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[meerak]

That first link seems to be one of the better understandings of what might make a 3D sonic game fun. Pretty damn cool.

 

[NinjamicWZ]

That's nice. someone call me back in 5-10 years when they actually have a game instead of proof of concept then.

You should call yourself back. There's more to video games than you and your wallet.

 

[Metal-Geo]

Sonic Utopia has an adorable Sonic model.

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

Both of those are freaking awesome and exactly what a proper 3D Sonic platformer should be!

People objecting that it's too open and not linear enough lack imagination.

 

[skypunch]

Both of those are freaking awesome and exactly what a proper 3D Sonic platformer should be!

People objecting that it's too open and not linear enough lack imagination.

Exactly this!

 

[Stevey]

Open World is the last thing I want from a Sonic game.

 

[Ogodei]

Yep.

People really think Sega never considered something like this themselves? There's probably a reason why it's never worked out.

Sega actually did it, too, with Green Hill Zone in Sonic Adventure 2. It was cool for the novelty of it (and how hard you had to work to get it), but even in that game, the regular stages were better-designed for 3D.

 

[TheCongressman1]

Glad open level Sonic is starting to take off. There's been one other project that I know of long in the making, so it's great to see another with this level of polish so far.

This kind of gameplay is what I want from 3D Sonic.

 

[dlauv]

Sega actually did it, too, with Green Hill Zone in Sonic Adventure 2. It was cool for the novelty of it (and how hard you had to work to get it), but even in that game, the regular stages were better-designed for 3D.

This is a bizarre statement. Green Hill in SA2 wasn't anything like this on top of the game not playing anything like this.

 

[george_us]

That Green Hills Remix is so hot.

 

[messiaen]

Adventure and Adventure 2 were great 3D Sonic games and neither of those videos really capture that same essence. They look really rough tech demo-esque. I don't think Sonic's gameplay lends itself well to sandbox. The closest we ever got was Big and Knuckles' levels in Adventure? I don't know, I haven't really play any recent Sonic outside of Generations which I didn't enjoy as much as others. I've been meaning to give Colors a second shot though.

 

[freethoughtbubble]

How can people find fault with that first video?? It's amazing. It looks like sonic controls perfectly. I'd buy a game built around those mechanics twice. I thought OP's Mario 64 moment comment was hyperbole, but after watching I totally agree.

Both of those are freaking awesome and exactly what a proper 3D Sonic platformer should be!

People objecting that it's too open and not linear enough lack imagination.

100%

 

[Vex_]

The first vid, with some tweaks, could be amazing.

The first video had too much wide open space with nothing going on. I realize what they were trying to do with speed, but looking off in the distance sometimes you saw a whole lot of nothing.

That was an early demo I assume, so hopefully that guy adjusts some things.

BUT DAMN. The movement was looking like the sonic CD opening anime! (sonic boom OP)

 

[nopenopenope]

.

 

[Skidd]

One step closer to a playable Sonic CD intro, I hope.

 

[gelf]

Something that has long bothered me about 3D Sonic is the levels generally feel less open then those in the 2D classics. Full open world might by too far but it's nice to see an attempt at something that isn't just a bunch of linear tubes to a finishing line.

 

[Ogodei]

This is a bizarre statement. Green Hill in SA2 wasn't anything like this on top of the game not playing anything like this.

I meant in the sense that Sega strove to recreate an actual Genesis Sonic level in 3D, which is what the games in the OP are trying to do (in spirit, if not in actuality).

 

[nded]

Jesus, lots of people in this thread missing the point entirely.

I meant in the sense that Sega strove to recreate an actual Genesis Sonic level in 3D, which is what the games in the OP are trying to do (in spirit, if not in actuality).

My takeaway from these videos is that they're trying to incorporate the physics based game play that made 2D Sonic games so appealing in a 3D environment without resorting to on-rails segments, straight corridors and automated loop-de-loops like the modern 3D games typically do. That SA2 bonus level evokes the visuals of the classic games, but certainly not the mechanics.

 

[RomanceDawn]

It's a shame some people are only able to see the levels as just being directionless instead of being excited for the fact that the level design has so much potential. It's like some of you can't think beyond what you're shown on the screen. With a bit of refinement and more structure, it really could become the way 3D Sonic games are made. I think it's bloody brilliant.

Seriously. Yes. Thank you!

This could be a hub of sorts to a single zone, collectables and secrets could be littered throughout with entrances to levels that are a little more structured to get from point A to point B. Sonic being able to roll up a hill and fly off at maximum velocity is exactly what 2D Sonic is.

There is so much that could be done with this. Both these developers are doing God's work.

In 3D Mario games be it open ended or linear, it's fun to just see what Mario is capable of. Climbing on this, jumping on that and just seeing how you can interact with the environment is very fun. The same can be said for Sonic in a potential game like this. Just trying to figure out what you can do in such a massive world with Sonic running around like a maniac looks like so much fun.

Green Hill Zone
1 - Green Hill Hub - Super big, places to explore, and Mario 64 style challenges. Get the 8 red rings, find the animal capsule, etc.
2 - Sunshine style "Secret Of" stages throughout the hub. Maybe you find a hidden cave and you access Green Hill Act 1. The Acts are narrower Green Hill stages that focus mostly on platforming, keeping up momentum using tricks and combos to gain points along the way. At the end of a level you get A-E score for replay-ability and some doodad that helps you unlock some magical door that opens up the next Zone.

Lava Reef Zone
1 - Lave Reef Hub - blah blah blah wash rinse repeat.

It aint that hard.

 

[Krejlooc]

Why isn't there a SAGE 2016 topic on NeoGaf??

 

[nkarafo]

The first video is actually pretty awesome. I love how you have so much space to run and the visibility is great. I also get some Jumping Flash vibes, it would be great if they did something like this so there is an objective and a reason to explore and do platforming.

THose are really cool little sandboxes experiments with a lot of potential, but personally I need something concrete to do. End-game experiencies please.

Thi first one could easily end up as a Jumping Flash clone.

 

[MrCunningham]

I thought this was going to be a thread about Sonic Mania, as it essentially is being made by the fans for Sega.

 

[Wowfunhappy]

I feel like Sonic speed + open world would cause me to get totally lost. :/

 

[CharminUltra]

Woah, that is awful... ly amazing! I'd play that.

 

[MannyToons]

Sonic Utopia... holy shit. I was just enamored watching that trailer the entire time. That's exactly the kind of 3D Sonic game I wanna play. ;_;

 

[PaulloDEC]

Sonic Utopia looks like a ton of fun. That's the first 3D Sonic concept I've seen that takes into account the fact that if you want high speed without frustrating collisions, you need a massive world.

 

[Schopenhauerian]

That first link seems to be one of the better understandings of what might make a 3D sonic game fun. Pretty damn cool.

The first video is actually pretty awesome. I love how you have so much space to run and the visibility is great.

Sonic Utopia... holy shit. I was just enamored watching that trailer the entire time. That's exactly the kind of 3D Sonic game I wanna play. ;_;

How can people find fault with that first video?? It's amazing. It looks like sonic controls perfectly. I'd buy a game built around those mechanics twice. I thought OP's Mario 64 moment comment was hyperbole, but after watching I totally agree.

That first video in particular (Sonic Utopia) looks extremely good. Loved it. And on the subject of Mario 64 moments: getting the movement mechanics nailed down first, before moving on to the implementation of objectives, is a sound approach:

http://shmuplations.com/mario64/

Interviewer: Mario 64 is the lead-off title for the new Nintendo 64… but how did the project first get started?

Miyamoto: Well, in the beginning… we were working on something really simple—deceptively simple, even... There was a room made of simple lego-like blocks, and Mario and Luigi could run around in there, climb slopes, jump around, etc. We were trying to get the controls right with an analogue 3D stick, and once that felt smooth, we knew we were halfway there... That’s how we make games at Nintendo, though: we get the fundamentals solid first, then do as much with that core concept as our time and ambition will allow... Yes, it was being able to move Mario and Luigi around with the 3D control stick, and being able to change the camera view with the press of a button. One of our big development themes was letting the players move Mario around any way they wanted. We wanted to make a game where just moving Mario around was fun...

It feels more of a proof of concept for movement and physics... And at that it avoids a lot of pitfalls past iterations on the concept of "classic sonic in 3 dimensions" have fallen into...

My takeaway from these videos is that they're trying to incorporate the physics based game play that made 2D Sonic games so appealing in a 3D environment without resorting to on-rails segments, straight corridors and automated loop-de-loops like the modern 3D games typically do...

On the subject of design philosophy, seemingly the biggest point of contention in this thread:

http://shmuplations.com/mario64/
Miyamoto: ...An eternal theme for me with game design has been to let the players create their own vision... I want a game that allows players to try come up with their own solutions and playstyles and test them out there on the spot... One of our big development themes was letting the players move Mario around any way they wanted. We wanted to make a game where just moving Mario around was fun... And yet, while we were all telling ourselves “walking around leisurely can be fun too!”, I have to admit that internally, I was a little worried… normally games have a faster pace... Truth be told, we did something with Mario 64 that we don’t usually do: we had children playtest it... seeing [my son] try dozens of times, over and over, to get up this unclimbable hill, as a parent I couldn’t help but think, “Geez, does this kid have any brains?” (laughs) Afterwards we asked the children what they thought of the game, and they said it was fun, and that they wanted to play it again. Up to now, I think there’s been this image with games that if you can’t beat it, it’s not a fun or good game, right? That’s a philosophy we’ve stuck to at Nintendo, too, but I figured that if a game was this fun to play even if you weren’t getting anywhere, well, it must be alright. Until this game, I was very skeptical about something like this being fun...

Interviewer: No, it really is a fun just wandering around doing nothing in particular. When I first played it, I spent awhile just running around the castle outside, swimming, jumping… it felt really good.

Miyamoto: That was our big gamble. We thought that half the people would just go straight into the castle, and half would hang out and explore outside, as you described. We made the game with that latter half of players in mind. I’m not saying that either way is “correct”, of course...

I'd rather explore open spaces looking for collectables with the speedy movement and slopes/physics toolset than run to a goal, just as I'd rather open spaces looking for collectables with Mario's jumping toolset rather than run to a goal. Both series will keep getting 2D entries, so I wish the 3D ones would make better use of the virtual spaces. The fact that fans are willing to go through the effort to make things like show there is a contingent of people who agree with this philosophy on 2D vs 3D platformer design.

...In 3D Mario games be it open ended or linear, it's fun to just see what Mario is capable of. Climbing on this, jumping on that and just seeing how you can interact with the environment is very fun. The same can be said for Sonic in a potential game like this. Just trying to figure out what you can do in such a massive world with Sonic running around like a maniac looks like so much fun...

I'm the programmer for this engine [Sonic Utopia]. I definitely think a happy medium can be found. This level is indeed designed as a bit of a playground so players can get used to the complex momentum physics, but we've got lots of ideas for the future, once we've perfected this process.

 

[Professor Beef]

Nice proofs of concept, but open world is exactly what I don't want from the Sonic series. It's the same reason why I think that CD is on the lower end of 2D Sonic.

Give me mostly-focused level design with 2-4 main paths over this anyday.

Agreed 100%. Open world isn't the be-all end-all like a lot of people think.

Why isn't there a SAGE 2016 topic on NeoGaf??

1) It's usually been confined to SonicGAF because...
2) Nobody else on GAF gives a shit, due in part to...
3) 9/10 Sonic-related threads on GAF are pure shit

 

[Waddle Dee]

Didn't know about that first fangame, actually. I like what both are trying to do. Utopia certainly looks like it controls better. I personally would like slightly more linear levels but I am interested in the possibilities of more open 3D Sonic levels.

Sonic Mania looks excellent so far, so I don't feel like I'll need to rely on Sonic fangames anytime soon but I'm always impressed by how good the Sonic community is when it comes to fangames and hacks. No other fan community comes close, honestly.

1) It's usually been confined to SonicGAF because...
2) Nobody else on GAF gives a shit, due in part to...
3) 9/10 Sonic-related threads on GAF are pure shit

This is so sad, but true. Goes to show that even the best gaming forums have deluded themselves into thinking that Sonic is somehow this worthless series. Of course, Sega is at least partially responsible for this due to them rushing out a few rather abysmal titles but well-informed gamers should know better then to lump all of a franchises' games into a dumpster simply because some were bad.

 

[Lucky Seven]

It is cool, but SEGA is now making the Sonic games that you want, too. They're changing what you can do with Sonic and constantly experimenting. So, that's cool too.

I've played so many polished 2D Sonic hacks, and I've played the good fangames. But, I come back to the mainline Sonic games always.

 

[ScientificPizza]

I'm still surprised that Sega hasn't tried the sandbox style world of Utopia. After all of their experiments it just seems like a safe bet

 

[D3VI0US]

Those both looks great, way better than any 3D Sonic Sega has ever released, Utopia especially looks fun and polished.

 

[Schopenhauerian]

In case folks missed the conversation that's in the comments section of the Sonic Utopia video:

I'm the programmer for this engine [Sonic Utopia]. I definitely think a happy medium can be found. This level is indeed designed as a bit of a playground so players can get used to the complex momentum physics, but we've got lots of ideas for the future, once we've perfected this process.

 

[Phediuk]

Man oh man, that Sonic Utopia vid.

I literally got more enjoyment out of that little demo than from the entirety of every post-Genesis Sonic game put together.

 

[BlazeHedgehog]

I dunno, neither Sonic Utopia or Green Hill Paradise are what I want out of a 3D Sonic game. They're impressive to a point, but there are a number of things I take issue with.

I mean, I'll reserve judgement on Sonic Utopia until the demo drops (which should hopefully be sometime in the next 48 hours?) but having played Green Hill Paradise, while it's an interesting experiment there's no way I could tolerate an entire game like that. It's over-complicated, claustrophobic as hell, and ultimately confusing to navigate.

Sonic Utopia looks like it might suffer some of the same problems, but in the opposite direction: levels are way too big and open, to the point where you have tons of empty space. That makes some sense given how fast Sonic can move, but... I guess I'll have to play it for myself to know how it really shakes out.

But both games seem to think the correct path forward for 3D Sonic is to build giant mazes that stretch out inorganically in all directions.

I also think they're way too keen to fetishize the Genesis games and there are certain gameplay ideas that seem to exist only as a "but we don't want to be too much like modern 3D Sonic" statement.

 

[Aquova]

Here's my two cents. The second video is a super cool proof of concept, where you can do crazy physics based stunts. People argue that it's too directionless, and I would have to agree. The only way to turn that into an actual game is to have Mario 64-style where objectives are hidden around the level. Is that too Mario-y for me? I'm not sure, 2D Sonic could be described as "Mario, but faster", but I'm not sure I want them to be that close.

The Sonic Utopia demo looks much closer to what my ideal game would be. I don't want open world like some people on here, but I want the ability to explore a stage, instead of it being narrow branching paths to the end. I would like to see larger, more open areas with regions to explore, funneling into a goal at the other end of the stage. This demo is the closest I've seen to that.

One step closer to a playable Sonic CD intro, I hope.

Forget what I said, this sentence got me really excited.

 

[Combichristoffersen]

Graphically they both look great, especialøy GHP, but in terms of gameplay.. What would you even do in a Sonic game like this? Collect thingamajigs or have objectives you need to clear around the level? Neither of those two are something I really want from a Sonic game.

 

[Teknoman]

Yo Sonic Utopia looks like a playable version of some of the things from Sonic OVA!

 

[SinCityAssassin]

Utopia looks really sick. It's a lot more aesthetically pleasing than Generations in my book. Cant wait to see it at a better framerate.

 

[Teknoman]

If they can develop a tight level design / non-collectable gameplay aspect around the core of Sonic Utopia, they've really got something.

 

[UnemployedVillain]

The first video makes me realize that Sonic levels in 3D have to be MASSIVE to work the same way they do in 2D.

 

[Professor Beef]

Graphically they both look great, especialøy GHP, but in terms of gameplay.. What would you even do in a Sonic game like this? Collect thingamajigs or have objectives you need to clear around the level? Neither of those two are something I really want from a Sonic game.

Exactly. People are too busy thinking about a sandbox without actually thinking about how that would impact how Sonic has always played.

 

[Stopdoor]

Exactly. People are too busy thinking about a sandbox without actually thinking about how that would impact how Sonic has always played.

I agree with people saying comments like this are lacking imagination.

I see this trailer, and looks just fun to control, fun to play. Should a game like this never exist unless it can be focused into a laser-tight game design? Not that I don't think it can be focused, but there's value in just that freedom, that movement, that exhilaration of just controlling Sonic.

I can think of a hundred ways you could probably make that compelling, if it's really needed. Hide things in the levels like animal canisters. Race challenges across long distances so you have to figure out your own ideal path and just enjoy the feeling of movement with that goal you crave. Some sort of "points for style" mechanic. Kind of like the old Tony Hawk games, in a way, I'd say? Like even if it's not your "cup of tea", these are easily ideas worth exploring.

Sometimes I just play the recent SSX, and just enjoy the feeling of snowboarding down a mountain. I don't really need racing, or points - it's the feeling that in the end is the main draw. And this trailer really nails a feeling, and that could be enough. "Goals" can feel artificial and a distraction from what's really fun about control.

Also, we've had 100 linear Sonic games. Do we really need to worry about "how Sonic's always been played"...?

 

[SoulUnison]

As somebody who's played and loved Sonic games, lots and lots of Sonic games, since almost the very beginning, I think Generations just about perfected what Sonic should be in 3D. The problem is simply that, by the character's very nature, he covers too much ground. So much work has to go into crafting beautiful HD environments that the player's only really going to see when they're not actually doing well at the game or have consciously stopped to smell the roses. Trying to go back to pure platforming over an endless void a la Lost World feels soulless and empty. Sonic games in 3D are just ridiculously design and labor intensive for a handful of polished 3-4 minute courses.

 

[Professor Beef]

Also, we've had 100 linear Sonic games. Do we really need to worry about "how Sonic's always been played"...?

Considering that the main argument has been "Sonic should play like the old games" for YEARS now and that the games should stop experimenting and just go with what works, then yes. Yes we absolutely need to worry about how Sonic has always been played.

 

[Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew]

Looks better than anything Sega has worked on post Sonic & Knuckles.

 

[Fahzgoolin]

I wasn't clicking on this thread all day because I assumed it would be kinda dumb.

Yo what the heck this looks incredible.

 

[BlazeHedgehog]

I agree with people saying comments like this are lacking imagination.

I see this trailer, and looks just fun to control, fun to play. Should a game like this never exist unless it can be focused into a laser-tight game design? Not that I don't think it can be focused, but there's value in just that freedom, that movement, that exhilaration of just controlling Sonic.

I can think of a hundred ways you could probably make that compelling, if it's really needed. Hide things in the levels like animal canisters. Race challenges across long distances so you have to figure out your own ideal path and just enjoy the feeling of movement with that goal you crave. Some sort of "points for style" mechanic. Kind of like the old Tony Hawk games, in a way, I'd say? Like even if it's not your "cup of tea", these are easily ideas worth exploring.

Sometimes I just play the recent SSX, and just enjoy the feeling of snowboarding down a mountain. I don't really need racing, or points - it's the feeling that in the end is the main draw. And this trailer really nails a feeling, and that could be enough. "Goals" can feel artificial and a distraction from what's really fun about control.

Also, we've had 100 linear Sonic games. Do we really need to worry about "how Sonic's always been played"...?

I'm just tired of the notion of "open world for open world's sake."

Open world is not inherently better than linear progression, yet every game wants to be open world these days. Doom was refreshing in that it had the courage to buck this trend and go back to a classic level structure.

Open world also used to mean something special. It used to mean having the freedom to define your own solution. Grand Theft Auto 3 is still a stellar example of open world game design, moreso than even GTA5, because often times GTA3 will give you a very simple mission objective like "Kill the owner of the strip club, Luigi."

How? That's up to you. You could plant a car bomb, you could snipe him at long distance, you could try to run him over, you could block his exits and ambush him with molotovs... The choice was yours. And maybe you'd choose wrong. Maybe you wouldn't kill him, you'd just spook him. Maybe you had a car chase that took you halfway around Liberty City, maybe the cops got involved. It was a living city that reacted to you.

Modern Open World games, like Assassin's Creed, don't really feel like that. Nowadays games are open world because instead of building dozens of tight, highly focused levels, they can make a big, messy singular environment that the player spends the entire game in. No longer does a level designer have to worry what comes between set pieces, because the world is always just there! Make the player collect a thousand eagle feathers or jump through some rings or something, I don't know!

Open worlds can feel like such a waste of time and resources.

Sonic games are one of the last that are usually very focused on scores and arcade-style mastery, and an open world would completely destroy that notion. At this point, that's a niche that Sonic does that not many other big budget console games dare touch. I'd rather keep that then to cash in on the shitty open world fad that every other game's chasing.

 

[Stat Flow]

Holy fuck at that first like. Like, what? Where did this even come from. There have been plenty of fan demos but this one...holy moly.

 

[Chezzymann]

I think sonic utopia could work if it becomes linear (as in you have to go from point a to point b and nothing else), but with really wide open levels similar to what was on the video and branching paths/elevations. Maybe secret areas too.