which bioware dev is trying to start a race war now?
Games ruined by creator's politics
- Thread starter FlyinJ
- Start date
which bioware dev is trying to start a race war now?
Aztechnology
Member
No I didn't realize until now. I thought it meant "office politics" in context.
BossDarkseid
Member
He means Maneev Heir (?), but he's not trying to start a race war. Just baiting GamerGate people. Crudely, but effectively
He means Maneev Heir (?), but he's not trying to start a race war. Just baiting GamerGate people. Crudely, but effectively
oh, maybe the argus can link us to some youtube videos on the issue
Manveer Heir. He has good points about diversity, but he's just going about it the wrong way.
You're saying she had a bad attitude at a Game Jam? No shit, everyone has bad attitudes at Game Jams, because you're on little sleep and on edge. Compound that with the natural types of questions and personalities that would gravitate towards Quinn at such an event, and sorry if I don't feel swayed on her because she was curt or impolite.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
If you think what you have to say about her might be banworthy, then I think I have a good read on what you're going to present. You can't redefine something as politics to suit your needs at the moment.
Your gripes with Quinn's attitude may be 100% valid but that's not what this thread is for, especially if, as you've said, you're actually in agreement with her actual politics, whatever those may be.
As for being ignorant of Gamergate-most things ending with "-gate" aren't pleasant.
but like...what exactly is he doing to constitute "trying to start a race war"
Back while the weird edits and censorship in #FE were popping up (removing a girl's pelvic bones in a cutscene, black flames over cleavage in one scene, gone the next, poorly edited additions, re-recorded audio, etc.), Robert at Zeboyd Games and I had a fairly large disagreement about it.
I was highly against what I saw as censorship, he was strongly for what he saw as localization. I decided I wasn't going to be supporting Cosmic Star Heroine, as I strongly disagreed with Robert's views on the subject, and got quite a lot of flack for it. The game certainly wasn't ruined for me, I just lost interest due to ideological differences.
I was highly against what I saw as censorship, he was strongly for what he saw as localization. I decided I wasn't going to be supporting Cosmic Star Heroine, as I strongly disagreed with Robert's views on the subject, and got quite a lot of flack for it. The game certainly wasn't ruined for me, I just lost interest due to ideological differences.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
Man look
Something like "start a race war" needs to have some heavy receipts
This is true. Good point
Making games where non-white characters, women, and lgbt people are given important roles in the story?
FYI, it had nothing to do with gamergate, feminism, inclusivity, or anything along those lines.
Good point
While obviously your prerogative, you do know that Robert isn't the artist at Zeboyd, right? Bill is.
uomoartificiale
Member
I think some time has passed so that I can finally voice this dangerous opinion.
I simply found Zoe Quinn an insufferable wanker until gamergate started, when she was elevated to the rank of super-human monster/heroine from the most incredible internet craze I ever witnessed. You can say that the 'gators won, as I stopped looking at her as the person I knew until then (Zoe Quinn, the pretentious indie star), and actively considered her only as the victim of an organized hate movement. I still think she's both insufferable and the sad victim of a profound undeserved injustice.
I simply found Zoe Quinn an insufferable wanker until gamergate started, when she was elevated to the rank of super-human monster/heroine from the most incredible internet craze I ever witnessed. You can say that the 'gators won, as I stopped looking at her as the person I knew until then (Zoe Quinn, the pretentious indie star), and actively considered her only as the victim of an organized hate movement. I still think she's both insufferable and the sad victim of a profound undeserved injustice.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
So
What about her politics?
"I don't like person" has nothing to do with their politics, unless you don't like them because of their politics.
Isn't Zeboyd a two-man team?
I was watching that thread as a lurker and I won't lie, some of the stuff he said was a turn-off. Not to the point of not getting CSH, because it looks great and I got nothing personally against Rob, but I'm not a fan of his politics.
purseowner
Member
I fully agree with you that the #FE situation was baffling censorship, and am anti pretty much any 'localisation' changes.
Given Zeboyd aren't a localisation team though, why choose not to support them based on difference of opinion rather than simply not support poor localisation decisions?
I do, but he's still designer/programmer/writer. I'd call that a creator.
A lot of people here have already mentioned cases not wanting to support games for reasons not related to that creator's field. I just feel strongly in this particular subject.
While I loved TMS and wasn't terribly bothered by the changes, I appreciate that you at least expressed this in a cogent way instead of making a driveby post with a link to a 2 hour video by some GG demagogue.
It's stuff like this that makes the difference between people disagreeing with you vs. getting instantly dogpiled.
bobbychalkers
Member
You need to be careful about blanket statements such as this cause with that kind of reasoning, you shouldn't support pretty much every game created.
USA has the above atrocities associated with it so don't support US devs
European nations have wreaked havoc among much of the world during the colonial era, don't support European devs
Japan has committed many wartime atrocities Asia, don't support Japanese devs
you see where I'm going with this?
They also outsource music to another group, yeah.
Robert and I disagree quite often, but he's also pretty active in gaming forums in general. It's natural to disagree with someone who will frequently make his opinion known, that's just how all discourse goes. I think it'd be impossible to never disagree with someone especially if they are active members of a community.
I just don't think that the types of opinion Robert was talking about in that thread are areas of CSH that he'd be in charge of. Bill is the primary artist of the team. Robert primarily handles the coding.
As another poster stated, he's being crass/crude in tweets about diversity. Does it bother me much? Nope. Does it bother the "GG" people, hell yes. He's purposely making people uneasy and belligerent, that's a race war in my books. There are better ways to bring up diversity in gaming than saying "I hate white people".
Not at all my point. This is the type of shit I'm talking about:
https://mobile.twitter.com/manveerheir/status/309349895318417408
That's crass.
The thread is about political/ideological differences. While I think in that case, not supporting them is a bit extreme as they have no power to affect the localization-relevant climate, it's pretty in line with what the thread is about.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
He must not have been tryin too hard, since it's now three years later.
I'm going to guess he's not actually saying "I hate white people." Is this another "gamers are dead" reading trouble thing?
I don't care how many GDC talks he's given, those are some fucked up tweets. Doesn't impact my opinion of Mass Effect Andromeda any, though.
foxuzamaki
Doesn't read OPs, especially not his own
Yeah, beyond two souls had extra writers aswell
well uh, okay then. but you know that when you type the words "race war" into google the top results are breitbart, zerohedge, some shitty alt right site with a pokemon banner and hitler, right? just so you know the imagery you're invoking when you say "race war" to describe crass tweets you dislike
Unaha-Closp
Member
I keep myself separated from creators or writers or singers etc. politics and opinions so that I don't get put off by them. For instance I really really liked Beck's music - then I found out he is a Scientologist and I barely listen to him now. If I had never found out that I would still be listening to his albums (Don't ask what I think about Religious Belief and we'll get on fabulously )
As for games I know almost nothing about the people who write/code/animate etc and I like to keep it that way. Bury my head in the sand? Me? Can do.
)As for games I know almost nothing about the people who write/code/animate etc and I like to keep it that way. Bury my head in the sand? Me? Can do.
uomoartificiale
Member
Nothing about her politics. I don't think she ever voiced her own opinions in that regard.
i think you should re-read my post with more attention.
That's what I was trying to say. She has been made political by the hate she received. And she recived that hate because she was a woman, she incarnated an ideal role of indie artsy developer and she made an experimental game about depression.
I didn't like her personally at the time, and from then on I had to shutdown my personal view of her as a person because of the shit she received. I always defended her because of that. To the point that you could have mistaken me for a fan of her as a public personality and as an artist.
Glass Rebel
Member
Glad to see you made it through that hard time breh.
Fair enough. Maybe race war wasn't the best way to describe it, but in the end even though I don't like the tweets I'm still buying the game as one Dev doesn't speak for everyone.
charlequin
Banned
It's not entirely off-topic, but it's also a classic minimization tactic. The context for Sugiyama is an individual who actively advocates a position in favor of covering up war crimes and who gives huge amounts of money to organizations to support them in doing so. That's not the same as judging any Japanese developer for the average attitude about Japanese war crimes in Japan (i.e. maybe not really thinking they're a big thing) and so it's hardly comparable to judging every American developer for the problems with the country.
Now, if there's a specific creator who actively advocates for unconscionable acts by the government, that's an entirely different story.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
We're talking about a devs politics putting you off their work; you just didn't like her then felt you had to pretend you did because of Gamergate.
Ok then
I'm not sure his base argument that oppression does breed oppression is incorrect at all. It's generally accepted that family violence is passed down, with few exceptions. And it's certainly not untrue when he's discussing the Russian revolution with characters such as Stalin eventually "winning" the power struggles with telling insights of him asking his mother later "why did you beat me so hard?" (Edvard Radzinsky, p. 32). Note Stalin's would revert to calling for beatings to extract confessions "Beat and Beat and Beat again .Put them in chains, grind them to powder."
His views is also in line with the Indonesian revolution where unarmed dutch/mixed/sympathisers were publicly raped/impaled in a running amok or revenge due pent up grievances against a colonial power and threat of return.
Never mind the sepoy rebellion where rebelling units also executed and/or raped unarmed civilians.
Levine's view/argument is historically correct, monstrous systems of oppression that lead to violent uprisings do tend to bring out the same impulses usually motivated by revenge against the oppressors.
He points out that Ayn Rand wrote and was who she was due to the brutality of the Bolshevik revolution in particular to her and her families experience, which is mirrored in the character Andrew Ryan.
Darkly, as any dog owner knows that old saying; if you beat a dog don't be surprised when it finally attacks/turns viscious.
He literally points out that it's a dark feature about oppression, it brutalises everyone. He's not making some asinine false equivalence argument of the lower classes are beasties, he's pointing out that oppression causes some of the oppressed to react in a beasitial fashion, it's what their horrific society has taught them, everyone.
uomoartificiale
Member
You're just being snarky for the sake of it. I was trying to make a more articulate point, to talk about the issue from another point of view. I guess that never pays off, right?
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Out of all the shady politics espoused by some game devs that have been cited so far, this is what you feel strongly about? A minor disagreement over the localization of underage scantily clad anime girls is what made you choose to boycott Zeboyd's games?
Huh. Okay then.
petran79
Banned
Politics often is used as a veil to hide business practices. If you support a specific party or candidate you can get away with your business practices
NamelessMonk
Member
Honestly, there are a LOT OF things that I can't get into anymore. But for me, it depends if I find out that they're disgusting before or after consuming their product. For example, I still listen to Michael Jackson (even though his stuff isn't confirmed), but I never have and never will watch a Woody Allen movie.
Also obviously it depends on what they do. I can't consume stuff by racists, sexists or rapists, but I don't really care if someone's on a different political side as me. Also, I can definitely understand some of you when you say "don't blame the rest of the team for the leader's shittiness" or "just buy the thing anyways", but that's the thing. By buying their works we're almost enabling them to continue their horrid behavior.
Just my 2 cents.
Also obviously it depends on what they do. I can't consume stuff by racists, sexists or rapists, but I don't really care if someone's on a different political side as me. Also, I can definitely understand some of you when you say "don't blame the rest of the team for the leader's shittiness" or "just buy the thing anyways", but that's the thing. By buying their works we're almost enabling them to continue their horrid behavior.
Just my 2 cents.
Yep i pretty much try to do the same. This is also the reason why folks who sell things should never speak out publicly on issues outside of their product cause everything you say and do will be held against the sales of your games.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
I honestly don't see the relevance. You only talked about your feelings about Quinn and how you felt forced to change them because of Gamergate, but know you can finally get how you really felt about her off your chest. You're not even discussing the issue the thread's about.
You don't like her, but you think it sucks that she's harassed. Not a new opinion or one really relevant to this thread.
WrenchNinja
Member
No I don't
