Is the Pokémon "Are you a boy or girl?" thing outdated?
- Thread starter Flowmoney
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thank you. perfect example. of course there's slightly more effort than just doing a find/replace on "he/his/her/him". But let's be serious here - this is Pokemon, not War and Peace. The total effort for the localization team would be negligible.
it's hard to "measure" because gender as a non-binary spectrum, that's something not many are aware of. When you have people that are confused by the difference between gender identity vs gender roles vs biological sex, i have doubts that there'd be a respresentative study that would create any meaningful numbers.
Scientist Supreme!
Banned
How about people stop these mental gymnastics and come out with there true feelings on this topic. Because I tired of people acting like this incredibly simple and reasonable suggestion is some upfront to mild mannered people. If you seriously have a problem with this do better then the same bullshit we hear in these or just say what you really mean.
FarFromAnyGame
Banned
It's not even a criticism!
Lord of Ostia
Member
Yes it is a bit more work, but a more robust/less restrictive character creation suite for Pokemon is a net benefit for everyone who plays the games. More options are good for everyone. Should we stop expecting Pokemon to evolve or add new mechanics or revamp things? I mean, do you remember how upset many people were that they backtracked on character customization for OR and AS? People want to see character creation expanded in the series, so why not expand it in a way that represents as many people as possible?
SapphiCine
Member
Bruh pls.
I like how having more options and not strongly reinforcing the binary to kids is needlessly complicating things. This is why nonbinary people have a tough time, even within the LGBT/MOGAI community.
To add to this, language is also constantly evolving and changing. Gender neutral terms could be introduced into every romantic language if the governments so desired, to be honest. Of course, something to this scale is not an overnight change, but it's totally possible.
Non-binary gender is something that I honestly cannot get my head around (to be fair, reading this is the only time I actually gave a serious thought about it.), but fixing it to be more inclusive is such a non issue that I can't see why people would be up in arms against it.
Roni
Member
Not for everyone, that's a benefit for part of the audience that cares about that. And I'd even go further and say it's only truly a benefit for an even smaller percertage: the part of the audience that cares about that but isn't currently represented.
I'd rather have a new combat system, or new breeding mechanics or anything that actually relates to the game itself.
And assuming it's a 'bit' more work is truly infuriating to hear.
I think many in this thread very much appreciate posts like this. thank you.
it's also why it is important to discuss these things on gaming side.
Lord of Ostia
Member
You probably won't ever fully understand because you are not someone who doesn't fit into the gender binary. I certainly don't fully understand, as I've never experienced what that's like. All you have to do is attempt to understand, respect their identity, and encourage inclusiveness.
purseowner
Member
'fuck you, got mine'
People are not up in arms against the inclusion, they're [hypothetically] mad at the idea that their fave game is not perfect.
Just look at, for example, Soulsborne games fans that will flip out whenever you offer valid criticism.
It's the exact same thing, just happens that the criticism is socio-politically charged in the issue of gender inclusion.
Scientist Supreme!
Banned
I wish people should drop this children thing. It sounds the same as people of Fox News thinking that kids can't fathom the idea gay people.
I can think of one reason but they're too afraid of being banned to go that far.
Roni
Member
Except I don't get mine when I play Tomb Raider, or Max Payne, or Uncharted, or GTA: San Andreas, or Sleeping Dogs.
And all the same, I'd rather those games stick with their envisioned characters for the benefit of the gameplay. So, yeah, nice try, but no.
Lord of Ostia
Member
OK, but are the concerns of someone who wants more robust character creation less valid than yours because you'd rather have new combat mechanics? I would argue they are equally valid, and if a more robust character creation was implemented, every player would benefit from it. You may not appreciate it, but a lot of people would. Just because you don't care about improving certain aspects of a game doesn't mean other people can't, or that their opinions shouldn't be heard.
Actually, that's incorrect, and the crux of this discussion. The game is not asking who you want to play as. The game is literally asking if YOU are a boy or a girl.
Honestly, I think all it needs to do is change its wording.
ViolentP
Member
It's the intolerance that gets me.
"I want this..."
"Why?"
"Fuck you! You're part of the problem!"
There is an effective way of communicating needs. Anger is not one of them.
It's asking for that so it can give you a character model in the game. If you want to wear boy clothes then choose the Boy option and vice versa.
As for the pronouns, that would be an extra step they need to implement in which the professor asks you how you'd like to be addressed (which I don't see happening since Nintendo's target demographic probably hasn't reached a point where they would even be thinking about that). It has nothing to do with being assigned a body.
Yup
Roni
Member
Again, I'd wager most players wouldn't even notice it.
From experience, it's easy to throw around 'a lot'; but how many are there, really? Is the monetary investment for developing such a feature worth it?
On top of the lack of empathy, notice how this person is suggesting changes and additions that Game Freak should make to make them happier, and magically no one is arguing against them that they're in violation of Game Freak's holy artistic vision.
Why is it that it's okay to demand mechanics changes in games that go against the intent of the creator, but the moment someone asks for gender or racial inclusiveness suddenly gamers get up in arms about censorship and meddling in the holy vision of the artist? Why don't we all just be quiet and take whatever products we're given; no complaints, no suggestions.
I wager everyone would notice the change of the trainer customization system which is necessary to start the game than whatever breeding mechanic you could pull out of your ass considering most people don't like or partake in Pokemon breeding.
BulletBees
Member
No. It's Pokemon.
In a semi related issue, i don't understand how Pokemon games that have customization don't allow you to crossdress when Animal Crossing games allow you to crossdress to your hearts desire.
It's so weird, one would think if one game allows you they'd give free reign for other games to let you.
I kind of want to say TPC must be to blame for that.
I mean, we are at a point in time where even freaking Link has been allowed to crossdress!
It's so weird, one would think if one game allows you they'd give free reign for other games to let you.
I kind of want to say TPC must be to blame for that.
I mean, we are at a point in time where even freaking Link has been allowed to crossdress!
Wow, what a thread.
If you want the actual personal opinion of a genderqueer person, I can throw mine out there? I'm not really offended by binary gender options in games at a time like this. Like, I have realistic expectations right now out of mainstream media. That being said, the phrasing of the question and it being binary is becoming outdated. I would like it if more games went with the "gender slider" or more open method.
If you want the actual personal opinion of a genderqueer person, I can throw mine out there? I'm not really offended by binary gender options in games at a time like this. Like, I have realistic expectations right now out of mainstream media. That being said, the phrasing of the question and it being binary is becoming outdated. I would like it if more games went with the "gender slider" or more open method.
I mean Gamefreak is almost comically known for taking out loved features and ideas. They are weird.
Which already includes two gender options, ergo the ship has sailed. If you don't want your game "genderized" or whatever, you should probably be advocating for the elimination of an on-screen trainer at all. Or at least a franchise that forces everyone to use a preset character.
Gotta admit that first person pokemon would be a pretty cool concept.
Roni
Member
I'll admit the word notice is perhaps not the one I'd use in retrospect, it's perhaps the word use.
Doesn't it have choices for biological sex, not gender identity?
Tyraniboah
Member
It's never really mattered to me personally. I don't know that "outdated" is the right term, especially when the amount of people identifying themselves as anything but what many think of as stereotypical males and females is likely a small percentage of the global population.
However, why not include the option for those that do have different gender identities? What's there to lose here? As I see it, doing so would almost assuredly earn some good will from many consumers and probably gain more sales than either what they lose or what the extra effort will cost.
I consider myself a regular guy, but I play Mass Effect almost exclusively as a female character (though that has more to do with voice acting but still) and I mix up my choice for playthroughs on Fire Emblem and other games like Sunset Overdrive. Ultimately, I don't think gender has to define each and every one of us and it's certainly possible to identify with characteristics of any character regardless of who or what they are. So while I'm not sure that outdated is the term I'd use to describe what you speak of, I can't fathom any reason why Nintendo should not include more options for the folks that do care. I would deem it a sound business move if nothing else
Edit: after reading some more posts, perhaps outdated is what we are looking for. I get the whole "gender isn't binary" point being made
However, why not include the option for those that do have different gender identities? What's there to lose here? As I see it, doing so would almost assuredly earn some good will from many consumers and probably gain more sales than either what they lose or what the extra effort will cost.
I consider myself a regular guy, but I play Mass Effect almost exclusively as a female character (though that has more to do with voice acting but still) and I mix up my choice for playthroughs on Fire Emblem and other games like Sunset Overdrive. Ultimately, I don't think gender has to define each and every one of us and it's certainly possible to identify with characteristics of any character regardless of who or what they are. So while I'm not sure that outdated is the term I'd use to describe what you speak of, I can't fathom any reason why Nintendo should not include more options for the folks that do care. I would deem it a sound business move if nothing else
Edit: after reading some more posts, perhaps outdated is what we are looking for. I get the whole "gender isn't binary" point being made
100% of Pokemon players use the trainer customization option because it is necessary to start the game. You have to choose your gender and/or name your trainer in every title. That is automatically more people who ever even touch the annoyance that is breeding.
Roni
Member
Not even what I'm talking about, pal. Of course all people will go through the character creator. I'm talking about using the option to browse through millions of clothing options and choosing a feminine outfit for your male avatar for every different part of your body. If given the option, most people are all about next, next, finish.
CrunchyFrog
Member
Itt people assume that a game where you role play and catch monsters is attempting to itself make or force you to make some definitive statement on who you are as an actual human being.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
Well thought out and articulated inquiries from you two chaps. Yes this is the real world, and no it's not sarcasm. Any more thought provoking questions you'd like answered?
That takes even less effort to implement than non-binary gender choices and dialogue since all you have to do is to not lock the existing clothing options to any male or female player avatar. It's literally no work whatsoever.
It depends on how you look at it, because a transwoman can still choose to be a woman, and vice versa for a transman.
PapaEmeritus
Member
99% of the world "identifies" what they are born as, why should the largest population have to not choose what they want to play as? Also technically it's a kids game. I wouldn't want to explain to my kid wtf gender neutral is because of today's society.
whoa, the holy trifecta
* percentage pulled straight from the butt, also wrong
* 'fuck you, got mine'
* i wouldn't want to have to raise my kid as a tolerant, open minded person
bonus points for "kid's game"
... but also refreshingly honest
At least you're not arguing some boogeyman of "they'd likely have to cut an entire town to save the costs they spent on making the game more inclusive"purseowner
Member
Was about to quote that, but you've got it all covered. The inverted commas on 'identifies' and the implications of noting 'today's society' were icing on the horrible tasting cake.
NinjaCoachZ
Member
This thread is giving me flashbacks to that Max thread from a few weeks ago. Jesus fucking christ.
Roni
Member
That's not the way it works, man. If the avatars are exactly the same, then that's possible. But they're usually not because of, you know, biological differences.
ITT: Cis people think trans and non-binary people are at some sort of huge ethical impasse over this because they like exaggerating people's arguments over something they personally don't give a shit about because they're already being catered to.
What are you asking in the bolded? Are you asking why you should have to be burdened with choosing your gender? If so, that's what you've done since the third generation. All people are asking for is a third option, or perhaps just to skip all of that and unlock clothing options a la GO's system, a system that 99% of the world didn't care about either.
Also, if you wouldn't want to explain to your kid what gender neutral is, that's your personal problem, not the world's.
You failed to understand the first point of my post. I'm not disagreeing that introductions of this concept through any form of medium will have an effect on acceptance. I am arguing that due to current sociological "norms" it will be difficult for Nintendo to be the one to break the mold.
Believe it or not, despite me having a vagina I can wear men's outward clothing. Yes indeed, pants and shorts do not inhibit the efficiency of my genitals. The same is also true for people with a penis wearing skirts and dresses. Magical, isn't it? If anything, you people with all that junk down there should appreciate a breeze every now and again.
Also, if the models are significantly different in 3D that you literally can't just plop the clothes on without clipping or any other errors, all you have to do is scale the clothes properly. Seriously, there's like a little scale option in every 3D software that allows you to reshape models. This isn't hard. You're making it hard.
Captain Europe
Member
And why wouldn't you want to? Why do you see it as such an awful thing?
ViolentP
Member
I think people for the most part have the right to act as they please. Logistically speaking, I don't see how any sort of interactive media could possibly consider every type of gender people relate to. Fact is, they could add 300 different possibilities. But that 301st that was left out has just as valid an argument as those wanting their options. So how is that to be handled?
The only thing I can realistically come up with is a singular, predetermined character that everyone will share removing the feeling that you are that character entirely. It's the only fair option I can think of.
Personally, I don't think it's bad. But as with most things, it has an ability to become extreme. I would gladly teach my child gender neutrality and allow them to choose freely. But I won't lie, if my child starts telling me they relate as a pig or a dragon, I will create boundaries.
I'm pretty everyone who expresses an opinion that says they would be against this because they have a prejudice against transgendered people would be banned. Hence, the mental gymnastics.
I don't se how, as i have posted before, even tho Animal crossing does lock your default avatar in a sex, the game also allows you to dress according to your gender identity regardless and also allows to customize what the villagers call you.
If they have done it before, i don't see how current sociological norms would stop them from extending that much gender expression freedom into pokemon games.
my exact thought too
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