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[RocknRola]

Really? I find it strange that there could be any scene with 3 or more characters where characters don't refer to the player character indirectly. I'm pretty sure this has happened in a bunch of the pokemon games I've played.

It's easy to replace he/she with the character name in most situations (if not all) though.

So, for example "Wow! He beat the Elite 4! He is totally gonna be the Pokemon Champion!"

Can just become "Wow! [name] beat the Elite 4! [name] is totally gonna be the Pokemon Champion!"

Even if the speech may feel a bit forced by doing it like this, it does removes that headache, per say

 

[Captain Smoker]

I appreciate this post, I really do. But, you've got it all wrong, dude. It's not about Pokemon or about demanding change or even expecting it. It's just me letting people know that these types of people exist, and I just felt like I had to take advantage of this momentary bravery, or otherwise I might never. I think what I wrote required more self-respect than I've had in a long while, and it's only growing from here.

Also, you have no idea how many "toughen up" spiels I've gotten over the years - I was shaped by that rhetoric, and I largely follow it to this day. It's not bad advice by any means, but it doesn't really apply to my disposition or situation. Like you said, you don't really understand my situation but sincerely tried to help , so I'm not offended by any means. Honestly, I'm thankful that you took the time to write that out of a hope that it would guide me towards a state of self-acceptance and satisfaction.

However, this situation isn't something you can just trudge through blindly without expecting some sort of backlash from society at-large or even in some cases, your parents, so that's why I got to take my time with it.

I'm not whining, I'm not outraged. Like I said, I'm just here. How you react is all you, but I appreciate the honesty regardless.

Thanks for your reply.

As I already said, I'd lie if I tell you that I exactly understand you, but I understand the need to feel more respected and I read and applied a lot about this topic.
Reasons are different for us (and starting points probably), but the basic concept applies for all people because society works in certain ways.

As I already said "toughen up" is a meaningless phrase without the right advice, because the journey to be tough is the real thing and this is very individual,
but I'm sure you're going to figure it out by yourself with time and experience what works and what doesn't work. There is a lot of good stuff in the internet, see what works for you in the confidence department, I think this is a good starting point.

Therefore, good luck.


So, now I'm going back to work.

 

[Wanchan]

#2: X and Y always refers to the character by their nickname or "you" or "that trainer". I don't think they used a gendered pronoun once..

Doesn't work for French, that trainer is either "ce dresseur" (male) or "cette dresseuse" (female). Also, some of the verbs will have to end either in "é" if male or "ée" if female...

It's easy to replace he/she with the character name in most situations (if not all) though.

So, for example "Wow! He beat the Elite 4! He is totally gonna be the Pokemon Champion!"

Can just become "Wow! [name] beat the Elite 4! [name] is totally gonna be the Pokemon Champion!"

Even if the speech may feel a bit forced by doing it like this, it does removes that headache, per say

Doesn't work in french either, Champion implies Male, Championne is Female.

 

[GinoFelino]

Just wanted to thank everyone who responded to my post, or read it all the way through for all that matter. It's a tremendous feeling to "take the first step", and have it be acknowledged, regardless of how it's received.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alright, sorry for the long post everyone, I think I'll stop from derailing the thread further.

Seriously, thanks for your time.

Neah, thank you for sharing.

Also, that was the opposite of a thread derail. I hope it helped to provide some insight for the people who need it most. And there are some in this thread who dearly need it

 

[NoblesseOblige]

It seems every few months a new gender identity is made so its never going to satisfy anyone. And the option list will be a ridiculously complicated one.

Got some examples of these new gender identities you've encountered?

 

[KojiKnight]

Really? I find it strange that there could be any scene with 3 or more characters where characters don't refer to the player character indirectly. I'm pretty sure this has happened in a bunch of the pokemon games I've played.

I can't remember an instance myself, but it's true pronouns aren't super sexy things that draw a lot of attention and I recently replayed X in a nuzlocke.

Most of the time when people are in groups in that game, they awkwardly refer to you by your nickname.

Doesn't work for French, that trainer is either "ce dresseur" (male) or "cette dresseuse" (female). Also, some of the verbs will have to end either in "é" if male or "ée" if female...



Doesn't work in french either, champion implies Male, Championne is Female.

This is true... but I have to ask, if there is no elegant solution for the french translation, should ALL other versions be hamstrung?

 

[lifetimeofnot]

I'm all about tolerance and acceptance but fuck.... Now we shouldnt even be okay with deciding if youre a boy or girl? That's a new fucking level of sensitivity in my book.

I'm with you man. Its not asking if yout are personally a boy or a girl, it's asking if your charecter is. If you want to role play that your charecter is gender fluid thend feel free to do that but you shouldn't expect every game to cater to your very specific needs.

As another example the player characters in the Pokemon games are around 10-15 years old. I can't remember the last time I actually thought of one of them being that age. I don't imagine them as being almost 30 (like me) but I picture them as late teens, early 20 somethings.

 

[RocknRola]

Doesn't work for French, that trainer is either "ce dresseur" (male) or "cette dresseuse" (female). Also, some of the verbs will have to end either in "é" if male or "ée" if female...



Doesn't work in french either, Champion implies Male, Championne is Female.

I mean, yeah, doesn't work in any Latin language. The specific example was for English

 

[Stone Ocean]

It's a game meant for kids, they are not going to ask more than what you have between your legs.

 

[Gnome]

Maybe in the west, but I doubt they really give a toot in Japan where any gender social progress might as well be considered a miracle.

 

[KojiKnight]

Maybe in the west, but I doubt they really give a toot in Japan where any gender social progress might as well be considered a miracle.

TPC should care however, since while Pokemon is big in Japan, it's bigger outside of Japan and thus they should (and do) take other areas of the world into consideration when making their games (look at things like expanding the racial options for trainers).

 

[True Fire]

I saw the OP and had a feeling what this thread would turn into.

I think Gamefreak's best bet would be to remove the second person narrative, and make it more third person. "Is your trainer a boy or a girl?" or something less confrontational like that. I mean, I like to switch between the male and female characters between playthroughs, so it's not just about identity politics. It's just opening things up for players to play as whomever they want.

 

[Spieler Eins]

Jesus Christ, it's a game for goddamn 8-year olds.

 

[Hypnotoad]

Got some examples of these new gender identities you've encountered?

The question is not directed at me, but I recently learned that there are 31 recognized identities in New York, and more pop up every now and then, Facebook has already over 50 IIRC.

https://m.reddit.com/r/TumblrPls/co...nders/?utm_source=mweb_redirect&compact=false

 

[GinoFelino]

Jesus Christ, it's a game for goddamn 8-year olds.

Is that really the best post you could think of?

Come on now. Do some reading, do some thinking, and try again.

 

[Kalamoj]

Just switch to hungarian, there is no male/female bs here.
We just call everyone and everything 'it', no one cares what is your identity.

 

[Cepheus]

No, it's not outdated. The professor's asking you, as in, the trainer avatar, whether they are a boy or a girl. Also, they're just characters in a game... I don't get angry about there not being a female Link, nor do I get angry about there not being a male Samus.

 

[Spieler Eins]

Is that really the best post you could think of?

Come on now. Do some reading, do some thinking, and try again.

Go outside, join some real protests, instead of overthinking software aimed at half-toddlers.

 

[BocoDragon]

At least the game doesn't assume your gender. That's a step.

Maybe the future of character creation wouldn't include questions of gender, but would just offer a variety of physical traits and clothing/hairstyles from across various genders, and you could just mix and match them as you choose.

Go outside, join some real protests, instead of overthinking software aimed at half-toddlers.

To be fair, Pokemon today is probably trading on a lot on millennials knocking on the door of 30.

 

[LastCupOfSorrow]

We biologically have two genders. There are rare variations sometimes due to genetics but we mostly have boys or girls.

I think Pokémon has it spot on but I am only saying this from a scientific perspective, not from a social one.

Japan is different when it comes to these things. Probably why there is not an option for neutral.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

The question is not directed at me, but I recently learned that there are 31 recognized identities in New York, and more pop up every now and then, Facebook has already over 50 IIRC.

https://m.reddit.com/r/TumblrPls/co...nders/?utm_source=mweb_redirect&compact=false

My work firewall blocks archive.is, so I can't see what is listed beyond the preview. But first it's the Daily Caller, a pseudo-conservative/libertarian, so there's an obvious agenda with that. And going by the comments I've yet to encounter anything new. Most have existed for decades. Just because people are ignorant to things doesn't make them 'new'.

 

[Yoshi]

A better character creator benefits everyone

Please explain how this benefits me. I think personalisation is concentrated shit and it is annoying me extremely to have to create a character in a game. Even the question if I want to play a male or female character in Pokémon is very unwelcome. The developers should just choose as they like and be done with that. I want to play. The sex of my character, the skin colour, the height and so on do not concern gameplay and are therefore irrelevant nuisances.

 

[Shiggy]

Don't you get asked the same when you get your ID and passport? Gender is a natural thing one way or another. It's definitely not outdated and is here to stay forever until all humanity and a lot of other life forms have vanished.

 

[openrob]

I think it may have to be accepted that most of the worlds population operates on a the premise that gender is binary. Boys and girls - and that these genders are different.

What we are discussing here is the separation of physical gender, based on reproductive organs, from the cultural norms associated with each gender.
I believe your gender is your gender and that's that. If you want to act like and identify as the opposite gender, that's fine. But gender in itself *is* based on the physiological. What we should argue is that you are free to act however you want and should not be defined by cultural expectations.

All of this ties into deeper cultural issues en grained over thousands of years. This is NOT, in my opinion, a cultural debate that should be waded into by Pokemon.

Ok, this may be a better way of expressing what I would like to say haha

 

[Exploding8]

Wait, so just to clarify, is it now offensive to refer to people as "he" or "she" when talking about them to someone else? If a friend is having a baby, is it offensive to ask if the baby is going to be a boy or a girl since the fetus can identify as whatever it wants?

 

[KojiKnight]

Jesus Christ, it's a game for goddamn 8-year olds.

You do realize that children can have gender identify issues too right?

 

[Wiped89]

What we are discussing here is the separation of physical gender, based on reproductive organs, from the cultural norms associated with each gender.
I believe your gender is your gender and that's that. If you want to act like and identify as the opposite gender, that's fine. But gender in itself *is* based on the physiological. What we should argue is that you are free to act however you want and should not be defined by cultural expectations.

All of this ties into deeper cultural issues en grained over thousands of years. This is NOT, in my opinion, a cultural debate that should be waded into by Pokemon.

To the above poster, has it occurred to you that more and more children are struggling with gender issues precisely because they have been told they an be any gender they want? They are being confused by a culture that gives too much open choice. These issues did not exist 100 years ago.

 

[GinoFelino]

Go outside, join some real protests, instead of overthinking software aimed at half-toddlers.

Real protests? What is real to you? Who's protesting here anyway?

Pokémon is solely aimed at half-toddlers? Even so, you think it doesn't matter how kids are raised? What norms and standards they come into contact with? At what age do you figure kids can start to question their gender?

Don't be deliberately dense or dismissive. Come on, man.

 

[Chainsawkitten]

Don't you get asked the same when you get your ID and passport?

There are plenty of efforts to change that and in some places there already is a legal option of a third gender (or the absence of choosing one).

 

[Hypnotoad]

My work firewall blocks archive.is, so I can't see what is listed beyond the preview. But first it's the Daily Caller, a pseudo-conservative/libertarian, so there's an obvious agenda with that. And going by the comments I've yet to encounter anything new. Most have existed for decades. Just because people are ignorant to things doesn't make them 'new'.

Sorry, I can't access Google on my phone, so I had to resort to Reddit. But in that Reddit discussion is a link to the official New York City website with related information.

 

[Forkball]

Is that really the best post you could think of?

Come on now. Do some reading, do some thinking, and try again.

But do you really think Game Freak is thinking about the recent advancements in gender politics when designing Pokémon? The OP is such a loaded question. Obviously the inanimate game is not asking you a personal question, it's merely there to select your player avatar. They use a second person perspective for artistic reasons. It's not rocket science why they've framed it this way. It has nothing to do with Game Freak being unaccomadating to transgendered people.

 

[PantsuJo]

I'm kind of baffled. I get that people associate themselves with other genders and all, but I don't think that you should expect games to cater to a Frostsexual Nebulakin audience. Pokémon is already better than most games by letting you choose to be female. If you're transgender just pick the one you're more comfortable with. And in the end you're playing a character in a mainstream video game, not making a statement about yourself.

Right and simple.

This is the truth.

 

[oni-link]

Please explain how this benefits me. I think personalisation is concentrated shit and it is annoying me extremely to have to create a character in a game. Even the question if I want to play a male or female character in Pokémon is very unwelcome. The developers should just choose as they like and be done with that. I want to play. The sex of my character, the skin colour, the height and so on do not concern gameplay and are therefore irrelevant nuisances.

Well it would benefit the majority

I would imagine you'd be in the minority as most people don't hate character creators

A character creator that only lets you create men would suck for women, whereas one that lets you create male and female characters would be more beneficial for the majority of people

 

[Malrend]

Got some examples of these new gender identities you've encountered?

Not quite what you were asking about, but I only just recently learned of the Q being added onto LGBTQ.
Just 2 months I only ever encountered the term LGBT, now there is suddenly a Q added.

Upon learning what the Q stands for I'm left wondering "Why?"
Why force yourself into a category seemingly created solely for those who "don't quite fit anywhere else".
This, if anything should be a given, especially in the teen years when you're supposed to question everything and find your own identity. Then you don't need to label yourself "Questioning" because that should just be a natural part of the process of growing up.

However, I come from a generally very accepting society, which I'm sure still has had its own problems with non-binary orientations throughout the years, but throughout all of my own years these haven't been looked down upon in a communal sense, at least.
Which perhaps leaves me far less understanding of the need to categorise yourself outside of the norm.

Also, from my understanding the LGBTQ (which really should be HBTQ, linguistically speaking) community is also very much split between the different categories itself, and doesn't really have a hard united front. At least, I've heard a lot of stories about the LG not being as accepting of the B and T, and vice versa.
Which ultimately means that those of us who fall into the binary categories are bombarded with millions of different viewpoints from what is supposed to be a single community.. Quite easily leading to misunderstandings.

 

[Shiggy]

There are plenty of efforts to change that and in some places there already is a legal option of a third gender (or the absence of choosing one).

I don't envy people choosing the third gender when traveling. Must be a terrible experience when they go to countries not aware of such policies.

 

[GinoFelino]

But do you really think Game Freak is thinking about the recent advancements in gender politics when designing Pokémon? The OP is such a loaded question. Obviously the inanimate game is not asking you a personal question, it's merely there to select your player avatar. They use a second person perspective for artistic reasons. It's not rocket science why they've framed it this way. It has nothing to do with Game Freak being unaccomadating to transgendered people.

It's not a loaded question at all. It's just OP wondering whether they can do better.

The answer is yes, they can, and they probably should.

It doesn't really matter how it was originally intended or designed. It's how it should ideally be going forward.

 

[BocoDragon]

Well it would benefit the majority

I would imagine you'd be in the minority as most people don't hate character creators

A character creator that only lets you create men would suck for women, whereas one that lets you create male and female characters would be more beneficial for the majority of people

I agree with the other poster. I much prefer games that have authorial control over the narrative and determine characters for you. It's not a minority opinion at all. It's a fundamental type of game to have prescribed characters/story, and many people will prefer that.

But character creation games are cool too, even if they're my second choice.

The argument should be.... If a game is offering you character creation, how granular should that character creation be vis-a-vis gender?

 

[KojiKnight]

Right and simple.

This is the truth.

I get it... You guys think the games will go from

"Are you a Boy or Girl?"

To

"Are you a Boy or Girl or Transgender or Agender or....."

But in reality what it should go to is...

"How do you want your character to look?"

or

"Please choose a character and outfit that best suits you."

 

[SpeedNut]

Do kids... actually complain about this though? Or are you just projecting? I have yet to hear something like this from a kid

This all day. AFOP (Adult Fans of Pokemon) need to realize that when it comes down to it, it's a kids game. 2nd graders aren't worrying about gender identity, they just want to catch 'em all.

 

[GinoFelino]

This all day. AFOP (Adult Fans of Pokemon) need to realize that when it comes down to it, it's a kids game. 2nd graders aren't worrying about gender identity, they just want to catch 'em all.

Read up, man. That's not how it is. This isn't to appease 'AFOP' If anything, how you handle this is more important to kids.

 

[KojiKnight]

This all day. AFOP (Adult Fans of Pokemon) need to realize that when it comes down to it, it's a kids game. 2nd graders aren't worrying about gender identity, they just want to catch 'em all.

I don't know about you... but in second grade, I sure got told by both girls and boys that I needed to act more like a boy... and that's coming from someone who identifies and was born a male... To say kids don't have a sense of gender identity and don't make fun of or antagonize other kids who don't fit in to that is silly. And kids like that might WANT an outlet like Pokemon.

As I noted above, there ARE kids with gender identify issues even that young and there are multiple studies on the subject.

 

[Spieler Eins]

Real protests? What is real to you? Who's protesting here anyway?

Pokémon is solely aimed at half-toddlers? Even so, you think it doesn't matter how kids are raised? What norms and standards they come into contact with? At what age do you figure kids can start to question their gender?

Don't be deliberately dense or dismissive. Come on, man.

At Pokemon age, your perception of sex boils down to ,,ewww boys/girls" and dumb jokes.

 

[oni-link]

I agree with the other poster. I much prefer games that have authorial control over the narrative and determine characters for you. It's not a minority opinion at all. It's a fundamental type of game to have prescribed characters/story, and many people will prefer that.

But character creation games are cool too, even if they're my second choice.

The argument should be.... If a game is offering you character creation, how granular should that character creation be vis-a-vis gender?

Yeah and that's great that you prefer that, but that's not what the debate is about

It's about games that do, and on a basic level, the more options a character creator has in general, the better than character creator is likely to be

Adding female options doesn't stop someone who wants to create a male character, and adding an "other" gender option doesn't stop someone from playing as a male or female

Edit: In some games a character creator is better, in Pokémon I'd rather not play as Ash, and in the Souls games I'd rather not play as Johnny Souls

 

[Forkball]

It's not a loaded question at all. It's just OP wondering whether they can do better.

The answer is yes, they can, and they probably should.

It doesn't really matter how it was originally intended or designed. It's how it should ideally be going forward.

And we solve this issue how? "Please select which gender you personally identify with. Please select the sex of your player avatar."? Even if they had a drop down menu of fifty genders, you are still excluding someone. You can't please everyone, and since Game Freak assumes the overwhelming majority of Pokémon players to be either a boy or a girl, they went with those choices. I mean people understand why they have you select a boy or a girl, correct? And people are aware that with these choices they are not specifically going out of their way to demean others, yes?

 

[Melkezadek]

I've gotta say, the issue of gender is something that I'm pretty ignorant of it seems, judging from this thread. Been an interesting read, for better and for worse.

To compare it to something I can better understand, would it be like a game asking me if I'm black/African American? Cause that already irritates me on official forms and I would absolutely hate it if I were asked in a game.

I also like the style suggestion.

 

[GinoFelino]

At Pokemon age, your perception of sex boils down to ,,ewww boys/girls" and dumb jokes.

That might have been your perception, but you don't speak for everyone.

And we solve this issue how? "Please select which gender you personally identify with. Please select the sex of your player avatar."? Even if they had a drop down menu of fifty genders, you are still excluding someone. You can't please everyone, and since Game Freak assumes the overwhelming majority of Pokémon players to be either a boy or a girl, they went with those choices. I mean people understand why they have you select a boy or a girl, correct? And people are aware that with these choices they are not specifically going out of their way to demean others, yes?

Look at post #538, for instance. That would work just fine.

 

[Zombine]

The Boy/Girl role is to simplify it for children who are generally not yet aware of their own self. If a male child identifies more with the female avatar and vice versa then that is awesome!

What would be more compelling is if they introduced characters within the game that you as an individual can relate to, and gets children comfortable with all sorts of different identities.

 

[DemWalls]

I guess the best way to make everyone happy (kind of) is the Sunset Overdrive approach. Though, as some already said, pronouns and such may become a problem in some languages.

 

[Fliesen]

My work firewall blocks archive.is, so I can't see what is listed beyond the preview. But first it's the Daily Caller, a pseudo-conservative/libertarian, so there's an obvious agenda with that. And going by the comments I've yet to encounter anything new. Most have existed for decades. Just because people are ignorant to things doesn't make them 'new'.

the poster is also quoting via Reddit "TumblrPls"
which uses

in their sidebar.

Just for context...

 

[BocoDragon]

Yeah and that's great that you prefer that, but that's not what the debate is about

It's about games that do, and on a basic level, the more options a character creator has in general, the better than character creator is likely to be

Adding female options doesn't stop someone who wants to create a male character, and adding an "other" gender option doesn't stop someone from playing as a male or female

Edit: In some games a character creator is better, in Pokémon I'd rather not play as Ash, and in the Souls games I'd rather not play as Johnny Souls

So you agree with the last statement of my post that you quoted. Great!