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[Shogmaster]

Just caught up with Ep 5.

So am I correct in thinking that MiB is the owner of a corporation that bailed out Delos when Arnold died and accident(s) first happened, and Logan is probably his son, who has a seat on the board of directors for Delos that are visiting the park for "inspections", along with William, who married into Logan's father's corporation's EVP position via Logan's sister?

 

[CitizenVectron]

Just caught up with Ep 5.

So am I correct in thinking that MiB is the owner of a corporation that bailed out Delos when Arnold died and accident(s) first happened, and Logan is probably his son, who has a seat on the board of directors for Delos that are visiting the park for "inspections", along with William, who married into Logan's father's corporation's EVP position via Logan's sister?

Either that or William is the MiB, 30 years earlier (his origin story). His experience in the park changes him, he takes control of Delos from Logan's family, and then saves the park and comes back over 30 years in an attempt to right what he has wronged (theoretically he prevented Dolores/Arnold from freeing the hosts).

There is strong evidence for the dual timelines. Concrete, in fact. There is circumstantial evidence that William is the MiB.

 

[onegoodlogan]

But did he preorder



That makes the wine glass scene a lot less interesting if Ford was putting on a puppet show for his own amusement.
Cullen conceding defeat and taking out a smoke is one of the best sequences so far.

This is true about the wine glass scene unless you consider it as Ford maybe testing the sentience of his creations. He was also uncharacteristically cruel in that scene in the same episode he was shown slicing the face of a resting host to prove a point. She's constantly fidgeting with her hands which they've made a point of calling a tell for the older models. Everyone trusts her just a bit too much. It seems like the show has gone out of its way to give her "human" ticks; the forehead thing just after talking about reveries, covering her stomach in the mirror, For such a strong woman she's pretty immediately obedient to Ford at least once in the lab.

Apologies for the stream of consciousness here. I should stay away from Westworld theories at work.

 

[Rentahamster]

Just caught up with Ep 5.

So am I correct in thinking that MiB is the owner of a corporation that bailed out Delos when Arnold died and accident(s) first happened, and Logan is probably his son, who has a seat on the board of directors for Delos that are visiting the park for "inspections", along with William, who married into Logan's father's corporation's EVP position via Logan's sister?

The MiB states in episode 5 that he's the one who helped to save the park after Arnold died. This is also presumably related to that part in Episode 4 during Theresa and Ford's conversation where he talked about how Arnold was always skeptical about letting the "money men" AKA Delos, in. We know that MiB is rich as fuck, so it's a good assumption that he is one of the money men who helped bail out the park in the beginning.

I'm not sure about any kind of blood relationship between Logan and MiB. It can be speculated, but there is no hard evidence, as far as I can remember. What we do know is that Theresa mentioned how the board is sending representatives, and Ford hints that they are already here. It could make sense to reason that Ford is talking about William and Logan.

 

[Joni]

If Ed Harris is the owner of the park, he would be more easily recognized by the staff. It is more likely he did something 30 years ago in the park instead, which was covered up like the same incident.

 

[Rentahamster]

You guys and your reasonable explanations.

There's still 2 timelines tho, for serious.

Just wait till Future Trunks arrives as DLC.

 

[Shogmaster]

Either that or William is the MiB, 30 years earlier (his origin story). His experience in the park changes him, he takes control of Delos from Logan's family, and then saves the park and comes back over 30 years in an attempt to right what he has wronged (theoretically he prevented Dolores/Arnold from freeing the hosts).

There is strong evidence for the dual timelines. Concrete, in fact. There is circumstantial evidence that William is the MiB.

That's so damn dumb. William = MiB nonsense should be dead by now. Ep 4 and 5 pretty much spell it out FFS.

 

[caliph95]

If Ed Harris is the owner of the park, he would be more easily recognized by the staff. It is more likely he did something 30 years ago in the park instead, which was covered up like the same incident.

Didn't hemsworth recognize him and said he gets do whatever.

 

[Shogmaster]

If Ed Harris is the owner of the park, he would be more easily recognized by the staff. It is more likely he did something 30 years ago in the park instead, which was covered up like the same incident.

He is not the owner of the park. But he is a recognized VIP by park personnel in the control room. And he is some kind of head of a large corporation and has national fame (as seen by the reaction by two other guests who met him in the park). It might not be known to general public that he has steak in the park, and he and his family are on the board of dirctors for Delos.

 

[MMBosstones86]

Didn't hemsworth recognize him and said he gets do whatever.

Yeah I believe it was when he was rekking Lawrence's village someone mentioned that a guest was wiping out hosts and he said to leave him be.

That and the Ford interactions last episode suggest he's a whale in the game.

 

[Shogmaster]

The MiB states in episode 5 that he's the one who helped to save the park after Arnold died. This is also presumably related to that part in Episode 4 during Theresa and Ford's conversation where he talked about how Arnold was always skeptical about letting the "money men" AKA Delos, in. We know that MiB is rich as fuck, so it's a good assumption that he is one of the money men who helped bail out the park in the beginning.

I'm not sure about any kind of blood relationship between Logan and MiB. It can be speculated, but there is no hard evidence, as far as I can remember. What we do know is that Theresa mentioned how the board is sending representatives, and Ford hints that they are already here. It could make sense to reason that Ford is talking about William and Logan.

I am definitely extrapolating the MiB and Logan's relationship, but I think that exchange between William and Logan spelled out their relationship clearly. I don't think it's too far of a stretch to connect MiB and Logan.

BTW, they did a poor job of casting, in that many people look too close to each other. I keep confusing the actor for Hector with Logan in close up cut scene changes...

 

[PolishQ]

There are definitely two timelines. There is the timeline where Elsie and Clementine are happily married and there is the timeline where they are not.

FTFY

 

[okdakor]

So... MiB is Logan's dad, and William canceled the wedding because he fell in love with Dolores. The bride killed herself, and MiB is coming back every year to rape Dolores as a revenge.

 

[Matty77]

If Logan and William are in the present day either they are not the boards representatives or it's much shoddier writing than timeshifting stories.

William knows pretty much zilch about the park. Logan says to him that Westworld was created by a partnership but one of the partners died (something that was written out of history) and they are going under and are ripe for a buyout.

Does that really indicate two secret representatives of a board that already owns the park that presumably in a power struggle with Ford?

 

[jett]

ANTHONY HOPKINS DA GAWD

An analysis of the lunch scene. A true master of his craft.

 

[Shogmaster]

If Logan and William are in the present day either they are not the boards representatives or it's much shoddier writing than timeshifting stories.

William knows pretty much zilch about the park. Logan says to him that Westworld was created by a partnership but one of the partners died (something that was written out of history) and they are going under and are ripe for a buyout.

Does that really indicate two secret representatives of a board that already owns the park that presumably in a power struggle with Ford?

Think of it like how Steve Jobs was pushed out of Apple by its board in 1985.

Board works for Delos but has it's primary agenda is to the stock holders. Ford presumably has controlling stakes in Delos, but board might think his leadership is not maximizing profits, or limiting the company's options. Board might be maneuvering to push him out of his own company. These two are part of the effort. Remember that the board representatives are at the park, not the actual board members. So my assessment of Logan and William being board members is off, but not that they are the representatives. MiB is probably a board member. I think he wants full ownership and is trying to push Ford out. Ford is aware of this, hence the meeting with MiB at the park and the conversation during it.

 

[Rentahamster]

BTW, they did a poor job of casting, in that many people look too close to each other. I keep confusing the actor for Hector with Logan in close up cut scene changes...

Just remember that Hector is Xerxes, and you'll never be confused again.

Wow, I never would have guessed

 

[Shogmaster]

Just remember that Hector is Xerxes, and you'll never be confused again.

NO THAT DOESN'T HELP AT ALL. >_<

 

[Matty77]

Think of it like how Steve Jobs was pushed out of Apple by its board in 1985.

Board works for Delos. Ford presumably has controlling stakes in Delos, but board might think his leadership is not maximizing profits, or limiting the company's options. Board might be maneuvering to push him out of his own company. These two are part of the effort. Remember that the board representatives are at the park, not the actual board members. So my assessment of Logan and William being board members is off, but not that they are the representatives. MiB is probably a board member. I think he wants full ownership and is trying to push Ford out. Ford is aware of this, hence the meeting with MiB at the park and the conversation during it.

If true it would be shoddy writing.

Especially since MIB's stated goal is to find the maze and purpose, why would he be trying to find Arnold's end goal which he knows is to destroy the park something he stopped 30 years ago?

Completing the incident probably will not leave a park for anyone to fight over.

 

[Chiaroscuro]

Just remember that Hector is Xerxes, and you'll never be confused again.

Rodrigo Santoro, a brazilian actor (famous here), very talented, but he is like a decade trying the US movie scene. Finally he seems to have landed in something good (he did Xerxes, Charlie'sAngels and other minimal stuff).

 

[Shogmaster]

If true it would be shoddy writing.

Especially since MIB's stated goal is to find the maze and purpose, why would he be trying to find Arnold's end goal which he knows is to destroy the park something he stopped 30 years ago?

Completing the incident probably will not leave a park for anyone to fight over.

Not for the purposes of an amusement park but for something else entirely? Remember the conversation between the chain smoking boss lady and the scenario writer when she belittled him for not knowing the true intentions of the board?

 

[Blue Ninja]

Rodrigo Santoro, a brazilian actor (famous here), very talented, but he is like a decade trying the US movie scene. Finally he seems to have landed in something good (he did Xerxes, Charlie'sAngels and other minimal stuff).

Also famous for being one of the most universally hated characters in the entire series' run of Lost.

 

[wesleyshark]

Just remember that Hector is Xerxes, and you'll never be confused again.

WHAAAATT. That's blowing my mind haha

 

[Matty77]

Not for the purposes of an amusement park but for something else entirely? Remember the conversation between the chain smoking boss lady and the scenario writer when she belittled him for not knowing the true intentions of the board?

It just strikes me as personal.

I think the big question in the board vs Ford struggle is who put the transmitter in the woodcutter? And why?

 

[Shogmaster]

It just strikes me as personal.

I think the big question in the board vs Ford struggle is who put the transmitter in the woodcutter? And why?

It seems very personal. That's why he is driven to take over.

As for the the transmitter, I don't have a completed conjecture about that yet.

 

[Matty77]

It seems very personal. That's why he is driven to take over.

As for the the transmitter, I don't have a completed conjecture about that yet.

While my theories are different than yours that's the one that's bugging me, I just hope it fits in and isn't just a plot strand for future anticipated seasons.

 

[Joni]

Didn't hemsworth recognize him and said he gets do whatever.

He is not the owner of the park. But he is a recognized VIP by park personnel in the control room. And he is some kind of head of a large corporation and has national fame (as seen by the reaction by two other guests who met him in the park). It might not be known to general public that he has steak in the park, and he and his family are on the board of dirctors for Delos.

Still requires a lot of assumptions that he is connected to Logan.

 

[Flo_Evans]

It seems very personal. That's why he is driven to take over.

As for the the transmitter, I don't have a completed conjecture about that yet.

I think it was MiB. Watch the Dolores/gypsy scene she starts to pull something out of her arm. I think he put one in her in the barn. Probably in multiple hosts he has carved up.

I could buy MiB being delos because he "saved the park" I'm not sure about Logan and William or if perhaps they are from a rival corp that wants to take more control.

 

[SuperStiltzkin]

I subscribe to the two timelines theory. Jury is still out on the William = MiB thing though. Although outside of Logan, he is the only guest we've seen so far to interact with Dolores and Lawrence. MiB always seems to emphasize his history with the hosts, specifically Dolores and Lawrence and all the adventures they've been on.

I'm not going to get into the technical side of things as technology evolves very vaguely in the show in an intentional way. We haven't seen any of the main park staff acknowledge or interact with Logan or William in any way whatsoever. Wyatt's storyline so far is not in effect in Logan or William's events. And Duckroll's post about Dolores retracing her steps and the flashes between her being alone and her being with William/Logan/Lawrence makes a lot of sense. There's a reason for that fancy editing. MiB and Teddy are in Pariah, so if they happen to conveniently not cross paths with Logan who is stuck there, then there is definitely two timelines.

 

[Shogmaster]

My biggest problem with William being MiB/two timeline theory is that Delores that is with William is advanced organic android, not the wires and and servos type that would have been the type available 30 years ago. Those old type androids were already shown on flashbacks and the cowboy one that Ford visits sometimes. THAT was 30 years ago. Even MiB talks about taking one apart and admiring all the wires and hardware way back when.

 

[Solo]

My biggest problem with William being MiB/two timeline theory is that Delores that is with William is advanced organic android, not the wires and and servos type that would have been the type available 30 years ago. Those old type androids were already shown on flashbacks and the cowboy one that Ford visits sometimes. THAT was 30 years ago. Even MiB talks about taking one apart and admiring all the wires and hardware way back when.

THAT was 34 years ago. The park had 3-4 years of R&D before opening though, which was 30 years ago. During those years, the hosts evolved from Old Bill-esque robots to androids that passed the Turing Test. Frankly for all we know, inner workings/design aside, the hosts could have been as believable 30 years ago as they are now.

 

[caliph95]

THAT was 34 years ago. The park had 3-4 years of R&D before opening though, which was 30 years ago. During those years, the hosts evolved from Old Bill-esque robots to androids that passed the Turing Test. Frankly for all we know, inner workings/design aside, the hosts could have been as believable 30 years ago as they are now.

Except they talk about coninuosly advancing the AI, with the writer guy fearing that they are becoming too human. We don't see anything different between the timelines if there is two timelines as we think.

 

[duckroll]

I noticed something. The majority of people who support the MiB/William theory know how to spell Dolores' name. The majority of people against it don't seem to be able to do that.

Discuss.

 

[SuperStiltzkin]

My biggest problem with William being MiB/two timeline theory is that Delores that is with William is advanced organic android, not the wires and and servos type that would have been the type available 30 years ago. Those old type androids were already shown on flashbacks and the cowboy one that Ford visits sometimes. THAT was 30 years ago. Even MiB talks about taking one apart and admiring all the wires and hardware way back when.

Like I said, the jury is still out on the William thing. MiB talking about the old model kinda disproves the theory. BUT that doesn't disprove the two timeline theory. Again, the show very intentionally glosses over the rate of technological advancement in this world. Much like Interstellar, technology simply needs to exist in certain states at certain times to serve the story. So the gulf of time between Old Bill and New Organic Hosts could be a mere 4 years and only evolved incrementally with software updates over the course of 30 years.

 

[NotTheGuyYouKill]

I noticed something. The majority of people who support the MiB/William theory know how to spell Dolores' name. The majority of people against it don't seem to be able to do that.

Discuss.

You are delirious, duck

 

[Solo]

Dolores spelled backwards spells Serolod. Removing the "r" and one "o", you can rearrange the letters into DELOS.

Discuss.

 

[Shogmaster]

THAT was 34 years ago. The park had 3-4 years of R&D before opening though, which was 30 years ago. During those years, the hosts evolved from Old Bill-esque robots to androids that passed the Turing Test. Frankly for all we know, inner workings/design aside, the hosts could have been as believable 30 years ago as they are now.

William looks like he is in his 30s. MiB looks like he is in his 60s. So if William is MiB, Delores with William would be one of the first iterations of her. I don't see the difference between Dolores interacting with Bernard and the one with William.

Old Bill is obviously a host that was in service when park actually opened. Dolores with Williams should be more like him if your theory is to be believed.

EDIT: lol I just noticed myself freely switching between Delores and Dolores. Delores reminds me more of Delos.

 

[PolishQ]

I noticed something. The majority of people who support the MiB/William theory know how to spell Dolores' name. The majority of people against it don't seem to be able to do that.

Discuss.

Guess I'm the exception that proves the rule.

 

[Veritigo_X]

Old Bill is obviously a host that was in service when park actually opened. Dolores with Williams should be more like him if your theory is to be believed.

Why is this obvious? Ford talked about what the hosts were like when the park opened. I don't think Old Bill could pass a Turing Test.

 

[Shogmaster]

Why is this obvious?

Because of his convos with Ford.

Also, MiB talks about taking one of the old servo types apart when he was guest in the early days.

 

[Matty77]

William looks like he is in his 30s. MiB looks like he is in his 60s. So if William is MiB, Delores with William would be one of the first iterations of her. I don't see the difference between Dolores interacting with Bernard and the one with William.

Old Bill is obviously a host that was in service when park actually opened. Dolores with Williams should be more like him if your theory is to be believed.

By the shows own internal logic, old bill was just a prototype, in the flashback footage when Ford is talking about Turing and Beta Testing you can clearly see one host is the same host that brings William into the park.

As for Dolores we have no real rules for her, she is the focal point and it has straight up been said Arnold specifically meant her to be the instrument of his plan, and he died 34 years ago. I really don't see how his plan to create true sentience and life would have got off the ground if the hosts at the point were all like old bill.

 

[duckroll]

Old Bill is obviously a host that was in service when park actually opened.

Where's the evidence for that? Ford said that after the first year of closed R&D, they started passing the turning test. Old Bill isn't anywhere close to that. He has like 10 phrases and just keeps repeating himself randomly.

He was the second host they ever built. I can't see how he made it to release.

Because of his convos with Ford.

Also, MiB talks about taking one of the old servo types apart when he was guest in the early days.

You're going to be in for a surprise when you see what the "old servo types" are really like when they show it off lol.

 

[SuperStiltzkin]

Because of his convos with Ford.

Also, MiB talks about taking one of the old servo types apart when he was guest in the early days.

Again, the MiB theory being false doesn't disprove the two timeline theory. William and Logan's timelines don't have to take place right at the very beginning of the park's opening. The way they talk about the park does not line up with how the park currently stands in the Ford/Bernard/MiB timeline.

And if we're gonna get into technological inconsistencies...I don't see how you can't have fake blood in old servo type hosts. There aren't just two types of hosts. You don't just leap from generic Old Bill to full 3D printed organic. There could still be old servo types with organic muscle lined over it as a gradual advancement toward the modern day full organic hosts. The hosts can still bleed. We haven't seen the internals of the hosts yet in William's timeline. So he could still open one up and find exactly what the MiB described.

 

[gforguava]

My biggest problem with William being MiB/two timeline theory is that Delores that is with William is advanced organic android, not the wires and and servos type that would have been the type available 30 years ago. Those old type androids were already shown on flashbacks and the cowboy one that Ford visits sometimes. THAT was 30 years ago. Even MiB talks about taking one apart and admiring all the wires and hardware way back when.

But keep in mind that we have seen some of the "old" Hosts still in use. The blonde that helps William when he arrives and Armistice, the snake tattooed desperada, were both show in a flashback to when the park was at its earliest.

The idea that the older version of the park had Hosts like Old Bill doesn't really hold water.

 

[fallengorn]

Just remember that Hector is Xerxes, and you'll never be confused again.

He'll always be Paulo in my book.

 

[Shogmaster]

Where's the evidence for that? Ford said that after the first year of closed R&D, they started passing the turning test. Old Bill isn't anywhere close to that. He has like 10 phrases and just keeps repeating himself randomly.

He was the second host they ever built. I can't see how he made it to release.



You're going to be in for a surprise when you see what the "old servo types" are really like when they show it off lol.

You still haven't explained away why she looks exactly the same in William scenes and Bernard scenes. You'd think during 30 of service, they would have kept upgrading her.

I find you guys' explanation that they were fully organic 30 years ago a bit hokey.

 

[duckroll]

You still haven't explained away why she looks exactly the same in William scenes and Bernard scenes. You'd think during 30 of service, they would have kept upgrading her.

I find you guys' explanation that they were fully organic 30 years ago a bit hokey.

The explanation is that it's how the show presents it. Why does her father and the Snake Tattoo Woman look exactly the same in the flashbacks showing the earliest times in the park when Arnold talks about it? Why is the host who welcomed William to the park exactly the same there too? Because their ideas are bigger than their ability to show every detail to satisfaction. That's what happens in every show.

 

[Ferrio]

You still haven't explained away why she looks exactly the same in William scenes and Bernard scenes. You'd think during 30 of service, they would have kept upgrading her.

I find you guys' explanation that they were fully organic 30 years ago a bit hokey.

Well you're not getting much more than that because there isn't. We can only explain with the hints we've been given.

 

[SuperStiltzkin]

You still haven't explained away why she looks exactly the same in William scenes and Bernard scenes. You'd think during 30 of service, they would have kept upgrading her.

I find you guys' explanation that they were fully organic 30 years ago a bit hokey.

Why should she look different? They're robots. Not every single one of them needs to undergo a makeover. Just a software upgrade. We've seen hosts who have looked the same through those 3 decades through flashbacks and it's been stated that Dolores is one of the oldest hosts in the park.

And I still don't see why old hosts can't bleed. We have yet to be shown the internals of old hosts during William and Logan's events yet. The Ford flashback takes place when the park was closed and the engineers were given free reign to create. So there were no guests during that time. So we can't assume that that is what they are supposed to look like inside when the park opens.

 

[Shogmaster]

The explanation is that it's how the show presents it. Why does her father and the Snake Tattoo Woman look exactly the same in the flashbacks showing the earliest times in the park when Arnold talks about it? Why is the host who welcomed William to the park exactly the same there too? Because their ideas are bigger than their ability to show every detail to satisfaction. That's what happens in every show.

Remind me when those flashback scene are from so I can take a look again.