Cheesehead302
Banned
Is this the real world??
Is the Pokémon "Are you a boy or girl?" thing outdated?
- Thread starter Flowmoney
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Storm Chamber
Banned
Since the target demographic for this game doesn't really care about this yet. I know you guys want them to care as much as you all do, and they probably will one day, but they're not sweating this shit.
Picture me telling my niece I couldn't buy her the new Pokemon game because I didn't agree with a gender issue.
But I have something even better for you instead, a ready-made Neogaf account in good standing! That's right, you don't even have to wait for approval, I pulled some strings iwth a few mods and was able to get it OK'd quicker because they felt the same way I do. Now, you can stay up to date with both gaming news AND societal issues, just like me! Isn't that great?"
It's not good!
I do find it a little troubling as well. But serious question, what is the transgender culture like in Japan? I imagine that a Japanese company would cater to their audience and how accepted the transgender culture is there may play some role, no?
I see quite a lot of people saying that there are only two biological sexes. That is simply not true; intersex people are pretty common. Usually, someone will decide they're male or female for them, but we can't just pretend they don't exist.
As for the player character not necessarily having to represent the player For most RPGs I would agree, but I think Pokémon is a special case. The character has no name, no dialogue, a very minimalist backstory, and can inherit the player's Pokémon from other games while technically changing identities. Not to mention they get to battle other versions of themselves and trade Pokémon with them, and that's completely integrated into the universe of the games.
I don't know, I just think of my Pokémon avatars as myself. "Serena" (whom I didn't call Serena) isn't any more of a character than a mouse pointer would be; very different from say, Commander Shepard (even though there is much less customization in Pokémon). And since it's a series for kids, I'm pretty sure it's the point--to make any child feel like they've gone on their own adventure, finding rivals and friends both in the game and outside of it, with no disconnect. That's why they decided to allow female avatars and different skin tones in the first place.
Now, of course people are free to see it differently.
Now, how to integrate something like that The characters are still kids, so there shouldn't be that many physical differences between genders anyway. Allowing all customization options for both genders would be a step in the right direction. Pronouns would be way more complicated, especially in languages where even adjectives are gendered.
As for the player character not necessarily having to represent the player For most RPGs I would agree, but I think Pokémon is a special case. The character has no name, no dialogue, a very minimalist backstory, and can inherit the player's Pokémon from other games while technically changing identities. Not to mention they get to battle other versions of themselves and trade Pokémon with them, and that's completely integrated into the universe of the games.
I don't know, I just think of my Pokémon avatars as myself. "Serena" (whom I didn't call Serena) isn't any more of a character than a mouse pointer would be; very different from say, Commander Shepard (even though there is much less customization in Pokémon). And since it's a series for kids, I'm pretty sure it's the point--to make any child feel like they've gone on their own adventure, finding rivals and friends both in the game and outside of it, with no disconnect. That's why they decided to allow female avatars and different skin tones in the first place.
Now, of course people are free to see it differently.
Now, how to integrate something like that The characters are still kids, so there shouldn't be that many physical differences between genders anyway. Allowing all customization options for both genders would be a step in the right direction. Pronouns would be way more complicated, especially in languages where even adjectives are gendered.
Sonic Boom
Neo Member
It seems GameFAQs is looking in on this thread right now and gnashing their teeth in outrage that this is even a topic.
But a lot of folks over there have nothing better to do than stew in conservative cultural anger and make attack helicopter jokes, so ain't exactly surprising.
But a lot of folks over there have nothing better to do than stew in conservative cultural anger and make attack helicopter jokes, so ain't exactly surprising.
Exactly, Pokemon is definitely not the franchise I would expect to tackle that sort of issue
Kssio_Aug
Member
Thats what I take from it as well.
I am 100% with those fighting for LGBTQ rights and recognition all around the world, and I do think this gender stuff has to be treated carefully nowadays. However, I'm not sure if this element in Pokemon should be treated as an issue.
I mean, let's suppose a trans is playing it and the game asks if he or she is a boy or a girl. He/she can choose whatever he/she identifies with.
BUT, I think they should just let you freely customize your character. So it doesn't need to look as a boy or a girl, it can look whatever the player want it to look like. That would be more appropriate.
QuantumSquid
Member
Being more inclusive would improve the game in my opinion, but it's such a minor thing that I don't see Game Freak doing anything about it any time soon.
God Dayumm
Banned
Does anyone have a Youtube link that goes over this? I've never played Saints' Row so I still have no concept of what this is or how it works.
purseowner
Member
I'm reading that now - fascinatingly intolerant opinions.
Can you guys please read the thread instead of making these boneheaded drive by posts
I agree. I wouldn't be surprised if Mass Effect: Andromeda provided the most gender-fluid and robust character creator given how inclusive they have been on NPC's in Mass Effect 3 and Dragon Age Inquisition.
While I know Pokemon has given the options for choosing gender and character customization as of late, I feel like the character avatar in Pokemon is ultimately pretty hollow and not Nintendo's priority in terms of crafting a "role-playing experience". I feel like the "role playing" aspect comes more with regards to grooming your Pokemon team.
While I wouldn't object to Nintendo including the options in any game, I have a feeling it just wouldn't be one of their development priorities for this franchise. If any the Nintendo franchise that should spearhead this should be Animal Crossing, which has more of a focus on living a virtual life and still doesn't even allow you to choose your skin-tone (unless of course you like tanning).
Children question gender very early on. Like I said in a post above, I had a friend that didn't identify as being a boy in fourth grade. At least that's when they told me about his struggle. I, of course, didn't really know what they meant since I only knew the world from my own cis-gender prospective. I asked my mom about it and she explained what they were going through. This was back in the 90s when Pokémon first came out, by the way.
That's a stroke of great parenting, in my opinion. If this became a norm, we probably wouldn't have so many people be as abrasive toward this issue.
Children should be exposed to these ideas early on, as it will bring more tolerance in the world.
pretty done
Member
Seems like those two games are the exception to the rule. I dunno why the title is about Pokemon when Mass Effect, Souls, Dragon Age, Elder Scrolls (even different races only have M/F), Fallout, etc all do the same thing. It's the norm for character creators to just have a male/female option.
I always pick a girl in every game and I'm a 27/white/male so I guess I'm not the problem.
Top looks like boys and bottom looks like girls.
So are you going to point out where anyone said you shouldn't buy the game or you just want to pull out dumb arguments out of a hat?Since the target demographic for this game doesn't really care about this yet. I know you guys want them to care as much as you all do, and they probably will one day, but they're not sweating this shit.
Picture me telling my niece I couldn't buy her the new Pokemon game because I didn't agree with a gender issue.
: "Sorry baby, Uncle Storm Chamber couldn't bring himself to buy you that new Pokemon game you wanted for Christmas. Turns out the developer Game Freak was still using their non-inclusive gender option from way back when I was playing these games, and I just couldn't let you be party to that nonsense because that's not the hill we want to die on.
But I have something even better for you instead, a ready-made Neogaf account in good standing! That's right, you don't even have to wait for approval, I pulled some strings iwth a few mods and was able to get it OK'd quicker because they felt the same way I do. Now, you can stay up to date with both gaming news AND societal issues, just like me! Isn't that great?"
: "W-....what?!"
It's not good!
I'm not against it. I applaud what Saints Row has been doing. And I enjoyed the extra lines in Animal Crossing about cross-dressing.
But I have a problem when people start dictating what developers should be doing. I haven't ever gone very far into any Pokemon game, but I presume that maybe the chosen gender plays a role that's more than cosmetic later on. In the end I'd rather not assume that anything is not deliberate developer intent.
Also are you actually a developer? I am a software engineer, and in my experience "A pallete swap/few lines of text for a game like Pokemon adds such a small amount of time." is definitely not a true statement.
Looks like a pretty definitive difference to me. Also, literally the next game after gen 4:
GiantBreadbug
Member
Let me clarify:
General outrage about lack of gender-fluidity in videogames makes sense and is not trivial.
Being particularly upset at Pokémon when it seems to be an industry standard is trivial.
I can see how my previous post may have been unclear, for which I apologize. I very much agree with the idea that it's something that a slider or something might be good for. Or just better fleshed out character creators in general coupled with a sensitivity toward this issue.
General outrage about lack of gender-fluidity in videogames makes sense and is not trivial.
Being particularly upset at Pokémon when it seems to be an industry standard is trivial.
I can see how my previous post may have been unclear, for which I apologize. I very much agree with the idea that it's something that a slider or something might be good for. Or just better fleshed out character creators in general coupled with a sensitivity toward this issue.
Since the target demographic for this game doesn't really care about this yet. I know you guys want them to care as much as you all do, and they probably will one day, but they're not sweating this shit.
Picture me telling my niece I couldn't buy her the new Pokemon game because I didn't agree with a gender issue.
: "Sorry baby, Uncle Storm Chamber couldn't bring himself to buy you that new Pokemon game you wanted for Christmas. Turns out the developer Game Freak was still using their non-inclusive gender option from way back when I was playing these games, and I just couldn't let you be party to that nonsense because that's not the hill we want to die on.
But I have something even better for you instead, a ready-made Neogaf account in good standing! That's right, you don't even have to wait for approval, I pulled some strings iwth a few mods and was able to get it OK'd quicker because they felt the same way I do. Now, you can stay up to date with both gaming news AND societal issues, just like me! Isn't that great?"
: "W-....what?!"
It's not good!
Why are you creating such a ridiculous and unrealistic example in order to prove your "point"?
Who here says they will no longer be purchasing pokemon because of it? Who said that they wouldn't purchase pokemon for family members?
I mean, I know why your creating such a terrible example but I don't wanna say it, your post shows it in spades.
God Dayumm
Banned
Storm Chamber
Banned
Of course not, because I'm well aware this didn't happen. I'm no newcomer to this gaming board thing, I know good and well gamers will whine all day about a game or something in a game just to end up buying it day one anyway.
Relax, loosen up...I'm just having fun with it. Isn't that ultimately why we're here?
Sonic Boom
Neo Member
To the topic in question I don't think there's anything wrong with "Are you a boy or a girl?" It's fine. And forgive me if I'm wrong, I haven't played since Gen 1, but it's kind of a staple of the series at this point, isn't it? I've seen memes tailored around it, so I assume that to be the case.
I'm all for trans rights, but this isn't a thing that's worth caring about. Of course, that won't keep the absurd people on the other side from screaming their heads off about SJWism if Nintendo ever decides to change it, for whatever reason... but that's to be expected at this point.
I'm all for trans rights, but this isn't a thing that's worth caring about. Of course, that won't keep the absurd people on the other side from screaming their heads off about SJWism if Nintendo ever decides to change it, for whatever reason... but that's to be expected at this point.
KojiKnight
Member
"Why Pokemon" you ask?
"Why not Pokemon?" I counter.
True, there is no reason to single out Pokemon, but likewise there is no reason why Pokemon can't step up. Animal crossing made big strides allowing boys to wear dresses and girls to wear pants... This isn't much beyond that.
Then that's your problem.
Considering the reaction to the thought of there being more than two genders that I see (not just in this thread, mind you, it's a concept that seems to throw people off a lot), I think the most elegant solution is the "appearance picker" one where it just asks "what do you look like" and gives the male and female options as appearance options. Granted, this can still run into the issue of pronouns, and we might have to stick to having "he" and "she" depend on character choice, at least until the usage of singular "they" becomes more acceptable in professional/official contexts.
Snowybreak
Member
Saints row 2 didn't have a binary male or female setting, it had a slider that would determine body type. Even though they went back to a binary select in 3 and 4, you can still modify everything in a fine-tune fashion and all characters can wear all clothes.
Edit: holy shit I just realized that Saints Row is insane with how much you can change your character. 2 was deeper customization, but you could always change your body type in game, no matter what. Everything was also always really gender neutral, weird to think that of all games to be so inclusive it was Saint's Row.
We are here to discuss video games. Its a forum after all, taking the piss with stupid examples to ignore someone elses point for "all in good fun" does not make a valuable discussion, you are contributing nothing by doing so and are only annoying people who do take this discussion more seriously.
If you have nothing to say or nothing to contribute and just "wanna have fun" then please, by all means go into the OT of your choice to talk about the game of your choice. If you do want to continue in this discussion then please stop acting so willfully ignorant and creating shit examples while continuing to ignore others viewpoints and engaging them.
God Dayumm
Banned
It would be amazing if there was no choice in the next Pokemon game and you would have to play as a black male transgender lesbian. I can't imagine the shitstorm.
Skellig Gra
Member
Eh maybe but I'm not sure why it matters, its not reality its a game where you are playing as someone else. Every time I try to "re-create myself" in a game its typically some sort of frankensteins monster type thing.
But you can get a haircut? Not to mention, the characters are supposed to be 10 years old.
purseowner
Member
You're complaining that you can't relate to this game's representation of 'male', and yet you can't see that you're far more catered for than non-binary folk, etc. whose representation in this game simply isn't there?
Edit: Perhaps misinterpreting, but still seems an ironic complaint within the context of this thread.
Storm Chamber
Banned
Ahh, you'll be alright.
As an answer to the thread title: absolutely, and it's of course not limited to Pokémon. I think it's great we can point to areas of improvement in games we like to make them even better to more people. I'd applaud Game Freak for improving the options; not just because it makes Pokémon better, but because in the vein of "success follows success" every developer who does it contributes in normalizing it so that in the future it might come naturally to developers to think about this stuff.
God Dayumm
Banned
No, this is important. How can non-binary people, trans-male people and cis-male people be catered to if one end of the spectrum is not even properly represented?
Isn't intersex an umbrella term for a wide array of medical conditions? If you were born with male and female parts, or some mix of both, that doesn't mean there's a third biological sex. Biologically, there's one that produces sperm cells and one that produces egg cells. There's not a third biological sex that produces a third kind of cell necessary for reproduction.
When it comes to identifying as another gender than male or female, I'm a bit confused... Some of the more "mainstream" ones at this point like genderfluid or demigirl seem to be defined in relation to the two binary genders. Genderfluid isn't a gender by it's own definition, it's a state where your gender identity fluctuates somewhere between male and female. A demigirl is someone who "partially" identifies as a woman, so it's still tied to the two binary genders. Idk, I don't really understand it at all.
I know I'll be all right. I'm following the rules and engaging in a discussion that I enjoy engaging in.
Your the one making jokes, terrible examples, veering on shitposts. You take the fun out of this discussion but ultimately (hopefully) you'll either leave or choose to seriously engage in this topic and hopefully this topic will remain alive regardless of your choice and ultimately I'll continue to partake in it.
But go on, continue taking the piss. Please do be more creative in your examples, if your not gonna bother in this discussion at least provide something worthwhile.
EDIT: Bye Felicia!
xZoneHunter
Member
Is it really that important for people to shape their avatar like themselves? It's called role-playing games for a reason. You can have diversity but don't take it too far with ludicrous things like this.
Besides, if they do opt for a more extreme diverse choice of avatars they have to incorporate that in the story (like Mass Effect) Otherwise what's the point?
Besides, if they do opt for a more extreme diverse choice of avatars they have to incorporate that in the story (like Mass Effect) Otherwise what's the point?
purseowner
Member
I agree that more extensive customisation would be welcomed, but at least your pronouns are respected and you're able to play and enjoy the game without being misgendered. The lack of non-binary acknowledgement is surely a bigger issue.
themagicalkitsune
Member
No one said it's an offensive concept, it's merely a suggestion to let you be more versatile with the gender you choose for your character. The only people acting offended here are the ones thinking "PC culture" is trying to ram their beliefs down their throats - but no one is doing that.
Edit: oh wow I skimmed through the thread. What a cesspool
Conkerkid11
Member
What is the pronoun used to refer to a non-binary person? What does a non-binary person look like?
Genuinely curious.
Then you're looking for an extremely elaborate character creator or a game to let you 3D scan in your naked body because selecting from precrafted parts is never going to cover everyone. It's logistically a different issue from gender.
Honestly, I never role play as my irl self in games so in the end none of this bothers me.
perfectchaos007
Member
Should gamefreak and all other video game companies who currently use a binary gender option in their games handle selection the same way as Facebook? Honestly, if I didn't identify as male or female, and I'm given a list of 50+ gender options and my gender STILL isn't represented, I would be more disappointed
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