My Beef with Summer Lesson

so what do you want?

For it to not exist? Not get localized?

i feel like people often stop at what they actually want in these threads.

I want it to be forgotten about, marginalised and not discussed, not get localised, receive general disapprobation, for us all to live in a radically different world, and to receive a million dollars.

For now I'll settle for expressing my opinion in a place where it matters, even if fractionally, with the possible result of adding weight to what movie GAF call the peer-pressure rating of this particular game, and perhaps encourage others to come round to the same opinion.

I mean duh.
 
Why do people constantly use violence as an analogue here when violence is such an imperfect comparison point. The framing of violence in games and who often ends up suffering in these moments of violence, is so so different.

A proper comparison isn't mortal kombat, which is essentially a cartoon (I mean it's a world where superhuman movie stars and immortal ninjas fight each other to save earth from evil gods). This violence is palatable because it is so divorced from our reality, so crazy, so over the top.

That's one of the reasons that video games gets away with its violence not seeming creepy or fucked up.

Let me be clear, I think this game should exist, but I also think that defending people who may play this game for creepy reasons by going "hey, noted former movie star now superhero Johnny cage used his hands to rip apart an insect lady's torso before putting his head through it and repating a famous horror movie line. So you can't be weirded out at some people for creeping on this teenage girl" is nonsensical to me.
This coupled with the fact that a)these people give as much of a shit about video game violence as they do starving children in Africa, as in, conveniently when yet another example of creepy shit is in a Japanese game, and b)more and more triple A games are giving the player more agency in game scenarios, Deus Ex and Dishonored can be completed without any deaths, so can WD2. Man games allow the player to sneak past enemies entirely now. And more than ever before there are a shit ton of non-violent video games both indie and triple A being released. Violence seriously has no place in this discussion other than an incredibly transparent defense mechanism and deflection tactic as if the discussion is suddenly gonna turn into an in-depth critique of game violence, and one that they'd be an active participant in instead of braindead shit like "But what about *insert violent game here.* It's like clockwork. And notice how not a single one of them has bothered to start a thread discussing video game violence OR been an active participant in those discussions when the forum decided it was time to have a legitimate discussion on the subject. I'm annoying at best and absolutely grating at worst.
 
you get stats? lol dang.

how does that manifest though? I thought the game was mostly yes/no looking around/touching actions
Each morning you choose what what to to teach and each lesson influences specific stats. How well she learns may be be influenced by certain actions you get to chosse (like thorough explanations, open the window, torn on/off the AC, etc). Those stats influence the test she takes at the end of the week. There's no touching but often she will lean towards you.
 
Why do people constantly use violence as an analogue here when violence is such an imperfect comparison point. The framing of violence in games and who often ends up suffering in these moments of violence, is so so different.

People bring up violent video games because the argument in favor of them applies to *any* game. That argument being that it's a work of fiction, and if you argue a work of fiction can have adverse effects on society and players, then that goes for games of all genres. This isn't a argument about which is worse or better, it's applying the same logic we've always applied when someone criticizes a game based on morals.

It's like clockwork. And notice how not a single one of them has bothered to start a thread discussing video game violence OR been an active participant in those discussions when the forum decided it was time to have a legitimate discussion on the subject. I'm annoying at best and absolutely grating at worst.

You're missing the point. People aren't making threads about violent video games because they realize it's fiction, like they realize this game is fiction. They only bring it up when others think a fictitious game that falls under another moral objection suddenly has more weight than violence/death/murder.
 
Oh my god. Ok, seriously, stay away from teenagers if you legitimately think that being alone with an underage girl in her room and sharing headphones while making eye contact is ok behavior for a teacher. Just a reminder of how that's portrayed in the game btw.

About to load up Maya just to show peeps how far a rig has to be leaned forward to get that close to a FP camera. I like how the defense went from "the game is totes innocent" to "ok those gifs are pretty bad but hey, plot twist, what if you're not an older man, what if you're a woman?! Dun dun dun!!!"

-_-
I'm still waiting for you to show any kind of indication that the player avatar is supposed to be anything but her peer in age (or at least somewhere in the same ballpark instead of say, 5+ years older), authority or social standing. A tutor is not a teacher. They don't grade you, they have no authority or power over you. And no, her referring to you by the title of "Sensei" does not indicate anything about that (nor about the avatars gender, but I don't dispute your view about the target audience in general). Claiming otherwise is just you showing your ignorance about how Japanese dialogue works.
 
If you wanna see what they're most excited about, check out the tone of the threads man.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1112600
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1277856&page=1

Astoundingly similar to the Japanese impressions:


Until the duck is pointed out as a duck, that's when the defense shows up.
.
hm.....that thread.
lol, I'm trying. I'm really trying. So I won't make assumptions.

If people can provide concrete reasons and gameplay, etc, mechanics, whatever that have them super hyped, then sure I'll buy into it, despite my preconceived notions.

Each morning you choose what what to to teach and each lesson influences specific stats. How well she learns may be be influenced by certain actions you get to chosse (like thorough explanations, open the window, torn on/off the AC, etc). Those stats influence the test she takes at the end of the week. There's no touching but often she will lean towards you.

thx
 
Why do people constantly use violence as an analogue here when violence is such an imperfect comparison point. The framing of violence in games and who often ends up suffering in these moments of violence, is so so different.

A proper comparison isn't mortal kombat, which is essentially a cartoon (I mean it's a world where superhuman movie stars and immortal ninjas fight each other to save earth from evil gods). This violence is palatable because it is so divorced from our reality, so crazy, so over the top.

That's one of the reasons that video games gets away with its violence not seeming creepy or fucked up.

Let me be clear, I think this game should exist, but I also think that defending people who may play this game for creepy reasons by going "hey, noted former movie star now superhero Johnny cage used his hands to rip apart an insect lady's torso before putting his head through it and repating a famous horror movie line. So you can't be weirded out at some people for creeping on this teenage girl" is nonsensical to me.

That's not really my point though. It's more you can be weirded out by anything. I sure as shit am weirded out by fatalities. I'm a little weirded out by Summer Lesson too, just that people in different cultures have built their own constructs to justify what they do, or don't find weird, unsettling or creepy.

Why should one culture's acceptance be right and one wrong of either a social interaction simulator (where the only actions you can perform are to respond to dialog options as I understand it) or a horrendously violent situation where you actually press buttons to make violence happen.
 
As college senior that tutors freshmen and sophomores in the community college I graduated from: the idea of going into anyone's bedroom to tutor a lesson just sounds really uncomfortable. Even the home in general feels questionable, I'd be much quicker to suggest a cafe or even the library before going to someones personal home.

Can't say I've played the game, but I'd be hard pressed to believe that the reason most people play this is to simulate being a teacher/tutor. While the idea of simulating "realistic" human behavior sounds like it could be interesting, this one in particular just kind of screams something else. Looking at the gifs and watching some videos, this is so off to what I personally experience during my 20 tutoring sessions a week that I'm left feeling really confused.
 
I like how the implication deduces that there is *certainly* something predatory or sexual going on if a teacher shares an earbud with a student. I can see how it would be unprofessional/inappropriate, but that does not immediately translate to any sort of "grooming".

There is certainly some wish fulfillment going on, and it is far from being entirely realistic, so nobody should be taking direct cues from this game and it is your responsibility if you do decide to ape aspects of it. As long as you realize that this is not how a real tutor needs to behave, what is the issue?
 
I'm still waiting for you to show any kind of indication that the player avatar is supposed to be anything but her peer in age (or at least somewhere in the same ballpark instead of say, 5+ years older), authority or social standing.
By my knowledge, older peer=sempai. Especially in the context of Japanese games where people don't actually talk in a way that legitimately resembles Japanese conversation and speech patterns. The onus is on you to prove that the player is not an authority figure.

A tutor is not a teacher. They don't grade you, they have no authority or power over you. And no, her referring to you by the title of "Sensei" does not indicate anything about that (nor about the avatars gender, but I don't dispute your view about the target audience in general). Claiming otherwise is just you showing your ignorance about how Japanese dialogue works.
Again, Japanese dialogue in the majority of video games doesn't reflect legitimate Japanese speech patterns and usually follows a set of stereotypes inspired by anime. This game doesn't seem to separate itself in anyway shape or form in that regard especially based on the body language of the underage girl.

hm.....that thread.
lol, I'm trying. I'm really trying. So I won't make assumptions

If people can provide concrete reasons and gameplay, etc, mechanics, whatever that have them super hyped, then sure I'll buy into it, despite my preconceived notions.
Every thread about the game aside from this one, (due to the defense force), has had the same exact tone. People are just as interested in the gameplay of this game as they are in DOA beach volleyball. Where the purpose is incredibly clear and similarly, the tone of the trailer threads reflect that. I'd consider it a lot more respectable if they were just as honest as the Japanese audience is.
 
Well the tutor cant be in normal school like her, since i believe at that point tutor would be called senpai(or however older class students are called over there)
I'm not an expert at Japanese Culture but I'm pretty sure that Senpai has nothing to do with the age.

Let's say that a 12 year old girl joins a group, let's call them BKA84, and she's there for 2 years. Then a 15 year old girl joins. The 15 year old girl has to call the 14 year old girl Senpai because she's been doing the Idol thing longer than the 15 year old girl.

Edit: mhh reading your post again I think that's exactly what you said lol
 
hm.....that thread.
lol, I'm trying. I'm really trying. So I won't make assumptions.

If people can provide concrete reasons and gameplay, etc, mechanics, whatever that have them super hyped, then sure I'll buy into it, despite my preconceived notions.

To answer that I'll quote myself from before.

It's fun because right now it's one of the very few VR games that actively tries to portray interactions with a somewhat realistic character and convey a sense of presence and locale. It’s fun watching the way she’s animated and the trigger of awkwardness by the sudden invasion of your personal space.
(...)
I don’t think anyone is defending the game as a “teaching simulator”. It’s just that it’s not anywhere near what other users are trying to imply.

At worst it's some voyeuristic simulador if your fetish goes that way.
 
So she might not even be underage? I feel like this whole discussion is pointless without knowing the facts about this game.

Well she's about to go to college (So i'm told) which means later years in schooling and if the mother is worried about her grades, i'm assuming she's past freshman year in high school at the very least. so she's either a second year or third year ( i believe its only 3 grades in high school over there but again I could be absolutely wrong. Its why finding out how old the tutor is (unless its meant to be the age of the player) determines how Creepy this is. since if we see a lets say 17 year old student flirting with a 21/22 year old... is that wrong?
But note, she could again as i thought earlier be (At the very least) 15 youngest and 18 oldest(going with a gut feeling that she's either 16 or 17 myself but i'm just doing this with deductions)
also someone mentioned that since she works at a maid cafe, she has to be 17? I'm not sure what the age required to do work is over there, so if anyone can answer that question we'll have a clearer chance of guessing her age.
 
Summer Lessons being a Japanese market game, age of consent is low over there and not viewed as SUPER CREEPY. How you feel about that depends on where you live. Here in America you can kill people in any way you like on your entertainment but god forbid Janet Jackson show 2 seconds of nipple. The only surviving Law and Order tv show is the Weekly sexual crime one because America is obsessed with punishing sexual crimes. This society still holding on to its Puritan past.
 
It seems like so many of the argument being made in this thread are just coming from a series of what-ifs about the game, like her age, your age, your station, and the actual relationship between you and the student, rather than any sort of concrete elements in the actual game. I'm no expert, but I do watch anime (I know how it sounds) and if summer lesson is just continuing the tropes of anime, calling someone sensei or senpai really doesn't seem to have any correlation to age, they simply refer to someone more knowledgeable than oneself. I know anime certainly isn't 1-1 with actual Japanese culture, but I don't think the very nature of the language would be inconsistent.
 
Summer Lessons being a Japanese market game, age of consent is low over there and not viewed as SUPER CREEPY. How you feel about that depends on where you live. Here in America you can kill people in any way you like on your entertainment but god forbid Janet Jackson show 2 seconds of nipple. The only surviving Law and Order tv show is the Weekly sexual crime one because America is obsessed with punishing sexual crimes. This society still holding on to its Puritan past.

Or maybe it's just creepy.
 
Is OP saying that the game would be better if it didn't tease, but rather was full blown porn?
(In which case I agree - Summer Lesson is so fucking tame it's actually quite boring. )

One of the coolest things about VR is that you can do anything.
I'm not denying it's kinda creepy, but that's more a reflection of the player. you can play that game without any weirdness, there's no incentive to flirt, a girl could easily play that game too.

It's only as weird as you want it to be.

~~~

On a sidenote: Actual VR porn is actually super awesome :)
 
Well she's about to go to college (So i'm told) which means later years in schooling and if the mother is worried about her grades, i'm assuming she's past freshman year in high school at the very least. so she's either a second year or third year ( i believe its only 3 grades in high school over there but again I could be absolutely wrong. Its why finding out how old the tutor is (unless its meant to be the age of the player) determines how Creepy this is. since if we see a lets say 17 year old student flirting with a 21/22 year old... is that wrong?
But note, she could again as i thought earlier be (At the very least) 15 youngest and 18 oldest(going with a gut feeling that she's either 16 or 17 myself but i'm just doing this with deductions)
also someone mentioned that since she works at a maid cafe, she has to be 17? I'm not sure what the age required to do work is over there, so if anyone can answer that question we'll have a clearer chance of guessing her age.

According to http://www.cafe-athome.com/recruit/ and http://wonder-parlour.com/information/recruit.html, minimum age to work at a maid cafe is 16, but the college comment would put her at 17, going on 18.
 
That's not really my point though. It's more you can be weirded out by anything. I sure as shit am weirded out by fatalities. I'm a little weirded out by Summer Lesson too, just that people in different cultures have built their own constructs to justify what they do, or don't find weird, unsettling or creepy.

Why should one culture's acceptance be right and one wrong of either a social interaction simulator (where the only actions you can perform are to respond to dialog options as I understand it) or a horrendously violent situation where you actually press buttons to make violence happen.

Nothing's right or wrong.

What I would say is that what makes people react in certain ways here isn't the degree to which the violence or the creeping on teens happens. It's how real it feels to our particular worlds. 99% of video game violence happens in constructs that bear no resemblance to our world. So it's easy to disassociate from this.

The creeping on a teenage girl thing is different, it happens within a reasonably frequent social contruct. This is why people have a firm emotional reaction to this, because it feels real. Because it is real, because stuff like this happens and people don't like it.

And not only that, but this is a game which frames what happens here as okay, which most people don't think it is (teenage grooming isn't my thing) . Compare this to violent video games which now almost go out of their way to punish you mechanically for violence, and in their narratives spend a lot of time railing against the violence they portray.

Ultimately, I'm not saying fuck Japanese culture, I'm saying that this is a creepy thing. If a culture makes a racist thing, I don't excuse it by saying, well that's just their culture, so I don't know why I should here. As well as this just saying, I have no comment on Japanese culture deeper than this, I do no know Japanese culture like that. I just think this is a creepy game.
 
Summer Lessons being a Japanese market game, age of consent is low over there and not viewed as SUPER CREEPY. How you feel about that depends on where you live. Here in America you can kill people in any way you like on your entertainment but god forbid Janet Jackson show 2 seconds of nipple. The only surviving Law and Order tv show is the Weekly sexual crime one because America is obsessed with punishing sexual crimes. This society still holding on to its Puritan past.
Not being into teenage girls doesn't make a person a puritan. The violence topic has already been used and refuted succinctly multiple times in this thread so come up with a better deflection if you're not gonna address the multitude of reasons why this game is creepy AF. And just because teenage voyeurism and exploitation isn't viewed as super creepy in Japan, (it is, it's a big cultural issue), doesn't mean that it's not super creepy at all. To put it bluntly, "It's Japan" is not a valid excuse.

Fuck of with this shit
Really?
 
Summer lesson is the equivalent to a sensual novel where no one gets naked, no one is getting physical, no one is overly sexualized but it's still intimate in a way. Seriously, at worst this game is sensual, not sexual. At best it's a neat little tech demo or immersion tool showcase.

Personally I'm fine with games like this existing.

Both sides of this whole shindig seems to just want moral high ground IMO.
 
Played this the other day and thought it was hilarious. Played it once and put it away. I'm in no position to be the moral thumper so if people like it, they like it.
 
I never understood why people single out DOAXBV. It's unabashed in what it is selling. It's softcore porn in game form and they are upfront about it. It's like buying a nudie magazine or going to a strip club.

Things like Summer Lesson, are this sort of "We want to appeal to that same market as DOAXBV.... but not quite say we're porn". They want the fanbase without the honesty. It's like, here is a quick panty shot you pervert. Do something creepily awkward to the girl, in comparison where DOA is just like, "You want some Tits and Ass?. HERE".
 
I'm just going to leave this here...

Honestly, i really have no problems with this game. I'm one of those people who thinks it's weird that violent/gory games are more or less seen as acceptable, but start showing a bit of perversion and it's suddenly a big no-no. As long as proper age ratings are being given, people can do whatever they want.
 
I never understood why people single out DOAXBV. It's unabashed in what it is selling. It's softcore porn in game form and they are upfront about it. It's like buying a nudie magazine or going to a strip club.

Things like Summer Lesson, are this sort of "We want to appeal to that same market as DOAXBV.... but not quite say we're porn". They want the fanbase without the honesty. It's like, here is a quick panty shot you pervert. Do something creepily awkward to the girl, in comparison where DOA is just like, "You want some Tits and Ass?. HERE".

If the developers were really wanted you to act on those desiries you'd think they would program in more things to allow you freedom, beyond selecting floating options and allowing headmovement in a VR game. I don't panty shots are a thing in this game.
 
If the developers were really wanted you to act on those desiries you'd think they would program in more things to allow you freedom, beyond selecting floating options and allowing headmovement in a VR game. I don't panty shots are a thing in this game.

IIRC the camera doesnt allow you to go down that low since it becomes an Out of Play zone. at least i've seen some image that showed that here on gaf.
 
Nothing's right or wrong.

What I would say is that what makes people react in certain ways here isn't the degree to which the violence or the creeping on teens happens. It's how real it feels to our particular worlds. 99% of video game violence happens in constructs that bear no resemblance to our world. So it's easy to disassociate from this.

The creeping on a teenage girl thing is different, it happens within a reasonably frequent social contruct. This is why people have a firm emotional reaction to this, because it feels real. Because it is real, because stuff like this happens and people don't like it.

And not only that, but this is a game which frames what happens here as okay, which most people don't think it is (teenage grooming isn't my thing) . Compare this to violent video games which now almost go out of their way to punish you mechanically for violence, and in their narratives spend a lot of time railing against the violence they portray.

Ultimately, I'm not saying fuck Japanese culture, I'm saying that this is a creepy thing. If a culture makes a racist thing, I don't excuse it by saying, well that's just their culture, so I don't know why I should here. As well as this just saying, I have no comment on Japanese culture deeper than this, I do no know Japanese culture like that. I just think this is a creepy game.

I think an important distinction here might be to point out we are most likely looking at a subset. I've heard it mentioned that Otaku culture is part of Japanese culture, but doesn't encompass or is representative of the entire culture. I'd be interested in knowing what the general culture thinks of Summer Lesson.

As for me, I'd have to say I am conflicted. On one hand VR should present challenging experiences if it is going to grow as a medium. Never playing Summer Lesson myself, it is interesting how many people felt they had very real reactions like nervousness and excitement even though they knew their interactions were virtual. That is rather amazing that technology has enabled this new level of interaction.

On the other hand what basis can I apply my societal norms to this? Does morality have a place in criticism? Are the sexual undertones from the game, does the player bring them into the simulation, both?

Dylan presented some good points, but as others have said, probably lost his critical position by being dismissive or critical of the audience and the work. That is often times not conductive to most discussions.
 
Again your argument, and OP's whole premise boils down to the inability of separate fantasy from reality, and the presumption that others cannot do that either.

GAF may be the stronghold for progressive liberal left wing views about issues IN REAL LIFE, and the actions around young woman depicted in the game maybe inappropriate by many (including you) IN REAL LIFE. These are debatable at best, but the core fallacy in OP's essay is a 20-year-old argument that actions in video games should be judged by morals or even laws by real life standard. This is proven simply not true as shockingly people can actually distinguish real life from video games. And a lot of gaffers who may have strong liberal views about social and political issues, will defend not only this game, but also others because you cannot extend real life morals to games, VR, or even other medias.

I think that is where your confusion lies.

Thanks for putting an argument out there (not jocking), but I don't think that's true, at least in my case. It never actually occurred to me that we were talking about real life. That would be some dark shit for real.
I think this game deserves a critique for its depiction of its idealized, fantasized depiction of a relationship between men and women (and in this case between an older man and a younger woman).

I think this lacks all the nuance and the complexity of what we may call erotism, where roles and dominance are fluctuating and unexpected. This thing really seems to boil down evertything to "she looks so pure, but maybe she enjoys that I'm secretly watching her, and maybe she's secretly a whore". That's a bad fantasy to have in my opinion, not only because it'really boring, but also because it seems depicted with the reassuring quality of keeping this spell unbroken for you.
Can we agree that she's seems really passive and unaware?

At least that's what it seems, unless at the end she completely snaps out and she dildos the player to death with the move controller. Or maybe she humiliates you in front of the class if you are too pervy during your "lessons". There are people who are in that shit too, you know.
 
Thanks for putting an argument out there (not jocking), but I don't think that's true, at least in my case. It never actually occurred to me that we were talking about real life. That would be some dark shit for real.
I think this game deserves a critique for its depiction of its idealized, fantasized depiction of a relationship between men and women (and in this case between an older man and a younger woman).

I think this lacks all the nuance and the complexity of what we may call erotism, where roles and dominance are fluctuating and unexpected. This thing really seems to boil down evertything to "she looks so pure, but maybe she enjoys that I'm secretly watching her, and maybe she's secretly a whore". That's a bad fantasy to have in my opinion, not only because it'really boring, but also because it seems depicted with the reassuring quality of keeping this spell unbroken for you.
Can we agree that she's seems really passive and unaware?

At least that's what it seems, unless at the end she completely snaps out and she dildos the player to death with the move controller. Or maybe she humiliates you in front of the class if you are too pervy during your "lessons". There are people who are in that shit too, you know.

I keep hearing people call the protagonist an older man but honestly I don't see it (and the gameplay itself seems to back it up. Calling someone sensei is not indicative of age but rather knowledge or wisdom. For example, if you are a 16 year old being taught a sport by a 13 year old prodigy, that prodigy would be your sensei. Her conversational manner would actually seem to indicate that you are significantly closer to her age as opposed to being older. It's extremely unlikely that she would be so informal with you, who she is unfamiliar with, if you were significantly older than her.

I'm just using the logic and reason of what I know with the Japanese structure of social norms about how I imagine this would work. I was thinking about it while driving home and it doesn't make sense for her to be so informal with a stranger two or three times her age.
 
I think an important distinction here might be to point out we are most likely looking at a subset. I've heard it mentioned that Otaku culture is part of Japanese culture, but doesn't encompass or is representative of the entire culture. I'd be interested in knowing what the general culture thinks of Summer Lesson.
The general consensus in Japan is that the "anime" culture is extremely creepy. Think about it...those types of cartoons air at one in the morning and are extremely low budget, the audience isn't really that huge in comparison to the population.

However; the greater point to me is how misogynistic general Japanese culture is, which when taking that into consideration, people that want to deviate from the norm take it a step further which enables the objectification of women. I'm sure you could also trace it back to suppression of the general populace; after all, Japan is the most unhappy country in the entire world. Groping and sexual assault is a pretty big problem in the country.
 
I keep hearing people call the protagonist an older man but honestly I don't see it (and the gameplay itself seems to back it up. Calling someone sensei is not indicative of age but rather knowledge or wisdom. For example, if you are a 16 year old being taught a sport by a 13 year old prodigy, that prodigy would be your sensei. Her conversational manner would actually seem to indicate that you are significantly closer to her age as opposed to being older. It's extremely unlikely that she would be so informal with you, who she is unfamiliar with, if you were significantly older than her.

I'm just using the logic and reason of what I know with the Japanese structure of social norms about how I imagine this would work. I was thinking about it while driving home and it doesn't make sense for her to be so informal with a stranger two or three times her age.
Then she will dildo sensei to death instead.

Sorry couldn't resist...

I don't think that that changes much in their relationship anyway. He's sensei, not senpai, and sensei seems to be a creep even if it's just five years older (old creeps started early).
 
I never understood why people single out DOAXBV. It's unabashed in what it is selling. It's softcore porn in game form and they are upfront about it. It's like buying a nudie magazine or going to a strip club.

Things like Summer Lesson, are this sort of "We want to appeal to that same market as DOAXBV.... but not quite say we're porn". They want the fanbase without the honesty. It's like, here is a quick panty shot you pervert. Do something creepily awkward to the girl, in comparison where DOA is just like, "You want some Tits and Ass?. HERE".

eh, naw. There are levels to it. If you are ok with DOAX, then you should be okay with this.
 
Where Summer Lesson turns particularly dark for me, from what I've seen so far, is how the game goes out of it's way to really humanize the student. Sure, she's still a Japanese Schoolgirl, and stereotypical as hell, but she also talks about her friends and her family, her interests and her life. She's as close to a human being as anything else we've seen in VR so far.

But here's why that's fucked up: The game is essentially asking the player to dehumanize this girl, mentally, and secretly. When the student says "We went to the pool, wanna see a picture?" - the suggestion doesn't seem to be "This girl is flirting with you." but rather "this girl is oblivious to the sexual suggestions created by the scenario, and you, dear player, are reaping the benefits." .
I can't agree with this at all; actually, its somewhat in direct counter to what I think.
Assuming the game IS intentionally trying to be lightly sexually provocative, I think the fact that the game humanizes the character improves the game on the whole. In my opinion, the most rewardable and enjoyable types of "lewd content" is when the characters are actual characters. If characters are treated as just objects from the get-go, as if they aren't characters but rather just player models that exist to serve the player, there's a lot less emotional involvement. If you can't grow to care about a character, the content is simply less enjoyable as its not as intimate, personal, or close. And if a game's purpose in existing is to sexualize and cater to particular fetishes, then they are improved as games if they take the time to set up a story and make the characters real.

Outside of that and within the context of what you are referring to, I don't believe the game is asking the player to dehumanize the character either. Obliviousness is in itself a character trait. In that sense, if what you say is true, the game is trying to get the player to see the character as naive, innocent, and oblivious. This is how actual humans can be, and if the game is indeed what you say it is, its blatantly catering to a fetish via actual humanization. Adding in character traits rather than stripping them away.

Although maybe I'm misinterpreting what you're saying; if you are saying that because this is VR, and because the player knows that none of it is real, its allowing the player to experience thoughts and feelings without the same sense of guilt as would come from such things in real life, then I suppose I can see that as encouraging a sense of dehumanization, but only so much as far as the general escapism that you referred to like you would see in GTA. At the end of the day, all video games by virtue of being video games suffer the dilemma of being unable to be treated as real entities. You kill characters and are taught in video games to think badly of characters that, in real life, you would never dare have killed. You take on roles that you wouldn't in real life. Perhaps because you are simply unable to, or perhaps because they're actually immoral. Games like Killer Is Dead for example give you the chance to feel what its like to be an assassin, all while characterizing the main character as being some sort of cool level-headed hero. But he's still an assassin at the end of the day. You forgive this as the player however, as it is just a game. I don't see Summer Lesson as being much different in this sense.
not discussed, not get localised.
Aww. I could understand someone feeling most of what you said, but with these I can't help but be a little sad. Wanting the game to not get localized is taking the game away from those who might like the game specifically because of your personal feelings towards it. And even content that is bad in nature has something to be gained from being discussed, as people can learn more about video games in general and how people treat and interact with them as well as how they affect people, and, beyond this, learn more about each other as human beings. Discussion of even the most abhorrent things leaves something to be gained, as much as people might want to throw such things under a rug and forget about them. Perhaps even just to learn what not to do when making a video game in order to help improve them overall and/or help game developers gain feedback to improve their games in future titles.
 
Then she will dildo sensei to death instead.

Sorry couldn't resist...

I don't think that that changes much in their relationship anyway. He's sensei, not senpai, and sensei seems to be a creep even if it's just five years older (old creeps started early).

I don't see it. I've played the game. If anything, it seems like she flirts with you and you either shut her down completely by not giving a reaction, or do the polite thing like listen to music when she asks. Also, all senpai means is that there is an actual relationship to go with the age gap. Someone who is 16 can be a senpai to someone who is 30 is that person is close to them such as a mentor.
 
By my knowledge, older peer=sempai. Especially in the context of Japanese games where people don't actually talk in a way that legitimately resembles Japanese conversation and speech patterns. The onus is on you to prove that the player is not an authority figure.Again, Japanese dialogue in the majority of video games doesn't reflect legitimate Japanese speech patterns and usually follows a set of stereotypes inspired by anime. This game doesn't seem to separate itself in anyway shape or form in that regard especially based on the body language of the underage girl.
Senpai as an older peer is certainly true, but it only works if you are a part of the same social structure like being in the same school, club or similar entity and can refer to a person with relatively greater experience instead of actually being older. Since the player is a stranger to her, as indicative of her asking 'who are you?', she wouldn't refer to the player as a Senpai unless it came out that you are in the same school in a higher grade or if you graduated from the same school. And as the player is in the position of teaching her something, possessing greater knowledge on the subjects, the player is Sensei. That is where the title starts and ends in the presented context and absolutely nothing in the material available about the game indicates otherwise, or at the very least, I have yet to come across any such indications. Her chummy and relatively carefree attitude and behavior are indicative of her and the players relative peer-nes. The break-time conversations simply don't work on any level if the player were significantly older than her.

lol at the bolded though. It is literally impossible to *prove* it either way. There is merely nothing indicating the player character being notably senior to her and plenty indication of not being so.

Edit: Seems like Akileese has two posts which are saying the same thing as I am.
Fuck of with this shit
Top quality contribution. 11/10, would endorse again.
 
I don't see it. I've played the game. If anything, it seems like she flirts with you and you either shut her down completely by not giving a reaction, or do the polite thing like listen to music when she asks. Also, all senpai means is that there is an actual relationship to go with the age gap. Someone who is 16 can be a senpai to someone who is 30 is that person is close to them such as a mentor.

Have you seen the gifs in the thread? Not saying that this is not how you'll play this game, but are you seriously convinced that this all this game is about?
 
Senpai as an older peer is certainly true, but it only works if you are a part of the same social structure like being in the same school, club or similar entity and can refer to a person with relatively greater experience instead of actually being older. Since the player is a stranger to her, as indicative of her asking 'who are you?', she wouldn't refer to the player as a Senpai unless it came out that you are in the same school in a higher grade or if you graduated from the same school. And as the player is in the position of teaching her something, possessing greater knowledge on the subjects, the player is Sensei. That is where the title starts and ends in the presented context and absolutely nothing in the material available about the game indicates otherwise, or at the very least, I have yet to come across any such indications. Her chummy and relatively carefree attitude and behavior are indicative of her and the players relative peer-nes. The break-time conversations simply don't work on any level if the player were significantly older than her.

Yeah see this is exactly what my wife and I were talking about when I brought the thread up to her. The way she acts towards you makes absolutely no indication that you are in a position of power over her (she is informal throughout) and seems to indicate that while she may not know you and you certainly do not go to her school, you are incredibly close in age. If you were even 4 or 5 years older than her, she would feel uneasy being so informal with you.

The only other way she could act would be to act incredibly rude in an informal manner, but nothing about Hikari gives off that vibe. If I had to guess, you are probably a year or two older than her tutoring for a part time job. That seems to make the most sense based on interactions.

e: I don't need to see the gifs! I've literally played it for an hour/hour and a half. You just repeatedly shut down her advances and share a few experiences that at best, could be described as building a kinship with her. Either way, I've said my piece and having actually played the game, I'm bowing out of this thread. It's been...semi non-toxic for a page and I doubt it'll stay way.
 
It is basically creep simulator 2016, that's the long and short of it. Maybe it will be fun for those with non-existent/unfulfilling romantic relationships or for future pedophiles, who knows?
 
It is basically creep simulator 2016, that's the long and short of it. Maybe it will be fun for those with non-existent/unfulfilling romantic relationships or for future pedophiles, who knows?

and people wonder why these threads end up this way?
 
I know right. It's just a videogame, it's not like it's going to hurt anyone anyway. Are people who play fps games future mass murderers? LOL

*boots up rapelay on PC*

Nothin wrong with that
straw-man.jpg


Oh the places you'll go.
 
I'm with the OP... this isn't about sexualisation so much as encouraging creepy male sexual behaviour. Even though it's not explicit, the subconscious urges it taps into (power over an objectified female) is a little off-putting.

It's totally a grey area. Enjoying this game doesn't make you a creeper. The issue for me is that it's celebrated in the mainstream when I think I would accept it better if it was a niche title like the more deviant visual novels.
 
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