Rimworld has some pretty...interesting sexuality mechanics (RPS)
- Thread starter The Technomancer
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TheVoidDragon
Member
RPS is the one who says he wanted that, however the reason he gave in his comment was that he wanted them to use full quotes for his responses, not that he wanted "full editorial control" over the article. He didn't want what he said to be edited in a way that could go against what he actually said/meant, i don't see anything wrong with that.
Yeah but what about the Breitbart part
Most people try to, to some extent, I think. Or you'd have to try really hard not to know anything about the artists whose work you enjoy.
But on the other hand, no matter how cool a simulation game this is, dude's made a fantasy space future where I don't exist, and it's hard for that not to feel more direct than "Jackson Pollock was probably an abusive drunk"
this guy immediately jumped from zero to paranoid fear-mongering in his post. i am perfectly willing to believe RPS in their note.
honestly the mere fact that he thinks this is a hit piece and RPS would have been willing to distort his words to serve their own nefarious political ends speaks volumes about his views. this guy is nuts and his viewpoint is garbage.
English isn't my first language so finer nuances can sometimes escape me, I'm sorry. It wasn't at all my intention to imply that.
banefirelord
Banned
Join the club.
The fact that folks apparently have access to the source code suggests that, yes, it should be moddable like anything else.
Still not sure about giving money to this kind of developer, though...
Oh, no, it's cool. I just see things like that and correct people and move on. I'm not particularly hurt by it at this point unless people insist on continuing after I correct them (but most people are cool enough not to, thankfully).
As I usually end up doing, I have to say that I couldn't tell that English isn't your first language at all, so I'd say you're doing fine there.
TissueBox
Member
Indeed, the problem stems most from the doubt this casts over the game's direction. By being apparently 100% un-ironic it's kind of like sticking a wedge into the pulley and disrupting the suspension of disbelief. Excluding male bisexuality can't really be justified on the same basis (that is, the need for realism) as their inclusion of female bisexuality, only by an obvious preference of the developer (as conveyed by the creator's own remarks). So to have these two bases conflicting (simulated realism vs preference) it creates a jarring effect and you just kinda wish it wasn't there to begin with, lol (ie wishing he'd kept a more simplified approach to the mechanics; though this essentially only paints over the authorial intent, not refine its function). It also appears not to stop there, as other gender stereotypes seem built to code.
As a result it's clear that the sexual politics this game was made with in mind may have been of a certain strand, or at least, had more influence than other contemporary values, and with this RPS piece making such aspects public will alienate some people as well.
I enjoyed the game when I tried it and think it's very ambitious and does what it can to meet that ambition, and for me the good outweighed the bad -- so it just sucks to see how much is outta your control once the artist of the art is forced to come to light at an obtuse angle.
I mean, parts of it does model the real world (although going from "women tend to have higher incidences of bisexuality" to "nah bisexual men are just closeted gays" is... well, certainly a notion), but you have to actually physically code this stuff into the game. It seems like actual nontrivial work to enforce gender roles and expectations into a game genre that is generally about a lot of player agency and freedoms. This is probably one of the most explicit examples in gaming I've actually seen of someone's political worldview thoroughly seeping into core aspects of the game.
There could have been a lot of ways of modeling a deeper relationship system that didn't get into some pretty ignorant territory, so it's entirely on him.
This does make me want to see similar investigations of game code to parse out intentional or unintentional biases though. Things like non-player character generators spitting out only white faces or the like.
There could have been a lot of ways of modeling a deeper relationship system that didn't get into some pretty ignorant territory, so it's entirely on him.
This does make me want to see similar investigations of game code to parse out intentional or unintentional biases though. Things like non-player character generators spitting out only white faces or the like.
The fact that folks apparently have access to the source code suggests that, yes, it should be moddable like anything else.
Still not sure about giving money to this kind of developer, though...
Oh, no, it's cool. I just see things like that and correct people and move on. I'm not particularly hurt by it at this point unless people insist on continuing after I correct them (but most people are cool enough not to, thankfully).
As I usually end up doing, I have to say that I couldn't tell that English isn't your first language at all, so I'd say you're doing fine there.
You know what? That's a very subtle difference that makes a big difference when you think about it. I don't think I've ever made that mistake but thank you for bringing it up as I surely won't ever do it now.
Lunarwhale
Member
"In contrast, every bi man I've ever known has ultimately ended up identifying as gay."
Gaf, should I break up with my girlfriend now or wait until the next full moon rises and let it fall apart as god apparently intended?
Gaf, should I break up with my girlfriend now or wait until the next full moon rises and let it fall apart as god apparently intended?
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
It's become incredibly obvious that he made a "how i wish life was" game instead of a simple life management sim.
Conkerkid11
Member
Wow, as much as I'm a fan of the game, that dev comment... Like... Wtf
Or maybe he'll find a way to make you not bi. Who knows what this dev is capable of.
Maybe if this dev gets to know you, he'll patch the game.
Or maybe he'll find a way to make you not bi. Who knows what this dev is capable of.
Baron von Loathsome
Member
banefirelord
Banned
Best to just rip that Band-Aid off.
SaganIsGOAT
Junior Member
My girlfriend is gonna be concerned when I go missing.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
He'll just claim SJW.
boredandlazy
Member
Guess the dev hasn't met you yet...
my favorite part about his response is that he claims the piece was muckraking clickbait while simultaneously confirming that everything RPS talks about with regard to the game system was indeed consciously chosen and implemented according to his personal beliefs
so it's somehow a totally accurate and truthful piece of biased slander
edit: i'm also interested in what exactly has changed in recent versions (my guess would be not much) though it's not exactly relevant to this particular article
so it's somehow a totally accurate and truthful piece of biased slander
edit: i'm also interested in what exactly has changed in recent versions (my guess would be not much) though it's not exactly relevant to this particular article
Conkerkid11
Member
Dunno if anybody saw this:
Take from that what you will. But it seems like he could have just said that if that's what he meant, rather than making the original comment he made and replying to the RPS writer the way he did. Seems he's trying to cover his ass.
Random Redditor said:
dev said:
Take from that what you will. But it seems like he could have just said that if that's what he meant, rather than making the original comment he made and replying to the RPS writer the way he did. Seems he's trying to cover his ass.
Can I get a link for that? Google is coming up blank. Don't think it likes reddit comments.
even if this were all he'd said about it and the angry comment reply was never made the piece is still instructive and interesting.
the point is that choices are made during development, often as the result of having limited resources and having to prioritize some elements over others. a totally benign and progressive developer might have made the same choice just because they didn't think it was terribly important to have an in-depth system for this immediately or at all, but the act of making that choice speaks to their mindset anyway.
Still doesn't explain why he did that in the first place. I'm not sure how you would end up with different values for men and women's age ranges, for instance, if it was purely "I'm trying to push this out ASAP."
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
"You're right! I'll add a factor for that.
As I've said elsewhere, this system was never deeply analyzed. All this discussion is literally about an attraction function like 15 lines long, written in one hour, many months ago."
So he's basically admitting that it never crossed his mind?
But it crossed his mind that all women would like to kiss other women?
As I've said elsewhere, this system was never deeply analyzed. All this discussion is literally about an attraction function like 15 lines long, written in one hour, many months ago."
So he's basically admitting that it never crossed his mind?
But it crossed his mind that all women would like to kiss other women?
I still think he's on the wrong and he's obviously playing this "she went silent" for his own agenda, however, i don't think there is absolutely anything wrong with requesting to post one's reply unedited.
Conkerkid11
Member
He can change the game's code, but his world views are still offputting.
Gonna be interesting to see how Steam reviews reflect this, if they do. Game's at like a 96% right now.
Didn't know much about the creator or the game but I actually think the system is interesting but the politics behind it seem pretty ugly. I'd actually love a game that experimented with NPC's, what they find attractive and don't, what attracts or repulses them and so on and had it play into the gameplay. Some Ursula LeGuin style scifi story based game or something along those lines.
Whatever you want dawg
It's all pretty horrible, but I find the concept that disabled people are magnitudes less attractive to be extraordinarily offensive and just cruel. The weirdness around male and female sexuality sounds like he just has insecurity issues and general lack of actual knowledge and experience, but the other is just a heinous insight into his mind.
every reputable journalistic outlet in existence will refuse to cede any editorial control to an interview subject
that is 100% standard practice, this guy had no reason to expect anything different
Purple Cheeto
Member
The fact that folks apparently have access to the source code suggests that, yes, it should be moddable like anything else.
Still not sure about giving money to this kind of developer, though...
Oh, no, it's cool. I just see things like that and correct people and move on. I'm not particularly hurt by it at this point unless people insist on continuing after I correct them (but most people are cool enough not to, thankfully).
As I usually end up doing, I have to say that I couldn't tell that English isn't your first language at all, so I'd say you're doing fine there.
People don't have access to the source code. They have access to a reverse engineered version of the source code. It's not quite the same thing. Making use of this is sort of a gray area.
Requesting it is fine but have zero expectations that that will be adhered to especially as a condition for any interview
Head.spawn
Junior Member
The name certainly set the expectations for this thread kind of high.
The Dev:
To me this sounds reasonable. Strange yes, but it sounds like actually a case of ignorance and slight bias without the maliciousness that we tend to see when people claim someone is just "ignorant". He acknowledges that Bi men exist but for some reason chose to ignore them in his game. He has some gender rules that come from personal life experience that don't reflect the most progressive views yes. But I just think he seems to be so finely straddling the line between being progressive and falling into the folds of the Alt-right internet that we should all take it easy on him and convince him to join the good team. He's definitely someone who can be gently educated. I know i may I sound like one of those people, but really in this case, he semi tried to be inclusive, and it sounds like he was already paranoid about being rejected and attacked by "SJW's". He's already defensive, I don't think harsh criticism will help anyone.
I''m not saying he's without fault. I'm not trying to trivialize the issue. I just want to approach with caution. And I get it, I'm black and gay, I really get the frustration that people feel, and the desire to ridicule, but for once, at least based on the quote above, there's not really any malicious intent. He really did try. The framing of the article seems to kind of justify his initial fears, and seeing some responses here just further confirms his paranoia of a "lynch mob". I just don't want to radicalize a dev :/
To me this sounds reasonable. Strange yes, but it sounds like actually a case of ignorance and slight bias without the maliciousness that we tend to see when people claim someone is just "ignorant". He acknowledges that Bi men exist but for some reason chose to ignore them in his game. He has some gender rules that come from personal life experience that don't reflect the most progressive views yes. But I just think he seems to be so finely straddling the line between being progressive and falling into the folds of the Alt-right internet that we should all take it easy on him and convince him to join the good team. He's definitely someone who can be gently educated. I know i may I sound like one of those people, but really in this case, he semi tried to be inclusive, and it sounds like he was already paranoid about being rejected and attacked by "SJW's". He's already defensive, I don't think harsh criticism will help anyone.
I''m not saying he's without fault. I'm not trying to trivialize the issue. I just want to approach with caution. And I get it, I'm black and gay, I really get the frustration that people feel, and the desire to ridicule, but for once, at least based on the quote above, there's not really any malicious intent. He really did try. The framing of the article seems to kind of justify his initial fears, and seeing some responses here just further confirms his paranoia of a "lynch mob". I just don't want to radicalize a dev :/
I think, ideally, there could be player-controlled settings to change between a more equalised system and the developer's own take on relationships.
The current system is very flawed and appears negatively stereotyped, but on the other hand if the developer feels passionately about it and believes it makes for a better game or a game he prefers to play (maybe he prefers the storytelling that comes with the asymmetrical gender representation?) then that option should remain in there.
However, it would also be great for people that want to have a system that treats people equally to be able to have that option. A third-party mod would do the trick, but an in-game setting would be worlds better. It would be very cool to have this behaviour driven by individual settings so that the player can customise it to their own liking too!
The current system is very flawed and appears negatively stereotyped, but on the other hand if the developer feels passionately about it and believes it makes for a better game or a game he prefers to play (maybe he prefers the storytelling that comes with the asymmetrical gender representation?) then that option should remain in there.
However, it would also be great for people that want to have a system that treats people equally to be able to have that option. A third-party mod would do the trick, but an in-game setting would be worlds better. It would be very cool to have this behaviour driven by individual settings so that the player can customise it to their own liking too!
I mean even if you want to ignore everything else surrounding this (don't because it is important) the fact remains that the probability of bi men is zero. Not equal to the probability of bi women, not half like his research suggests, zero.
He spent time crafting those age vs attractiveness curves, which are highly gender specific, and he couldn't even change a 0 to a 0.075?
He spent time crafting those age vs attractiveness curves, which are highly gender specific, and he couldn't even change a 0 to a 0.075?
How is that offensive/cruel? IF the game aims to be realistic then that's how it is. Disabled people on average will be way less attractive than non-disabled people. Afaik the game was not designed as a feel-good escapism adventure for disabled people but as a survival simulation game.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
What a joke
veloxStrix
Banned
Ah, an out-of-context snippet in the OP. My favorite. I honestly don't know much about Rimworld, but did he promise realistic relationships? Was the relationship system a key facet of the game? There is lot of outrage in this thread towards a person seemingly based on a single post. That's always a good sign to step back and take a deep breath.
And before I get some misguided post from someone who is ready to step in and do battle with the evil of the world, I can understand disappointment and wanting to change a game because of its views and understanding of diversity. I have trouble understanding knee-jerk outrage to anything that seems to stray from the majority GAF views.
Edit: Especially on a game still in early-access.
And before I get some misguided post from someone who is ready to step in and do battle with the evil of the world, I can understand disappointment and wanting to change a game because of its views and understanding of diversity. I have trouble understanding knee-jerk outrage to anything that seems to stray from the majority GAF views.
Edit: Especially on a game still in early-access.