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[Jacobi]

Please tell me that's sarcasm.

You mean because religious diversity is so high in the middle east?

 

[RustyNails]

The only source is the designer itself, who doesn't use any facts for this ridiculous claim. Just an estimate. By the way, there isn't even any photo of a non-muslim looking woman wearing a burkini. Not in this article, or others that also just quote Zanetti.

What if Orthodox jewish women wore one and werent photographed? Or Amish? You cant say lack of evidence is evidence.

 

[Reeks]

You mean because religious diversity is so high in the middle east?

So non 'middle eastern' people 'look less Muslim'?

 

[typist]

Let's just ban clothes in general, they're too dangerous /s

Seriously can't understand the obsession with controlling what people can and cannot wear, just let people be free

 

[Jacobi]

So non 'middle eastern' people 'look less Muslim'?

If someone is caucasian or asian, it is likely they aren't muslim. Do you think that's wrong?

 

[4Tran]

I didn't say that a person forced them, I said Islam forces them. Islam tells them to keep their beauty to their husband and close family, and hide it from everyone else.

Obviously they do it because they want, because they think that makes god happy, and their families happy, and if they don't then god will punish them in some way.

We are talking about Islam now, but I know about Opus Dei, which is an catholic organization that also treats women as slaves, serving the priests, doing their laundry, cooking for them, etc... Because supposedly god said so. That should be looked into also.

The head coverings do not come directly from Islam's rules. The largest Islamic country in the world is Indonesia, and these coverings are rarely seen there. You can see similar situations in Muslim-majority countries outside of the Middle East and Central Asia.

If someone is caucasian or asian, it is likely they aren't muslim. Do you think that's wrong?

Most Muslims are Asian though.

 

[Jonm1010]

I can't decide for you, and you can't decide for me. But the law (or the mayor or whatever) decides for everyone. You can't ride a motorcycle in Europe without wearing a helmet. Maybe I want to ride without a helmet and feeling the wind in my face seems like a fair retribution for increasing my chances of getting hurt in case of an accident. But the government decided it's best for me to always wear a helmet. And if I don't I will be stopped by the police, get a ticket, etc. Fair enough. This is the same.

Nah.

 

[excelsiorlef]

The only source is the designer itself, who doesn't use any facts for this ridiculous claim. Just an estimate. By the way, there isn't even any photo of a non-muslim looking woman wearing a burkini. Not in this article, or others that also just quote Zanetti.

So basically a business owner is just lying and your proof is your feels and the fact that goah darnit you just know better than the woman.


She designed the thing I think she can speak best to her goals for its creation and design.

 

[RustyNails]

If someone is caucasian or asian, it is likely they aren't muslim. Do you think that's wrong?

Dude just stop.

 

[Jonm1010]

If someone is caucasian or asian, it is likely they aren't muslim. Do you think that's wrong?

Have you heard of Indonesia?

 

[Jacobi]

So basically a business owner is just lying and your proof is your feels and the fact that goah darnit you just know better than the woman.


She designed the thing I think she can speak best to her goals for its creation and design.

This is a middle-class enterprise at best, so I doubt the that seemingly baseless information. By the way, her own website says this is for muslim women, so what are we discussing?

https://ahiida.com/pages.php?pageid=2

Most Muslims are Asian though.

Yes, but most Asians aren't muslim.

Again, is there any proof to the ridiculous claim of that burkini designer? Anything?

 

[4Tran]

Yes, but most Asians aren't muslim.

Let me put it this way: Asia accounts for over 60% of the world's Muslims.

 

[Jacobi]

Let me put it this way: Asia accounts for over 60% of the world's Muslims.

That doesn't change my claim.

But again to clarify: I wrote "probably not middle-eastern", because I haven't seen one article about this topic with a non-middle eastern woman wearing a burkini, even though it is claimed there were thousands sold with a high percentage to non-muslim women.

Where are those non-muslim women sporting those burkinis?

 

[4Tran]

That doesn't change my claim.

But again to clarify: I wrote "probably not middle-eastern", because I haven't seen one article about this topic with a non-middle eastern woman wearing a burkini, even though it is claimed there were thousands sold with a high percentage to non-muslim women.

Where are those non-muslim women sporting those burkinis?

Who knows what the numbers actually are? But you should know better than to make assumptions on who the buyers of the burkini are. A lot of the time, our prejudices aren't borne out by reality.

 

[Jacobi]

Who knows what the numbers actually are? But you should know better than to make assumptions on who the buyers of the burkini are. A lot of the time, our prejudices aren't borne out by reality.

I know how to judge sources and if the only source is an assumption, it's a bad source

 

[4Tran]

I know how to judge sources and if the only source is an assumption, it's a bad source

The proof may not be strong, but I don't think that you have anywhere near the data to dismiss it out of hand.

 

[Reeks]

That doesn't change my claim.

But again to clarify: I wrote "probably not middle-eastern", because I haven't seen one article about this topic with a non-middle eastern woman wearing a burkini, even though it is claimed there were thousands sold with a high percentage to non-muslim women.

Where are those non-muslim women sporting those burkinis?

I was going to post a picture but felt it inappropriate. Literally Google "burkini" and look at the 4th picture. Asian woman. Is she 'non-Muslim looking' enough for you? Smfh.

 

[Jacobi]

I was going to post a picture but felt it inappropriate. Literally Google "burkini" and look at the 4th picture. Asian woman. Is she 'non-Muslim looking' enough for you? Smfh.

I wrote "probably not middle-eastern", because I haven't seen one article about this topic with a non-middle eastern woman wearing a burkini, even though it is claimed there were thousands sold with a high percentage to non-muslim women.

So you want to show me a picture of an Indonesian woman now to prove there are thousands sold to non-muslim women?

You guys are really doing the most to support a bullshit article

 

[Reeks]

So you want to show me a picture of an Indonesian woman now to prove there are thousands sold to non-muslim women?

You guys are really doing the most to support a bullshit article

Nope. My problem was that you needed a picture of someone who doesn't look like a Muslim as evidence and then went on to say that 'non middle eastern' women look less Muslim. That is what we've been talking about.


Edit: did anyone stop to think about the fact that banning burkinis means that some people may not be able to enjoy the beach, you know the population of people who the ban is supposedly 'protecting'? Let's limit what they can wear following in suit of their alleged oppresors because that's really instrumental for inclusion.

 

[Maz]

You mean because religious diversity is so high in the middle east?

You do realize that Indonesia is the country with the largest number of Muslims (Indonesia has ~210M the whole middle east including north Africa has ~317M), Or the fact that there are more Muslims outside the middle east than in it.

What looks middle eastern btw? Because Syrians don't look like people from yemen or oman who don't look like Iranian. Gulf countries have more common look with india/Pakistan than Egypt for example.

 

[Reeks]

You do realize that Indonesia is the country with the largest number of Muslims (Indonesia has ~210M the whole middle east including north Africa has ~317M), Or the fact that there are more Muslims outside the middle east than in it.

But that doesn't fit with my preconceived notions of how Muslim women look!

 

[Jonm1010]

So you want to show me a picture of an Indonesian woman now to prove there are thousands sold to non-muslim women?

You guys are really doing the most to support a bullshit article

Do you actually have a point at all?

Serious question.

There is literally no good justification for this law. Even as an atheist this is fucking stupid and authoritarian tripe.

It's not liberating woman anymore then banning two piece bikinis would liberate woman from feeling pressure to western social norms about ideal feminine bodies. It's cut from the same cloth. If a person is being forced to wear a certain garment against her will, or cultural pressures are pushing her in that direction, that is where the problem is, not in the garment itself. Banning it is not going to produce the desired outcome of changing that culture, if that is the root issue that is.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

A kasher store is a specialized store, not a convenience store, there was a public lease by the "hlm" organism for this store.
It was a public action to give people in a poor neighbourhood a grocery store
It was own by fran prix and sold to a man who stealthly change it to a halal store


The separate hours for jewish women in some paris pools is not normal and discriminatory

So we are speaking about a specific case, not the general issue to have a grocery store that won't sell alcohol nor pork. This have nothing to do with secularism, a merchant should not being forced to sell something he don't want to sell.

If a women want to go to the pool without men gazing, i don't see how it's discriminatory.
Are gendered bathroom discriminatory? Are women-only gym discriminatory? Are feminist women-only group discriminatory?

 

[MistakenMobius]

If a women want to go to the pool without men gazing, i don't see how it's discriminatory. Are gendered bathroom discriminatory ?

Well depends how transgendered people are allowed to use them...

 

[Morrigan Stark]

And yet there's two decades of France shitting on the Muslim faith every opportunity they get.

And this so-called "shitting" is enough to make you indifferent to terror attacks? Your priorities are wretchedly out of whack.

So basically a business owner is just lying and your proof is your feels and the fact that goah darnit you just know better than the woman.

I have to ask, though, how would that owner even know? Does she ask every buyer or include a religion checkbox on every order form?

 

[Cat Party]

Lmao this thread is nothing but Islamaphobes spouting crap, getting owned, doubling down, and then bailing on the thread.

 

[excelsiorlef]

And this so-called "shitting" is enough to make you indifferent to terror attacks? Your priorities are wretchedly out of whack.


I have to ask, though, how would that owner even know? Does she ask every buyer or include a religion checkbox on every order form?

People collect data, maybe she asks, maybe it's based on region, I don't know but I think until someone can prove that she's lying that I'm juts going to go ahead and trust her since it's her business.

 

[black_13]

Seems like a dumb and discriminatory move.

 

[Mael]

Lmao this thread is nothing but Islamaphobes spouting crap, getting owned, doubling down, and then bailing on the thread.

Looks like French politics all right.

 

[Maz]

Its like some people just cant process the fact that there are people that actually want to wear a hijab, or that they want to go to the beach without wearing something too revealing. These mayors are doing no one a favor, they are just making some womens life more difficult.

 

[DrFurbs]

Great I support this move.

 

[SapientWolf]

Wow. Banning a piece of clothing that is inherently misogynistic is now paternal misogyny.

A piece of clothing is just a piece of clothing. Paternal misogyny is forcing a woman to wear something against her wishes.

 

[DiipuSurotu]

Its like some people just cant process the fact that there are people that actually want to wear a hijab, or that they want to go to the beach without wearing something too revealing. These mayors are doing no one a favor, they are just making some womens life more difficult.

Maybe these people should manifest themselves and organize a demonstration or something. That's what people do in democracies when they want to get heard. That's what people do so the politicians and the media can gauge how numerous they may be.

 

[Maz]

Maybe these people should manifest themselves and organize a demonstration or something. That's what people do in democracies when they want to get heard. That's what people do so the politicians and the media can gauge how numerous they may be.

I dont think thats a good idea right now with how the burkini is being described by politicians as extreme muslim garb (The sad part is that the extremist are also against the burkini). So no the last thing we need right now is a muslim majority demostration, that will be like pouring fuel on fire with how emotions are right now.

 

[parmanu]

I see Burkini as Burka. A symbol of oppressed status of women in Islam.

It is not as if there are only 2 choices, Burkini or Bikini. There are so many other costumes that are available to Muslim women.

 

[paradise_circus]

what will the french government do if female citizens begin to wear whole body neoprene suits with a swimming cape?

 

[Maz]

I see Burkini as Burka. A symbol of oppressed status of women in Islam.

It is not as if there are only 2 choices, Burkini or Bikini. There are so many other costumes that are available to Muslim women.

Google burkini please, the name seems to throw people off what it actually is. Burka is nowhere near as common as people believe and it's more a culture thing than religious, but who knows. Islam mixed with culture, culture adapted Islam it's really hard to draw a line of where something is religious based or culture based. To reiterate burkini is nowhere near what a burka is except in how it's spelled.

 

[Lamel]

I see Burkini as Burka. A symbol of oppressed status of women in Islam.

It is not as if there are only 2 choices, Burkini or Bikini. There are so many other costumes that are available to Muslim women.

Burkini is not a burka for the 10th time.

 

[le-seb]

what will the french government do if female citizens begin to wear whole body neoprene suits with a swimming cape?

It won't care because - once again - the government has nothing to do with those local decrees.
What you see here is just a handful of shitty mayors pulling questionable ordinances out of their asses, just to please their racist electorate.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

It won't care because - once again - the government has nothing to do with those local decrees.
What you see here is just a handful of shitty mayors pulling questionable ordinances out of their asses, just to please their racist electorate.

The french prime minister did support the move, but it's not surprising, since he play with nationalist and borderline racist rhetoric everytime he have the occasion to do so.

He last pearl: "I have a muslim friend and he told me that he is ashamed to be a muslim"
Black Friend argument 2.0

 

[le-seb]

The french prime minister did support the move, but it's not surprising, since he play with nationalist and borderline racist rhetoric everytime he have the occasion to do so.

He last pearl: "I have a muslim friend and he told me that he is ashamed to be a muslim"
Black Friend argument 2.0

How convenient is it to skip his "I don't want muslims to be ashamed anymore" conclusion?

 

[JP_]

did anyone stop to think about the fact that banning burkinis means that some people may not be able to enjoy the beach, you know the population of people who the ban is supposedly 'protecting'? Let's limit what they can wear following in suit of their alleged oppresors because that's really instrumental for inclusion.

I made that point in the other thread when it was just one city.

...I think the only way to reduce [religiousness] is to be more inclusive. Let's say this ban goes through -- what do we expect the outcome to be? You think muslim women will just wear a regular bikini? My bet is they'll just stop going to the beach. Now you've further isolated them, which is simply counter-productive.

Integrated, modern societies are the best way to reduce religiousness and increase secularism. Europe has done a poor job integrating their muslim populations -- they end up with what are basically ghettos that are highly segregated and often have high poverty rates. When you segregate communities and a lack of support allows poverty to decimate livelihoods and socioeconomic mobility, it creates problems -- this goes for all races and religions.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

How convenient is it to skip his "I don't want muslims to be ashamed anymore" conclusion?

Because if you know the character, you know it's a joke. He said last week that hijab represent oppression of women. So what is his plan to get muslims out of shame ? Getting them out of Islam ? Changing their religion ?

 

[Abounder]

France is anti-clerical as hell and the Euro Court of Human Rights backed their previous burqa ban, unsurprising to see some locals extend that to burkinies. Freedom of expression is a different idea across the Atlantic, I don't like the government butting in but that's the Euro way. At least France is friendly to huge protests.

 

[le-seb]

Because if you know the character, you know it's a joke. He said last week that hijab represent oppression of women. So what is his plan to get muslims out of shame ? Getting them out of Islam ? Changing their religion ?

Oh, come on, now.
Most Muslims in France are ashamed for the terror attacks being made in the name of Islam, not for being Muslims.

 

[gutter_trash]

If someone is caucasian or asian, it is likely they aren't muslim. Do you think that's wrong?

What? LOL

Turks and Bosnians are Caucasians.
Indonesians are Asian.

Religion is not a race dude.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

Oh, come on, now.
Most Muslims in France are ashamed for the terror attacks being made in the name of Islam, not for being Muslims.

So how Manuel Walls is actually carrying about muslims sense of dignity while insulting the veil whenever he can ? He even said that veil ban should be extended to the University. He is certainly not a friend of muslims, he is pushing the anti-muslims laws (condemned by Amnesty International) forward.

«Le voile n'est pas un phénomène de mode, c'est un asservissement de la femme.»
"Veil (hijab) is not a fashion phenomena, it's women servitude"

Wow, that very respectful. I feel a lot less ashamed to be a muslim, thanks Valls.

Ps : And it's not only about muslims, his attacks on the gypsy community are just disgusting.

 

[Enco]

Pretty sad how people actually support this.

It's literally only being done as a 'fuck u' move to get back at 'Muslims' after the attacks. No other reason.

Hilarious how people can govern what you wear to the beach. Get real. This is bullshit.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

What? LOL

Turks and Bosnians are Caucasians.
Indonesians are Asian.

Religion is not a race dude.

Like Iran, most of Pakistan, Malaysia, 300 million indians muslims, 100 millions chinese muslims, and...

The Arabs.

Islam is the greatest religion in Asia anyway.

 

[Henkka]

I can somewhat understand laws that prohibit covering your face in public, but this takes it too far

I mean, by what rationale do you ban covering everything except your face on a beach but not anywhere else? It makes no sense.