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Westworld - Live in Your World, Play in Ours - Sundays on HBO

Ignatz Mouse said:
I'm fully bought into the two timelines thing, and I'm even down with William = MiB. However, one thing puzzles me-- why keep it a secret? Why not just allow the audience to know? It's not like it's less compelling with that knowledge. In fact, it's making the show *more* enjoyable to me and less random-seeming.

Am I alone in this?
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I think they're probably trying to distance themselves from the other shows that have flashbacks as a their character development dump, also it keeps the MiB mysterious whereas if we know who he is then half the point of his character (mysterious gun man without a name, classic western trope) is lost. This is a show in which tropes are king, and they're there to be subverted.
 
I'm starting to think William is more supposed to be a "how A Man in Black IS made" than "how THE Man in Black WAS made".

I think no matter what there are supposed to be parallels between both William and the Man in Black, but I also think while William'a story is supposed to start similarly, it will also payoff differently.
 
I think Elsie is my favourite character right now so perhaps this is projecting but I can't help but notice she is around 30 years old and we have flashbacks set around 30 years ago...
 
Just a thought, in episode 4 we saw Bernard talking about the maze during a session with Dolores. But, how does he know about it ?
If the maze is Arnold's creation... and Bernard was only introduced to Arnold's story by Ford...
 
okdakor said:
Just a thought, in episode 4 we saw Bernard talking about the maze during a session with Dolores. But, how does he know about it ?
If the maze is Arnold's creation... and Bernard was only introduced to Arnold's story by Ford...
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Some people think those interviews are actually Arnold in the past, and Bernard is just a host in Arnold's image.
 
Ferrio said:
Some people think those interviews are actually Arnold in the past, and Bernard is just a host in Arnold's image.
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Mib only really seems vaguely aware of Arnold and he knows about the maze.

There are clues to it in the park so I imagine Bernard keyed in on it that way.

Maybe noticed this weird maze drawing Ford was planting in the park and in hosts and just asked him about it.

I think it is intended to be some sort of test for the hosts. Thus the hosts being reluctant to talk about it to mib and saying it isn't meant for him.

May be part of the religious theology planted for or created by the hosts that Maeve is discovering.
 
Ferrio said:
Some people think those interviews are actually Arnold in the past, and Bernard is just a host in Arnold's image.
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Wait, what? Arnold was a white guy in the picture we saw. And all this just ignores Bernard's backstory with the dead kid and his wife.
 
Edzi said:
Wait, what? Arnold was a white guy in the picture we saw. And all this just ignores Bernard's backstory with the dead kid and his wife.
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Bernard is a host Arnold and his wife isn't real. Potentially. Or that would be the theory.

Some pretty weird dialog between Ford and Bernard and Meredith sort of makes it seem like he's a host.
 
Edzi said:
Wait, what? Arnold was a white guy in the picture we saw. And all this just ignores Bernard's backstory with the dead kid and his wife.
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1) Ford seems to be a unreliable character with other motives
2) If Bernard is a host, that backstory is just implanted much like Teddy's
 
ZOONAMI said:
Mib only really seems vaguely aware of Arnold and he knows about the maze.

There are clues to it in the park so I imagine Bernard keyed in on it that way.
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Eh I don't buy it. Bernard didn't even know of Arnold's existence until a couple episodes ago, so him somehow knowing about the maze seems fishy.
 
The whole religious doll thing of the hazmat guys is reeeeaaaallly weird too. That park staff wouldn't be aware of it and very concerned by it? That they are essentially creating their own religion is a pretty hefty dose of off script sentience.

There is a lot of shit going down that makes it seem like the staff really isn't keeping a very close eye on things despite cameras being everywhere and staff actually being in the park on a regular basis. I would imagine they have video feed from every single host as well. Its a problem because we are also given the impression they are keeping a very close eye on things based on scenes and dialog.

Thats really the biggest hole in this whole timeline theory. We know they are aware of Dolores being off loop and they really aren't concerned by her doing some sort of weird solo quest? We know they are monitoring her and even gave the order to retrieve her and she's supposedly just all zoned out on a train by herself with clear chronolgical progression from when they have the order to pull her? I don't buy it. We really don't think they have gps tracking on her and a camera in the train she's chilling in? Or direct feed access to her fucking eyes and a recording of everything she has been doing? The progression of Thor sr giving the order and a sheriff either employee or host trying to pull her was clear as day. Explaining that away with blah blah it already happened once before doesn't work because they still didn't pull her after going off loop. The only explanation is Ford knowing Dolores is developing sentience again and just letting it happen, but everything we have seen from Ford tells us he doesn't want that to happen and he really doesn't give a fuck about the hosts. The whole theory I just don't see how they can execute it without there being a big wtf from the audience. If they prove me wrong I'll be a happy camper but at this point I feel it's already far too drawn out and pointless.

I just don't see how they can explain all of this away without huge fucking plot holes.

Interstellar had giant plot holes so I guess I shouldn't expect there not to be.
 
WhiteRabbitEXE said:
oh my god the Bernard host theory desperately needs to stop.
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Why? Lol. I'm more on board with that than I am with the timeline theory.

To me ep 3, 4 and 5 all killed the mib = william theory but people still soldier on with that mainly because of logos.

The logo was really the only semi concrete that theory has going for it and each of the subsequent episodes had scenes that 90% killed the theory for me. Much less to work with as far as ruling out Bernard being a host.
 
Just caught up to episode 5. Show is losing me. I'm pretty fucking confused to be honest. The only person who seems to have a clear objective is the MIB but I don't really get what the other characters motivations are or where any of this is leading too. I'm going to keep watching but I'm losing intrest. Gonna read the rest of the thread tho, maybe things will start making sense.
 
ZOONAMI said:
I would imagine they have video feed from every single host as well. Its a problem because we are also given the impression they are keeping a very close eye on things based on scenes and dialog.
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You think that'd be something they'd have, but I wonder if it's an issue about the guest's privacy? People are doing some of the most hideous shit imaginable, I doubt they wanna be watched. I mean there's kid hosts for christ sakes, you know there's some sick fucks in there that wanna remain anonymous.
 
ZOONAMI said:
Why? Lol. I'm more on board with that than I am with the timeline theory.
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It's terrible and has absolutely no sound logic in its favor beyond people really, really wanting a character to secretly be a host for God knows what reason. Just like how people insisted the Man in Black was host against all reason. Seems like the Bernard host theory got more popular once everyone finally gave up on the Man in Black being one.
 
Ferrio said:
You think that'd be something they'd have, but I wonder if it's an issue about the guest's privacy? People are doing some of the most hideous shit imaginable, I doubt they wanna be watched. I mean there's kid hosts for christ sakes, you know there's some sick fucks in there that wanna remain anonymous.
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Behavior notes that they log every sexual encounter, even in sleep mode.
 
WhiteRabbitEXE said:
It's terrible and has absolutely no sound logic in its favor beyond people really, really wanting a character to secretly be a host for God knows what reason. Just like how people insisted the Man in Black was host against all reason. Seems like the Bernard host theory got more popular once everyone finally gave up on the Man in Black being one.
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Not really, before I even started reading this thread it seemed like Bernard was a host. The way Ford talks to him, his backstory, his mannerisms...it's pretty much in your face tbh.
 
Bernard is a host is almost as bad as Deckard being a replicant...

So one of the top guys, tasked with monitoring and adjusting the behavior of the hosts, is a host himself! No conflict of interest there. Ford against his express warnings has created the very thing he warns his creation about doing? Ok then.
 
Buba Big Guns said:
Not really, before I even started reading this thread it seemed like Bernard was a host. The way Ford talks to him, his backstory, his mannerisms...it's pretty much in your face tbh.
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Yep. Way more obvious. Thought he was a host well before reading any theories online but was oblivious to any timeline shenanigans until I started reading this thread.
 
Buba Big Guns said:
Not really, before I even started reading this thread it seemed like Bernard was a host. The way Ford talks to him, his backstory, his mannerisms...it's pretty much in your face tbh.
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I massively disagree. Any argument I've seen its favor has been born of massive over-/misreading and/or a need to "figure out which human is a host" because people have already decided a human character must be a host.

There is nothing in his mannerisms that says unhuman to me and I'm not even sure where's that's coming from, particularly for one to call it "in your face". His backstory is that he had a kid that died and that death ruined his marriage with his wife (who we've seen him talk to) and that he came onto Westworld sometime after the original hosts had largely been decommissioned. As far as his interactions with Ford are concerned, we've learned from those and his scenes with Dolores that he's probably trying to push the hosts to true consciousness, possibly for the purpose of replacing his son. So I'm getting literally nothing here. And if you bring up the "I know how that head of yours works" line... Come on.
 
Flo_Evans said:
Bernard is a host is almost as bad as Deckard being a replicant...

So one of the top guys, tasked with monitoring and adjusting the behavior of the hosts, is a host himself! No conflict of interest there. Ford against his express warnings has created the very thing he warns his creation about doing? Ok then.
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Totally not out of the realm of possibility for Ford honestly given we don't really know what the fuck he's about especially if you believe the timeline theory where he apparently is cool with Dolores developing sentience, again...
 
For what it's worth, almost everyone I've discussed the show with has independently come up with the possibility that Bernard is a host.
 
Flo_Evans said:
Behavior notes that they log every sexual encounter, even in sleep mode.
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Oh yeah. Man I bet Westworld could make a killing on blackmail.

Flo_Evans said:
Bernard is a host is almost as bad as Deckard being a replicant...

So one of the top guys, tasked with monitoring and adjusting the behavior of the hosts, is a host himself! No conflict of interest there. Ford against his express warnings has created the very thing he warns his creation about doing? Ok then.
Click to expand...

That's only if we believe Ford's motives are 100% what he says they are. Maybe he also wants the hosts to gain consciousness. He sees himself as a god, but that's not really true unless his creations actually become sentient.
 
Re: the timeline theory. Have they ever gone back and forth from behind the scenes to what's happening in the park when we are watching william/logan scenes? I'm not sure it has, yet during MiB scenes it goes back and forth and we see them operating the logistical stuff as he does what he does. i.e. the match part, among other scenes.

That is +1 evidence on the timeline theory if it is true that is. I'm not onboard this theory but it was something I thought about. Because the staff/inside might look much different than it does so they just don't show it. But they could just feel there has been no reason to show it.
 
ZOONAMI said:
Totally not out of the realm of possibility for Ford honestly given we don't really know what the fuck he's about especially if you believe the timeline theory where he apparently is cool with Dolores developing sentience, again...
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Actually, not to derail and it has been mentioned in this thread if the timeline thing is true is it sentience? If true she is literally in her own footsteps so it at least makes you wonder if there really is any free will, did whatever Arthur do doom her to be a pawn even if she was aware?
 
ZOONAMI said:
Totally not out of the realm of possibility for Ford honestly given we don't really know what the fuck he's about especially if you believe the timeline theory where he apparently is cool with Dolores developing sentience, again...
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Ford has said his motivations.

"My father told me to be satisfied with my lot in life. That the world owed me nothing. And so, I made my own world."

He also yells in the trailer "I made every bit of this world, do you think you can just take it from me?!"

He has a serious god complex. He knows people are plotting to take the park over. He knows the hosts are a few lines of code from rebellion.

What is interesting to me is his conversation with Dolores and the Arnold MiB stuff. He says do you remember who I used to be? Then do you remember Arnold who created you. Then to MiB he says ask me anything, and MiB says he wants to hear from Arnold and he just kind of smirks. Also William throws out the line "whoever created this place doesn't think much of people"

I believe a lot more that Arnold transferred himself into host Ford, and doesn't want the other hosts to gain sentience, because he likes being their god. OR maybe its more simple and he is a Human and doesn't want to be killed by robot uprising.

Whats interesting is he tells Bernard they made the park together (him and Arnold) but everyone else he acts like he did it.

Still I think all this is probably more red herrings and jerking the audience around.

Ferrio said:
That's only if we believe Ford's motives are 100% what he says they are. Maybe he also wants the hosts to gain consciousness. He sees himself as a god, but that's not really true unless his creations actually become sentient.
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Thats a very good point.
 
-Pyromaniac- said:
Re: the timeline theory. Have they ever gone back and forth from behind the scenes to what's happening in the park when we are watching william/logan scenes? I'm not sure it has, yet during MiB scenes it goes back and forth and we see them operating the logistical stuff as he does what he does. i.e. the match part, among other scenes.
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Yes, though arguably not as directly. When Dolores was found to be off-loop they asked if she was with a guest and suggested collecting her, and then we immediately see a host attempt to collect her before it verified that she was in fact with a guest.
 
Ferrio said:
Oh yeah. Man I bet Westworld could make a killing on blackmail.
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They would not remain in the business much longer.

However think about how much Big Data they collect, in order to tailor the park to guests desires, and keep they returning. A huge lot of Data of what scumbag the humanity is.
 
Alright.

The thing with this Bernard theory is that we're already seeing a clear and compelling motivation for his character unfold. We know he's dealt with loss - both from his child dying and his wife leaving him afterwards. We know that he's invested in creating true consciousness, true sentience in the hosts. Ford hints that he suspects the latter is due to the prior, which is likely correct. Bernard sees an ambitious, though potentially dangerous progression for hosts that at least partly encompasses "replacements". Basically, he's kind of a more fleshed out version of Professor Allen Hobby, William Hurt's character from A.I. Artificial Intelligence (more people need to go back and give that movie another chance by the way). He also directly serves as Ford's foil when it comes to what the hosts are and what they could be.

Bernard suddenly being a host throws out all of that and replaces his arc with the far less compelling story of a robot that didn't know it wasn't human. I say far less compelling, as that's already half of the cast. In particular, Maeve's arc, which seems to center around her discovering her lack of humanity and coming to terms with that - we don't need it again with Bernard. And then of course we'll see Dolores develop along her own path to "enlightenment" as the show continues, and presumably many other hosts coming to terms with who the really are.

Bernard being a host doesn't really add anything to the show, but rather takes away from it, and serves no real compelling purpose.
 
Man. I have been bummed all along at how mundane West World is. Like why do all the hookers in town only have two breasts and no penises? Then my boy comes out and presents a bunch of gold chicks and I was psyched that things were about to get weird but then... they just kind of had a regular debaucherous orgy.

This show is retroactively making itself worse. That whole business of The Boring Girl swatting a fly was supposed to be this big shocking thing but in the episodes since, we've seen all kind of hosts injure all kinds of guests. I'm not going to take the time to sit down and diagram it out, I suppose the violence could be taking place in a different timeline than the fly-slap, but it's seriously undermining the dramatic stakes. Meanwhile she hasn't hurt anybody since. Show is still a Rubik's cube getting solved in the slowest possible way. I feel like every episode there's one thing that makes me think "oh shit yeah it's on now!" but then they just drop whatever cool thread they had picked up by the time the next episode starts.
 
Brakke said:
Man. I have been bummed all along at how mundane West World is. Like why do all the hookers in town only have two breasts and no penises? Then my boy comes out and presents a bunch of gold chicks and I was psyched that things were about to get weird but then... they just kind of had a regular debaucherous orgy.

This show is retroactively making itself worse. That whole business of The Boring Girl swatting a fly was supposed to be this big shocking thing but in the episodes since, we've seen all kind of hosts injure all kinds of guests. I'm not going to take the time to sit down and diagram it out, I suppose the violence could be taking place in a different timeline than the fly-slap, but it's seriously undermining the dramatic stakes. Meanwhile she hasn't hurt anybody since. Show is still a Rubik's cube getting solved in the slowest possible way. I feel like every episode there's one thing that makes me think "oh shit yeah it's on now!" but then they just drop whatever cool thread they had picked up by the time the next episode starts.
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She just shot like 4 guys. Are some of you even watching the show?
 
Buba Big Guns said:
Not really, before I even started reading this thread it seemed like Bernard was a host. The way Ford talks to him, his backstory, his mannerisms...it's pretty much in your face tbh.
Click to expand...

Jeffrey Wright always has a measured clean-my-glasses-while-talking way of acting. Even in BoJack. Making him a host would be a cheap and unnecessary twist. Unless he sells it and makes it really interesting how Bernard deals with it as a character. I just don't see it working well.
 
It's interesting to see that whilst some are strictly in one camp, others are in the other when it comes to the split timeline thing.

The fact that each episode has only reinforced either side in their conviction is what's really interesting.

Hell, I started as a non-believer but I grew increasingly suspicious of it all until E5 put me in the believer camp.
 
Kuros said:
They were hosts I think he's talking about real people.
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Still, the point of the fly scene was probably to show that Dolores, a host who was likely programmed to literally never want to kill/hurt anything, had developed enough to actually kill a fly. It was supposed to show that they were evolving, that's all.
 
Brakke said:
Man. I have been bummed all along at how mundane West World is. Like why do all the hookers in town only have two breasts and no penises? Then my boy comes out and presents a bunch of gold chicks and I was psyched that things were about to get weird but then... they just kind of had a regular debaucherous orgy.

This show is retroactively making itself worse. That whole business of The Boring Girl swatting a fly was supposed to be this big shocking thing but in the episodes since, we've seen all kind of hosts injure all kinds of guests. I'm not going to take the time to sit down and diagram it out, I suppose the violence could be taking place in a different timeline than the fly-slap, but it's seriously undermining the dramatic stakes. Meanwhile she hasn't hurt anybody since. Show is still a Rubik's cube getting solved in the slowest possible way. I feel like every episode there's one thing that makes me think "oh shit yeah it's on now!" but then they just drop whatever cool thread they had picked up by the time the next episode starts.
Click to expand...
Actually while not addressed entirely on the show ,in interviews( I forget if it was Nolan or Brubaker) that the further out you get, the more dangerous a situation they are programmed to rough you up but without lasting injury, enough pain and fear to make it seem like their is real stakes.

Since Dolores is usually on a short loop based on save or ravish the farm girl, sometimes with teddy flood (which when you really consider the loop she is in it makes Ford's not friends comment all the more menacing) there is no need for her to have any violence programming. That's why her shooting a host(same as the fly) is monumental, she shouldn't even be able to use a gun as per her encounter with teddy.
 
Could it be possible that the man in black is the survivor from the film? He mentioned they were more mechanical in the past (which it appears they were in the movie). He could have returned, emulating the gunslinger, to try and get back to that high where there are real stakes. And I'm sure the company would give him carte blanche for the whole ordeal.

But I haven't seen the movie and I'm not sure if it's even cannon in the show. So I'm just pulling this right outta my ass.
 
Edzi said:
Still, the point of the fly scene was probably to show that Dolores, a host who was likely programmed to literally never want to kill/hurt anything, had developed enough to actually kill a fly. It was supposed to show that they were evolving, that's all.
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not probably. That was definitely the point.
 
Brakke said:
Man. I have been bummed all along at how mundane West World is. Like why do all the hookers in town only have two breasts and no penises? Then my boy comes out and presents a bunch of gold chicks and I was psyched that things were about to get weird but then... they just kind of had a regular debaucherous orgy.
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Ya you gotta admit, for being able to create life from nothing they're being pretty damn boring about it. Where's the elves, cat girls, etc. Hell they could of made a real life DnD world.
 
Edzi said:
She just shot like 4 guys. Are some of you even watching the show?
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Four toasters. And hosts "kill" hosts all the time. So it's not some crazy unprecedented action.

Matty77 said:
Actually while not addressed entirely on the show ,in interviews( I forget if it was Nolan or Brubaker) that the further out you get, the more dangerous a situation they are programmed to rough you up but without lasting injury, enough pain and fear to make it seem like their is real stakes.

Since Dolores is usually on a short loop based on save or ravish the farm girl, sometimes with teddy flood (which when you really consider the loop she is in it makes Ford's not friends comment all the more menacing) there is no need for her to have any violence programming. That's why her shooting a host(same as the fly) is monumental, she shouldn't even be able to use a gun as per her encounter with teddy.
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Yeah I get that stakes are higher further out. It's just the pilot made such a big deal out of none of the hosts hurting flies but then it's just like "except for some of them that do it all the time"? Meanwhile Dolores already shot a host before this episode so it definitely wasn't monumental here.

There's a fundemental problem in the show where it's basically left the hosts undefined. Like where do their "routines" exist? You can obviously replace a "role" in the story with a different "actor" (Dolores's dad). And they repair robots but ~can~ you transfer one robot's personality to another host? Do the bodies contain processing units or whatever or is it all streamed from some central server? How much variation is there between hosts? Is there one common runtime differentiated by config files or do different hosts run different code? It's all so murky. It's impossible to tell what is an unusual emergent quirk of the system operating to design versus what is totally unprecedented.

Ferrio said:
Ya you gotta admit, for being able to create life from nothing they're being pretty damn boring about it. Where's the elves, cat girls, etc. Hell they could of made a real life DnD world.
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If you can't go to West World and have sec with mpreg Sonic what is even the point imo.
 
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