a big fat S. Holy shit how some people are so ignorant
It's tricky cause you don't want to limit someone's freedom but you don't want certain oppressive acts or ideas to wander free. I don't want to be the one who makes that decision.
If someone was going to the beaches anyway, then why ban an option for them?
If someone was only going to the beaches if they had access to the burkini, then regardless of what you think about it itself, that person won't be going anymore. I'm sure that will be sooooo helpful in reducing the influence of conservative Islam, by limiting interaction with other people, right?
-Straightening your hair is a fashion statement
Covering your hair with a veil or skin with burkini is a religious statement.
It says : a holy book claims that women should be "modest in their appearance" in order not to tempt men. For a country that believes in equality between men and women, this is should not be ok.
-Nuns are tolerated
France is a Christian country.
Its history is christian and for many centuries, France was know as the catholic church eldest daughter. Why should it not fight for its beliefs and say that Islam is not ok?
Muslim countries such as Saudi Arabia, Quatar or Iran have no problem fighting for their beliefs and trying to impose them on others.
Something that's not said much but men should also cover themselves like we shouldn't wear shorts that sit above are knees and that we we shouldn't sit shirtless. Also men and women are considered equal in Islam don't mix up Arab culture and Islam actually Islam was actually progressive it stayed that women must also learn and study and be knowledgeable it staed that she inherents an equal amount of money if her husband dies and that she should be treated as an equal to hetrhusband and this was all a thousand years ago when such things were unheard of I can go on but I'm at work
Find the most conservative Muslim woman you know and please, please just try and say the hijab is even remotely comparable to the general "be modest" and "maybe a beard" guys get. This shit isn't something you'll get away with saying to any Muslim women, or anyone that's not utterly deluded regardless of whether they wear hijab or not, or how conservative it is.
1st and 2nd question here are utter crap.
I don't really care about people wearing hijab, even if you believe it's mandatory/recommended/only cultural etc, you're in over you head if you think it's in your place to judge that. I'll always oppose shit like this though.
It's not in my place nor yours to care about why my sisters are ok with wearing hijab. People do it for varying reasons. Yes, being forced into it is one, but there are other reasons I've seen:
1) Want to be more religious - you might find this bs, but I really don't care. It's the same way you might find someone who fasts a ton outside of Ramadan (or even during) to be stupid, but that's their personal decision that you don't get a say in
2) Want to represent Islam - bans like this make this bigger too. I know people who started wearing hijab post-9/11 specifically because of the atmosphere towards Muslims.
This happens in families where the elder don't wear hijab too. This is coming from my sisters' experience here, but they've said that there is a big difference between when they visit the countries where hijab is more common or even mandatory, and them wearing it in the USA, because in the 2nd, you're purposely putting yourself out there. Honestly, even for the people that think hijab should be observed, this is the biggest argument against the bs about it being mandatory. There are sometimes immigrants whose parents were in the upper-class back home, where hijab fell out of style (sign of being backwards), but the kids wear it because it means something completely different here.
Serious question:
What were Islamic countries great cultural, scientific, technical achievements over the course of the past three centuries?
Most of the technology and science we enjoy in our modern world comes from the fact that Europe, led by French thinkers, broke away from the dogmas imposed by religions.
Is it so shocking to admit that some cultures our countries can be more advanced than others in some respect?
Medieval Europe was a shithole compared to the glory of the Badgad califate in the 9th century but things have changed a lot since then.
The Ottoman, Mughal, and Safavid Empires? And, iirc, the idea of Ottomans just being "in decline" is considered over-generalizing, outdated, and isn't really favored among historians that specialize in Ottoman history.
It's more complex. France is culturally Christian but at the same time, it's deeply secularist.
France spent hundred of years trying to get rid of religion in the public space, including Christianity. A political candidate simply mentioning god would be committing political suicide in France.You have to realize that the criticism of Muslims is nothing compared to what the Catholic church got in the early 20th century. When we see American people swearing on the Bible, it's making us cringe.
We spent hundred of years trying to get rid of religion and suddenly you have Muslims, who are trying to bring it back and who seem to defy everything France stands for. It's like being a democracy and having people insisting on going back to monarchy. it's driving us nuts and it might be precisely the point.
To be fair, there is a bit of karmic justice in all this.
France brought all its Muslim population to rebuild the country after WW2 and treated them like shit with no plan for long term integration.
Sixty years later, surprise, we've got a big problem on our hands and I don't see a clean way out of this mess.
Deep down, it has nothing to with religion.
It's just good old fashioned revenge and rivalry between Arab countries rich with oil and their former colonial masters.
And it's nice how you just generalize that Muslims are trying to bring religion back into politics, as if they're just one massive hive-mind. And no, I don't see hijab in schools or burkinis as some insidious attempt to bring religion back into the French political sphere, sorry.
American people swearing on the Bible is completely harmless, so honestly, why do you even care?
Islam is specifically about imposing Qurans values on people.
It's not "the religion of peace" because of the peace it spreads, but it is supposed to bring peace to people by imposing the same values.
Muslims in Europe aren't really discriminated against. However, Atheists and Christians are in pretty much all of Muslim countries.
As of now, atheists are a lot rarer on earth than muslims, so why exactly should we protect and support this religion?
What next, institutional discrimination in the USA doesn't exist? We're not talking about other countries here, we're talking about the west, Europe specifically, and then France from there. Muslim countries have nothing to do with this.
As to your question: you should protect and support MUSLIMS (notice the poster talked about the people there) because discrimination is generally considered a bad thing? It's sort of obvious, isn't it?
Are Muslims discriminated against by law? Aren't they able to build mosques? Have halal food? Are they getting constantly searched by the police or shot by the police?
Do you not know how dogwhistling works? Or stuff like voter fraud laws, economic policies that disadvantage the poor, the War on Drugs, etc., are they not examples of laws that disproportionately affect and are directed towards minority communities
Also, hijab ban in schools and public offices. That's absolutely discrimination by law. Plus the uptick in racial profiling.
Maybe you're confusing discrimination with failure to integrate.
I've only met a few Muslims from France.
One was a PDF who married a Jewish woman.
An other was from Mauritius.
They never complained of discrimination.
Here in Ottawa, Canada, my department keeps laying people off and the only guy we've hired in 7 year was a Muslim from Bangladesh who got his degree here and aced an admission test before returning home to apply for immigration. He had his little carpet in his cube and it was a pain to know when to talk to him so as not to find him kneeling in front of his desk. Unfortunately, he left to go work for Microsoft. I'm sure people think we discriminate here as well.
You knowing 3 muslims in your life and they not complaining some person they met (nothing I can see about you being pretty close to them that I can see) doesn't mean it doesn't exist, in both a subliminal and external manner
Sorry, but I want to live in a secular world, and France is the closest any modern country has come to achieving that. I think maintaining a secular social solidarity requires a ban of any religious attire outside of the home or place of worship (I'm not advocating for an actual ban on religion). That includes the burkah, niqab, and even the hijab, as well the Jewish kippah, a Sikh turban, or any other religious garb you can think of.
That's the price of admission to a secular society.
I get that it sounds like a fantasy, especially to anyone who hails from the US, where swearing on a bible and invoking god in every political speech is standard fare. France does things differently, and has the right to protect their values.
It was the country where a black, gay man in the 1950's by the name of James Baldwin went and found a welcoming home, free from the religious and racial confines of the "One Nation Under God". Over the years, many other artists, writers, and thinkers have also praised France as a model secular society. I think it's worth protecting.
You can have any religion in France without any problem, it just need to stay home or in religious cult places.
Strong and highly visible religious signs should be banned anywhere in public places. Keeping an exception for priests/imams and equivalent.
France is not an atheist country, just a country who thinks religion is a personal belief and as such should stay private. Showing it in a public place and it's not personal anymore, problems can arise that are more important than a fucking swimsuit length. It gives the possibility to compare, to judge, to start mixing religion and code of conduct ( she's in a burkini she's a good girl, she's in a bikini she's a bitch)
And it's not like there is no precedent. Nearly ALL of north african countries have changed , and rather quickly, for a retrograded view of the woman ( and man by the way, an animal who can't control himself) It started like that, with women who wanted to do it. It ended with women forced to follow to be "good girls" with social pressure.
You can already see some changes in Nice or cannes with French algerians insulting people who are kissing in public ... in freaking France !
This decision from cannes mayor is totally illegal from a legal point of view, but it's clearly a view that is shared by many here. We fought not to have any religious pressure in our society, and that can work only if public places are exempt of religion.
( and please don't compare a birkini and a small necklace under your shirt ...)
I get that it sounds like a fantasy, especially to anyone who hails from the US, where swearing on a bible and invoking god in every political speech is standard fare. France does things differently, and has the right to protect their values.
It was the country where a black, gay man in the 1950's by the name of James Baldwin went and found a welcoming home, free from the religious and racial confines of the "One Nation Under God". Over the years, many other artists, writers, and thinkers have also praised France as a model secular society. I think it's worth protecting.
You can have any religion in France without any problem, it just need to stay home or in religious cult places.
Strong and highly visible religious signs should be banned anywhere in public places. Keeping an exception for priests/imams and equivalent.
France is not an atheist country, just a country who thinks religion is a personal belief and as such should stay private. Showing it in a public place and it's not personal anymore, problems can arise that are more important than a fucking swimsuit length. It gives the possibility to compare, to judge, to start mixing religion and code of conduct ( she's in a burkini she's a good girl, she's in a bikini she's a bitch)
And it's not like there is no precedent. Nearly ALL of north african countries have changed , and rather quickly, for a retrograded view of the woman ( and man by the way, an animal who can't control himself) It started like that, with women who wanted to do it. It ended with women forced to follow to be "good girls" with social pressure.
You can already see some changes in Nice or cannes with French algerians insulting people who are kissing in public ... in freaking France !
This decision from cannes mayor is totally illegal from a legal point of view, but it's clearly a view that is shared by many here. We fought not to have any religious pressure in our society, and that can work only if public places are exempt of religion.
( and please don't compare a birkini and a small necklace under your shirt ...)
Why is it illegal then? If this law is such a shinning example of French secularism you'd think it'd be perfectly legal then and not in danger of being shot down by your courts? Honestly the defense force for this law and you guys saying it represents French values makes me think worse of your country.
There's actually a part of France that has never become secular due to historical reasons: the Alsace-Moselle region in the east. Curiously, the lack of secularist and laicite laws there hasn't led to the total collapse of society or invasion of religious nutheads in the local political landscape.
I would add that many Jewish men in France avoiding wearing their kippah outside of the home or synagogue simply because the security situation is so tenuous.
But it seems it is pretty much the European Christian majority countries expected to be bastions of secularity and religious expression no? If tomorrow a country like Greece and it's citizens which are like 97% Christians stated they were a Christian only country, you would be outraged. Secularism and religious expression are actually antithetical to one another when you think about it deep down.
But it seems it is pretty much the European Christian majority countries expected to be bastions of secularity and religious expression no? If tomorrow a country like Greece and it's citizens which are like 97% Christians stated they were a Christian only country, you would be outraged. Secularism and religious expression are actually antithetical to one another when you think about it deep down.
Why is it illegal then? If this law is such a shinning example of French secularism you'd think it'd be perfectly legal then and not in danger of being shot down by your courts? Honestly the defense force for this law and you guys saying it represents French values makes me think worse of your country.
Laws change with time and evolve. Ostentatory religious garments were not illegal in public schools before 2004, they are now, and it's clearly accepted and agreed on for the vast majority. It was quite easier to understand that religion has no place in teaching.
And that's why we have private schools for the ones who don't.
And why this law came only in 2004 ? because we didn't have any burqa problematics before. It's something that is quite new and as such laws adapted.
Holidays are our religion haha. A lot of people don't even know what is l'Ascension, they just are happy with another holiday. Christianity is our history, it doesn't mean that our churches are full.
Laws change with time and evolve. Ostentatory religious garments were not illegal in public schools before 2004, they are now, and it's clearly accepted and agreed on for the vast majority.
And that's why we have private schools for the ones who don't.
Well this law is still illegal so clearly the majority don't think so. Also if you think it's okay for a suppose secular society to dicriminatantly target a specific religion then guess what? Your society isn't secular.
Holidays are our religion haha. A lot of people don't even know what is l'Ascension, they just are happy with another holiday. Christianity is our history, it doesn't mean that our churches are full.
To answer your question, yes that is perfectly fine regardless of if it's in the context of this thread's topic,independently on its own, or if you think that it's somehow objectionable. I would love for you to explain how you think this is relevant to anything, especially the topic of this thread.
But it seems it is pretty much the European Christian majority countries expected to be bastions of secularity and religious expression no? If tomorrow a country like Greece and it's citizens which are like 97% Christians stated they were a Christian only country, you would be outraged. Secularism and religious expression are actually antithetical to one another when you think about it deep down.
No I don't think they're antithetical, why do you think so. Separation of state and church and allowing for freedom of religious expression(even ones that aren't majority religion) are opposite sides of the same coin.
I assume it's one of these countries I wouldn't want my western democracy to use as a standard for human rights.
Nevermind the part where when visiting a place of worship, it's fairly common and reasonable to have a dress code. That a church or mosque would dictate me whatever their definition of modesty is seems pretty normal, they don't owe me shit (I'm saying this as an atheist who visits a lot of churches for cultural purposes).
No, they aren't. Secularism means you don't discriminate against religions and try to accommodate them to the extent that it doesn't affect the rights of others (and no, a person doesn't have a right to not see people wearing religious symbols you don't agree with; that's none of that person's business). Which is what we do in Canada, and it's worked well.
Holidays are our religion haha. A lot of people don't even know what is l'Ascension, they just are happy with another holiday. Christianity is our history, it doesn't mean that our churches are full.
When this poor priest was killed recently, they were 2 persons following the service, 2. Our churches are empty. Church have to recruit priests from other coutries. Describing France as still heavily catholic is just plain incorrect.
Er, yeah, it is, seeing as it's obviously in response to a particular religion that is more present in France and happens to have, in some sects, religious garments of a nature atypical to France's ideas about clothes and religious garments.
Because it clearly is target at a specific race. It applying to all religions is a easy way to deflect. Funny how that law passed when France's Muslim population started to increase significantly.
Also I was referring to the Burkini ban which is inarguable tarted at muslims.
Because it clearly is target at a specific race. It applying to all religions is a easy way to deflect. Funny how that law passed when France's Muslim population started to increase significantly.
Also I was referring to the Burkini ban which is inarguable tarted at muslims.
It's pretty simple. I think it's a poor idea to allow people to hide their identity in public and to me gives the impression that the person doesn't want to be identified. Whether it's wearing a Burka, a balaclava or a hoodie + scarf. All the same to me.
Er, yeah, it is, seeing as it's obviously in response to a particular religion that is more present in France and happens to have, in some sects, religious garments of a nature atypical to France's ideas about clothes and religious garments.
Because it clearly is target at a specific race. It applying to all religions is a easy way to deflect. Funny how that law passed when France's Muslim population started to increase significantly.
ALso I was referring to the Burkini ban which is inarguable tarted at muslims.
Because muslim radicalism is the problem today in France and the ideas that goes with it, not just the garment, but i think and clearly hope that if it was a christiankini, or a jewkini, because of radicalism in another religion and with the same ideas attached to it, it would have been the same.
By the way it's totally false, france Muslim population didn't increase significantly these past years , it was at 8% since quite a long time. It's muslim radicalism who increased. We never had this kind of problem before.
I can't speak of the intentions of that GAFer but very early on in this topic I proposed that personally I could see reason for high security places to ban full face coverings. Or at least have the ability to ask for removal/search. Such as banks and airports.
If you nullify all use of CCTV you potentially become a security risk. As I said in that post a bank isn't going to be happy with someone sporting a balaclava and hoodie and then just pleading it is what they want to wear. Again, these are specific high security areas, not outright public spaces.
I'm not a fan of parents indoctrinating kids into their religion but yeah it's a pretty universal thing and I think the only way to reduce it is to be more inclusive. Let's say this ban goes through -- what do we expect the outcome to be? You think muslim women will just wear a regular bikini? My bet is they'll just stop going to the beach. Now you've further isolated them, which is simply counter-productive.
Integrated, modern societies are the best way to reduce religiousness and increase secularism. Europe has done a poor job integrating their muslim populations -- they end up with what are basically ghettos that are highly segregated and often have high poverty rates. When you segregate communities and a lack of support allows poverty to decimate livelihoods and socioeconomic mobility, it creates problems -- this goes for all races and religions.
Yeah, this sums my thoughts upon hearing about this ban. It's a regressive move for sure. If the mayor thinks the ban will encourage integration then he is wrong. It will only further enhance any existing feelings of alienation among Muslim communities.
I can understand the burqa and face veil bans, but this just looks like a pointless move to score political points.
It's pretty simple. I think it's a poor idea to allow people to hide their identity in public and to me gives the impression that the person doesn't want to be identified. Whether it's wearing a Burka, a balaclava or a hoodie + scarf. All the same to me.
I can't speak of the intentions of that GAFer but very early on in this topic I proposed that personally I could see reason for high security places to ban full face coverings. Or at least have the ability to ask for removal/search. Such as banks and airports.
If you nullify all use of CCTV you potentially become a security risk. As I said in that post a bank isn't going to be happy with someone sporting a balaclava and hoodie and then just pleading it is what they want to wear. Again, these are specific high security areas, not outright public spaces.
It's pretty simple. I think it's a poor idea to allow people to hide their identity in public and to me gives the impression that the person doesn't want to be identified. Whether it's wearing a Burka, a balaclava or a hoodie + scarf. All the same to me.
Because muslim radicalism is the problem today in France and the ideas that goes with it, not just the garment, but i think and clearly hope that if it was a christiankini, or a jewkini, because of radicalism in another religion and with the same ideas attached to it, it would have been the same.
By the way it's totally false, france Muslim population didn't increase significantly these past years , it was at 8% since quite a long time. It's muslim radicalism who increased. We never had this kind of problem before.
Yes I know that. France is infamous for how dogshit it is at integrating it's muslim populations. Because you guys never stop to think that maybe, just maybe laws like these only further serve to marginalize them instead of making them feel more welcome.
Yes I know that. France is infamous for how dogshit it is at integrating it's muslim populations. Because you guys never stop to think that maybe, just maybe laws like these only further serve to marginalize them instead of making them feel more welcome.
or maybe, just maybe, the integration problems came from something totally different than that ( France had a shitty integration plan that has nothing to do with these laws, putting foreigners in specific poor suburbs and not mixing them.) and integration problems were there years before this (started in the 70's) and now it's just a question of protecting our own values that are clashing with radicalism ?
And maybe, just maybe, this kind of problem is in full force in nearly all of north african countries too and has nothing to do with marginalization and everything to do with extremism growing in muslim communities ? Or can you explain to me the marginalization in egypt, lybia, algeria and such ?
or maybe, just maybe, the integration problems came from something totally different than that ( France had a shitty integration plan that has nothing to do with these laws, putting foreigners in specific poor suburbs and not mixing them.) and integration problems were there years before this (started in the 70's) and now it's just a question of protecting our own values that are clashing with radicalism ?
And maybe, just maybe, this kind of problem is in full force in nearly all of north african countries too and has again nothing to do with marginalization and everything to do with extremism growing in muslim communities ? Or can you explain to me the marginalization in egypt, lybia, algeria and such ?
I never said laws like these were the only source of integration problems. Clearly there are other factors at play. But laws like these do not help at all. Also what are you refering to with marginalization in egypt, lybia, algeria. All of those countries are muslim majority countries.
