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Westworld - Live in Your World, Play in Ours - Sundays on HBO

It is though, for her and how she was programmed.

Yup. She's explicitly programmed to be nonviolent (she couldn't even fire a gun at generic targets when prompted by Teddy). Even William picked up on that, which is why he was shocked as hell when she went Rambo. It was highly significant. She has now both killed a living thing (albeit something as simple and innocuous as a fly) and gone completely out of character/programming with an incredibly violent act (albeit one perpetrated against hosts). both of which far exceed her programming - they're major developments.
 

Brakke

Banned
You guys are talking about "her" programming but we really don't know if there's programming that is uniquely hers.

It sucked how they replaced her dad's character model as a Big Intriguing Moment but then didn't follow up with it at all. Does New!Dad have the same personality as Old!Dad? Did they update her childhood memories to accommodate a new Dad personality? Does she even have childhood memories?
 

KHarvey16

Member
You guys are talking about "her" programming but we really don't know if there's programming that is uniquely hers.

It sucked how they replaced her dad's character model as a Big Intriguing Moment but then didn't follow up with it at all. Does New!Dad have the same personality as Old!Dad? Did they update her childhood memories to accommodate a new Dad personality? Does she even have childhood memories?

Memories are like the fundamental thing propelling these hosts toward "freedom".
 
You guys are talking about "her" programming but we really don't know if there's programming that is uniquely hers.

Being explicitly non-violent is "uniquely" hers (I'm sure there are other hosts too, there's 2,000 after all, but it's one of her defining character traits as defined by the programming) - many hosts are capable of being violent or explicitly programmed to be violent.

Being incapable of killing a living thing is a trait programmed into all hosts.

It sucked how they replaced her dad's character model as a Big Intriguing Moment but then didn't follow up with it at all. Does New!Dad have the same personality as Old!Dad? Did they update her childhood memories to accommodate a new Dad personality? Does she even have childhood memories?

They did, to a small extent. When Dolores started her mental breakdown before going off-loop she looked at New Abernathy and her mind replaced him with Old Abernathy, which is what really started pushing her off the edge. She does have memories (particularly pre-programmed ones - though we've seen that real memories can bleed into programmed ones, especially in dreams and through the now-removed (?) reveries), though presumably it's quite easy to swap in and out faces in hosts' memories to accommodate host-swaps.
 

Brakke

Banned
Memories are like the fundamental thing propelling these hosts toward "freedom".

Sort of. Back when they were talking about "reveries" before the show totally abandoned that thread, the idea was that the robots would be able to access some limited form of past experience. But Dolores never had a childhood, just a bunch of memories of previous loops, potentially in different roles. Did they implant experiences or antecdotes or just impressions like "I love my daddy"? The space between scripting and "improvisation" is totally undefined and a serious weakness of the show. How can anyone care about Dolores when we don't even know what Dolores is?
 

KHarvey16

Member
Sort of. Back when they were talking about "reveries" before the show totally abandoned that thread, the idea was that the robots would be able to access some limited form of past experience. But Dolores never had a childhood, just a bunch of memories of previous loops, potentially in different roles. Did they implant experiences or antecdotes or just impressions like "I love my daddy"? The space between scripting and "improvisation" is totally undefined and a serious weakness of the show. How can anyone care about Dolores when we don't even know what Dolores is?

They certainly didn't abandon reveries. They are the "why" for like half the show. They even talk about them specifically as memories of past experiences in their loops that were otherwise overwritten.

Backstories are implanted whole. Don't you remember the scene with Teddy getting his back story? Ford explains it in detail. I really don't think what they are is ambiguous.
 
I'm really hoping we get a moment in the show along the lines of when it was revealed the dinosaurs were breeding in the Jurassic Park novel.

Basically, after Grant finds the eggshell Ian has them change the park's computerized tracking system to search for more animals, and then Muldoon, Wu, Arnold, Gennaro, and Hammond all start freaking out as the system starts printing out bigger and bigger counts before settling at 54 over expectations (including 29 extra raptors).

Hammond sat forward. "What the hell is that?"
"We picked up another compy."
"From where?"
"I don't know!"

Hammond turned to Wu. "They can't breed, can they?"
"No," Wu said.

Total Animals 270

"Where are they coming from?" Arnold said,
"Damned if I know," Wu said.
They watched the numbers climb.

Total Animals 283

"Christ," Muldoon said. "There are raptors free in the park."
"Well, it's not that bad," Hammond said, looking at the screen. "We have increases in just three categories-well, five categories. Very small increases in two of them . . ."
"What are you talking about?" Wu said, loudly. "Don't you know what this means?"
"Of course I know what this means, Henry," Hammond said. "It means you screwed up."
"Absolutely not."
"You've got breeding dinosaurs out there, Henry."
"But they're all female," Wu said. "It's impossible. There must be a mistake. And look at the numbers. A small increase in the big animals, the maiasaurs and the hypsys. And big increases in the number of small animals. It just doesn't make sense. It must be a mistake."
 
Sort of. Back when they were talking about "reveries" before the show totally abandoned that thread, the idea was that the robots would be able to access some limited form of past experience. But Dolores never had a childhood, just a bunch of memories of previous loops, potentially in different roles. Did they implant experiences or antecdotes or just impressions like "I love my daddy"? The space between scripting and "improvisation" is totally undefined and a serious weakness of the show. How can anyone care about Dolores when we don't even know what Dolores is?

They abandoned the thread about "reveries"? That's the whole reason any of this is happening. Maive has basically figured a bunch of shit out because she can remember. They have shown already that the robots can improvise off each other and guests and do a lot of other things that's basically like AI. We could say who we are is because of our past experiences, so give the robots the ability to access past experiences and well we are seeing the effects.

And why care about Dolores? What is she? Well she is an organic robot in a theme park who's loop is a rape fantasy for park guests who is now becoming sentient and escaping that. I think that's pretty interesting.
 

ZOONAMI

Junior Member
They abandoned the thread about "reveries"? That's the whole reason any of this is happening. Maive has basically figured a bunch of shit out because she can remember. They have shown already that the robots can improvise off each other and guests and do a lot of other things that's basically like AI. We could say who we are is because of our past experiences, so give the robots the ability to access past experiences and well we are seeing the effects.

And why care about Dolores? What is she? Well she is an organic robot in a theme park who's loop is a rape fantasy for park guests who is now becoming sentient and escaping that. I think that's pretty interesting.

They kind of did abandon it. Bernard brought it up that it was a problem that caused Abernathy wigging out. Ford explained that that was true, but it would be sort of weird to not correct it, as u would assume it would happen again. It seems weird that no one is pushing to correct the obvious bug. Maeve seems like obviously they havent. But it doesn't seem like Meredith would just drop it given her character development to this point.

And yeah it hasn't been brought up since episode 2, so that qualifies as abonadoning it imo.
 

Brakke

Banned
All but like three people think the reverie update was rolled back. Why isn't anyone in Behavior paying attention at all.
 

ZOONAMI

Junior Member
Were they monitoring things in the past as heavily as they are in the present?

Logan mentions that they monitor everything very closely If you subscribe to the alt timeline theory.

The current timeline scenes also suggest they are keeping a close eye on things, but at the same time they are apparently oblivious to what Dolores is doing but at they same time aren't because thor sr gave the order to pull her and the didn't because she was with william as sequenced anyway, which straight up is major plot inconsistency at this point if there is an actual alt timeline. You can't dismiss it because chronologically they would have pulled her by now if she was alone and not with guests.
 
They mentioned that the update was pulled and updated hosts were rolled back to earlier builds. So "officially" the reverie update is no longer out there. However we still keep seeing hosts behaving incorrectly, particularly Maeve, so it seems that the update wasn't fully pulled (someone lied or the update was more "thorough" than expected) or older software builds are still be affected anyway, for reasons unknown.

Also, we know that, regardless of the reverie update, that information is always there, since they don't actively remove old memories/data etc.., just mark it as open for overwriting, and that the data already could pop up in "normal" dreams. The reverie update was just to allow it to additionally pop up in, well, reveries. The aberrant behavior was just believed to be a side effect of that specific update, but it may not actually be. So as long as there's a way for the old data to trigger aberrant behavior, the reverie update need not be in play anyway.

Plus, we already know the issues are partly spreading through verbal commands (particularly "the violent delights..."), so there's more at play.
 
Because while the update may have been kick-started things, it was Arnold's deeply embedded codes that caused the current behavior in Dolores and Maeve

"These violent delights have violent ends" is a trigger phrase much like the "deep and dreamless slumber"
 

ZOONAMI

Junior Member
They mentioned that the update was pulled and updated hosts were rolled back to earlier builds. So "officially" the reverie update is no longer out there. However we still keep seeing hosts behaving incorrectly, particularly Maeve, so it seems that the update wasn't fully pulled (someone lied or the update was more "thorough" than expected) or older software builds are still be affected anyway, for reasons unknown.

Also, we know that, regardless of the reverie update, that information is always there, since they don't actively remove old memories/data etc.., just mark it as open for overwriting, and that the data already could pop up in "normal" dreams. The reverie update was just to allow it to additionally pop up in, well, reveries. The aberrant behavior was just believed to be a side effect of that specific update, but it may not actually be. So as long as there's a way for the old data to trigger aberrant behavior, the reverie update need not be in play anyway.

Plus, we already know the issues are partly spreading through verbal commands (particularly "the violent delights..."), so there's more at play.

Right. Totally spaced that they did that massive host pull out and rollback.
 
Logan mentions that they monitor everything very closely If you subscribe to the alt timeline theory.

The current timeline scenes also suggest they are keeping a close eye on things, but at the same time they are apparently oblivious to what Dolores is doing but at they same time aren't because thor sr gave the order to pull her and the didn't because she was with william as sequenced anyway, which straight up is major plot inconsistency at this point if there is an actual alt timeline. You can't dismiss it because chronologically they would have pulled her by now if she was alone and not with guests.

When that lady said Dolores had run off and Thor asked if she was with a guest, she said she wasn't sure.
 

Jinfash

needs 2 extra inches
Watching the movie right now. I knew going in that William and Logan's storyline was supposed to be an homage to it, but so far it's eerie how much the characterizations are faithful.

And the fact that the movie was made in the 70s drive home the theory of the split timelines. Even the part about hosts being more mechanical back then... Not only that, but considering how some used the fact that hosta around William and Logan were bleeding as a way to debunk the theory, I can see how the movie can be the counter argument as hosts here also bleed. Just as much too.

Finally, for now, a quote from a scene where scientists were investigating the rise of malfunctioning hosts:

"We're not dealing with ordinary machines here. These are highly complicated pieces of equipment, almost as complicated as living organisms. In some cases they've been designed by other computers."

Translation: Arnold, Bernard, and heck why not even Ford are all hosts. 😱
 

duckroll

Member
Btw, am I just misremembering or are there a number of unique motifs and language use in the pilot which completely disappears after the pilot? The thing with the flies on their faces and not reacting to it seems to no longer be part of the show in any way. The use of the term "newcomers" to refer to guests is absent too. Still looking forward to some follow up on Elsie's lesbian tendencies too. They better not have dropped that one!
 

Jinfash

needs 2 extra inches
And now I'm just realizing another bit that was an homage to the movie: the guests who went black hat with Hector's crew, only to be disarmed/arrested, were going to be locked up until "one of the girls from the Mariposa sneak them a key in their breakfast."
 

Brakke

Banned
Btw, am I just misremembering or are there a number of unique motifs and language use in the pilot which completely disappears after the pilot? The thing with the flies on their faces and not reacting to it seems to no longer be part of the show in any way. The use of the term "newcomers" to refer to guests is absent too. Still looking forward to some follow up on Elsie's lesbian tendencies too. They better not have dropped that one!

Yeah that's been a holdup for me. It really feels like a different thing that you shouldn't read as iron-clad consistent with the subsequent episodes. Like I caught Teddy swatting at flies an episode or two back and thought that was going to be a thing, but there weren't any flies at all this last episode. Nor between the first and Teddy's swats. So I think that's just not a thing anymore.

I watched that first ep three times tryna get a handle on everything but I guess subsequent directors weren't paying as much attention to the pilot as we did lol.
 

Kai Dracon

Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
Btw, am I just misremembering or are there a number of unique motifs and language use in the pilot which completely disappears after the pilot? The thing with the flies on their faces and not reacting to it seems to no longer be part of the show in any way. The use of the term "newcomers" to refer to guests is absent too. Still looking forward to some follow up on Elsie's lesbian tendencies too. They better not have dropped that one!

Those things seem to be missing after the pilot. I thought the pilot was shot and completed before any filming on the other 9 episodes of season 1 began. To me it feels as if there is a slight tonal shift from the pilot, which I guess is to be expected if pilot production was handled a bit differently.
 

ZOONAMI

Junior Member
When that lady said Dolores had run off and Thor asked if she was with a guest, she said she wasn't sure.

Yeah and then the very next scene is a sheriff character trying to pull her as Thor ordered and then william says nope.

And then they still haven't pulled her and she's supposedly just doing all this shit in Pariah by herself? The remark about her being off loop seemed to be about her wandering off the ranch, not going all the way to pariah.
 

duckroll

Member
There's something that's somewhat consistent that I've been noticing:

Episode 2:
- Opening scene is Dolores walking out of her house at night. Then she hears a voice. Do you remember? Then it immediately transits into the introduction with William and Logan on the train.

Episode 3:
- Dolores is tidying her room and finds the old gun in the drawer from the night before. She looks in the mirror and hears a voice. Do you remember? Then it shows her encounter with MiB where he tells her it's time to reacquaint themselves. Start at the beginning. The gun is now gone from the dresser. The next scene is William in Sweetwater.

Episode 4:
- Dolores is alone in Las Mudas, suddenly she sees Lawrence's daughter at the fountain when she wasn't there before. She says she's from the same place as her, "don't you remember?" and then Dolores hears a voice. Remember! Dolores sees memories of the old church and the old town. There is a drawing of the maze in the dirt now. Then the girl is gone. The sheriff comes for Dolores but William stops him.

Episode 5:
- Dolores is alone in the open graveyard. She hears the bell chiming in the wind. It reminds her of the church bell Ford mentions in episode 2. She has visions of the church and the graveyard in the church. She hears a voice. Find me. And she replies Show me how. Then she's with William and Logan and they head to Pariah together.

- Episode ends with her on the train with William and Lawrence. She sees the maze drawing on a coffin. She says, I'm coming. Lawrence and William are gone from the train.

I think Dolores' journey is very clearly written to be bother a journey of remembrance. She is retracing steps she took before one way or another, and William is thematically tied to her journey. It's an open question as to whether William is MiB, because the show leaves just enough doubt for both sides, but I don't think it is an open question that William and MiB represent the same thing in different perspectives and that it is very likely that MiB has taken this journey with Dolores before. Is William the origin story of MiB? I think so, but that's not the only possible answer. Is William the latest example of what MiB could have been? Possible. Is William an example of what other choices MiB could have made on his journey 30 years ago? Maybe. But there is no doubt that the two characters a thematically linked and the hard separation between the storylines of MiB's journey and Dolores' journey are intentional because they show two paths to the same end goal - Dolores is repeating a loop she went through before to follow the voice in her head, while MiB is attempting to subvert that route and find another way to the end on his own terms because he knows the normal route leaves to a bad end. Motherfucker should have just bought the Westworld Ultimania. :p
 

Solo

Member
For those who subscribe to the "one timeline" theory, how are you addressing the differences in the mechanics of weapons?

Bullets don't effect MiB in the slightest, whereas they hurt William. If this is all happening in the same timeline, how does that work? MiB paid for a better loadout or something? Seems more reasonable to think that, like the Hosts, weapons have been refined over the years.
 

shira

Member
For those who subscribe to the "one timeline" theory, how are you addressing the differences in the mechanics of weapons?

Bullets don't effect MiB in the slightest, whereas they hurt William. If this is all happening in the same timeline, how does that work? MiB paid for a better loadout or something? Seems more reasonable to think that, like the Hosts, weapons have been refined over the years.

mib has the Gold (most expensive) package - so he does get extra perks, like bypassing a lot of the story

How can Anthony Hopkins control things? Nano machines?

Last episode rocked. The acting is so good.

The force or Kinect. Honestly don't know. Could be gesture or eye movement based, or he could have programmed something into the hosts.
 
For those who subscribe to the "one timeline" theory, how are you addressing the differences in the mechanics of weapons?

Bullets don't effect MiB in the slightest, whereas they hurt William. If this is all happening in the same timeline, how does that work? MiB paid for a better loadout or something?

I just think it's inconsistent portrayal. MiB did move/flinch when he got shot, he just didn't fall down or seem pained.

MiB of course knows and is expecting getting shot, Will was not seriously hurt and taken by surprise if anything though.
 

Solo

Member
I just think it's inconsistent portrayal.

MiB of course knows and is expecting getting shot, Will was not seriously hurt and taken by surprise if anything though.

But MiB doesn't even flinch - its like hes not even getting hit. Whereas William is akin to being shot with a paintball or BB gun - there is still impact, pain, and bruising/welting.
 
But MiB doesn't even flinch - its like hes not even getting hit. Whereas William is akin to being shot with a paintball or BB gun - there is still impact, pain, and bruising/welting.

How often to movies/tv portray consistent bullet hits/damage? It falls in line with how super beings and robots in movies can instantly rip off someones head, punch through a person, but suddenly for no reason they struggle with the normal person hero character in hand to hand combat.

Bullet causes terminator to fall down and flinch, then in next scene bullets bounce off without being noticed.
 

PolishQ

Member
For those who subscribe to the "one timeline" theory, how are you addressing the differences in the mechanics of weapons?

Bullets don't effect MiB in the slightest, whereas they hurt William. If this is all happening in the same timeline, how does that work? MiB paid for a better loadout or something? Seems more reasonable to think that, like the Hosts, weapons have been refined over the years.

Because MiB has likely been "shot" hundreds of times, and is totally used to it by now. William didn't expect any impact at all, and was caught off guard. Plus he's a wimp compared to MiB. Weak! /trump
 

Solo

Member
Even if you're expected/used to it, I still think there is a large gulf between a single shot knocking you to the ground and multiple shots not even registering.

The tech improved because it is 30 years later and there's two timelines ;)
 

caliph95

Member
Even if you're expected/used to it, I still think there is a large gulf between a single shot knocking you to the ground and multiple shots not even registering.

The tech improved because it is 30 years later and there's two timelines ;)
If we are going by tech there is problem with hosts acting the same with no noticeable improvements in AI. There was an interview i have to check where nolan states you can get used to it.
 

Killthee

helped a brotha out on multiple separate occasions!
For those who subscribe to the "one timeline" theory, how are you addressing the differences in the mechanics of weapons?

Bullets don't effect MiB in the slightest, whereas they hurt William. If this is all happening in the same timeline, how does that work? MiB paid for a better loadout or something? Seems more reasonable to think that, like the Hosts, weapons have been refined over the years.
I don't think we're seeing a linear story, but they've made it clear on the show and off the show that there's different loadouts. Seems reasonable to me that a park based off an MMO would dump new players in with starter gear while a VIP who pays more would be able to go in with armor upgrades.

WW promo site said:
Standard: Every stay at Westworld covers anything you could ever need. Upon entrance to the park, you will have a private consultation in one of our state-of-the-art wardrobe showrooms. It is here where you will choose the two most important elements of your trip: your hat and your weapon. More than a garment, your choice is a code, a statement of purpose while in the park — and the tool you choose will be the means by which you make your mark in the new world. Choose wisely, but don’t worry – there are plenty of opportunities for upgrades and changes once you’re in the field.

Silver: This isn’t your first rodeo here at Westworld. You are ready to bypass standard gameplay in the park and we can help you reach the deeper narratives faster. Whether you are white hat itching to join the bounty hunt of the decade, or black hat looking for more mischievous opportunities in Pariah, the Silver package can equip you with the resources necessary to find those mission-critical elements – and have you pushing yourself in ways you never expected.

Gold: For our more advanced guests. Panning for the hidden gems in Westworld can take time, and our Gold package offers access to secret paths that lead straight to the outer fringes of the park. These narratives are not for the faint of heart – come unprepared, and you may find yourself blinded by the halo of righteousness, or pulled deeper into the allure of darkness. All amenities in the lower tiers are available to you, along with an arsenal of hosts and tools to unlock levels you never knew existed.
 
Apologies for being lttp here but has the Theresa Cullen = host theory made its way into the thread yet? Personally I think it makes a lot more sense than Bernard.
 

shira

Member
Wow, Westworld is pay2win confirmed. Rip.

But did he preorder

Apologies for being lttp here but has the Theresa Cullen = host theory made its way into the thread yet? Personally I think it makes a lot more sense than Bernard.

That makes the wine glass scene a lot less interesting if Ford was putting on a puppet show for his own amusement.
Cullen conceding defeat and taking out a smoke is one of the best sequences so far.
 
Even if you're expected/used to it, I still think there is a large gulf between a single shot knocking you to the ground and multiple shots not even registering.

The tech improved because it is 30 years later and there's two timelines ;)

Doesn't make much sense to me. You see the hit detection as a flaw, when it's not.
 
mib has the Gold (most expensive) package - so he does get extra perks, like bypassing a lot of the story



The force or Kinect. Honestly don't know. Could be gesture or eye movement based, or he could have programmed something into the hosts.
The woman seemed surprised by how much power he had. Seems like management might not know how intertwined Ford is with the park
 

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
For those who subscribe to the "one timeline" theory, how are you addressing the differences in the mechanics of weapons?

Bullets don't effect MiB in the slightest, whereas they hurt William. If this is all happening in the same timeline, how does that work? MiB paid for a better loadout or something? Seems more reasonable to think that, like the Hosts, weapons have been refined over the years.

MiB is a seasoned pro. He already knows what to expect. He also could be wearing some extra armor. William didn't expect the impact the first time he got shot, which would explain him falling down. Immediately after, Logan comments about how William "popped his cherry".

When William and Logan and the bounty hunter host assault the lodge where Slim is hiding out, Slim shoots Logan several times, and Logan doesn't even flinch. Remember how Slim looked at his gun with that WTF look on his face?
 

duckroll

Member
There are definitely two timelines. There is the timeline where Elsie and Maeve are happily married and there is the timeline where they are not.
 
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