No, I judged you based on the word that you used! Words have meaning, think about what re-assured means in that context.
Whatever you like, I thought the contrast of the two would lead people to their own conclusions.
Waypoint: I Hope The Last of Us Part II is Super Gay (Spoilers)
- Thread starter Kenzodielocke
- Start date
No, I judged you based on the word that you used! Words have meaning, think about what re-assured means in that context.
Whatever you like, I thought the contrast of the two would lead people to their own conclusions.
Theanine3D
Member
I've liked your posts up until now but this is straight up "All Lives Matter" rhetoric.
We should avoid stereotypes - I've dealt with anti-gay stereotypes my whole life and they fucking piss me off. But it's safe to say Ellie is not in danger of becoming a stereotype. She was already a fleshed-out, established character long before she was revealed to be attracted to women in the DLC. Her relationship with Riley just added onto the already existing characterization she had going for her, making her an even stronger character. I don't think we have to worry about stereotypes in her case.
Frozenprince
Banned
No. You really can't understand it if you haven't lived it. That's it. That's literally it. Just like you can suddenly understand what it's like to be black, or hispanic, or muslim.
Because you haven't lived it.
You empathize with it. That's not the same thing. Even then, do you really? Do you know what it's like to have people spit on you for holding hands with someone? Do you know what it's like to be beaten for being who you are? Do you know what it's like to never be able to go to an unfamiliar area because you're worried about what someone might do because you're different and leave your child fatherless? Have you ever had to march for your rights and dignity?
Just because you empathize doesn't mean you understand. And you trying to equate me to someone who would literally fucking beat me half to death because I say you don't understand is the height of such outlandish privilege and the blinders effect. You don't understand, that point showcases that you are utterly and entirely incapable of doing so.
Because you haven't lived it.
You empathize with it. That's not the same thing. Even then, do you really? Do you know what it's like to have people spit on you for holding hands with someone? Do you know what it's like to be beaten for being who you are? Do you know what it's like to never be able to go to an unfamiliar area because you're worried about what someone might do because you're different and leave your child fatherless? Have you ever had to march for your rights and dignity?
Just because you empathize doesn't mean you understand. And you trying to equate me to someone who would literally fucking beat me half to death because I say you don't understand is the height of such outlandish privilege and the blinders effect. You don't understand, that point showcases that you are utterly and entirely incapable of doing so.
Frozenprince
Banned
Then your attitude should be "more inclusion is better" not going on some long diatribe about how it's not important.
CrimsonSquall
Member
If Ellie finds a new boo thang I don't mind. ND has proven time and time again they know how to deliver, so yea if it'll add to the story then Ellies gone have to scissor a chick. No modesty pls
But it's not important, he's already assured! I think if you look deeper into the meaning of assured you'll find that you both really agree when you get into it.
Prithee Be Careful
Industry Professional
I have to say, I disagree wholeheartedly. Killing your darlings isn't about ditching anything that doesn't appeal to a mass market. It's about having the courage to abandon something when it's not working - even if you've invested a lot into it.
'Art' has already been debased enough by playing to lowest common denominators - it's why certain conventions are already so immovably cemented in our media diets -including those of representation.
Making homosexuality a key story theme for a game could certainly turn off a certain type of gamer - no doubt - but that's their problem not the developer's. This isn't a darling that needs to killed, just a small price that has to paid for doing something original and bold.
If it's about a sexual relationship I'm pretty sure that is related to sexuality.
nvm, misread
edit; i'm actually not gonna respond to all that garbage, because it reads to me like minimizing the importance that representation can have on people's lives just because you seem to be fine with where you are in life. news flash: i'm fine where I am in life too, but it's still cool as fuck every time there's a queer character on a show I watch or in a game I play, because seeing parts of my life recreated in media feels good and is very affirming.
edit; i'm actually not gonna respond to all that garbage, because it reads to me like minimizing the importance that representation can have on people's lives just because you seem to be fine with where you are in life. news flash: i'm fine where I am in life too, but it's still cool as fuck every time there's a queer character on a show I watch or in a game I play, because seeing parts of my life recreated in media feels good and is very affirming.
Sorry I can't help myself sometimes, I think you're right incest isn't really a sexual orientation. Like I said before though there's a fascinating part of the Bible with Lot and his daughters that seemed like gafneo's post about repopulating the world in a The Last of Us context.
Astral Dog
Member
Why are you equating one with another? You dont see that Gay , Black, Latino people are often treated lesser because they are a bit different? Maybe Kill is a strong word, but society certainly gives a lot of trouble to minorities (non White Straight Males, sometimes Catholic)
Its not only about killing/Survival, but lack of representation in media, discrimination, bullying,ignorance, etc.
Privilege is still a word that can be used imo.
That's funny, the Quran mentions the people of Lut (Lot) but only in the context of the destruction of Sodom (but not Gomorroah! Never mentioned in the Quran), they gloss over the part of the Pentateuch where Lut's daughters get it on with Lut after they get him drunk in order to produce children because they think the world (sodom) has been destroyed.
lightskintwin
Banned
That's why I'm asking because I'm not sure what to conclude from that. Plus I hate when people make wrong conclusions about something I've said then create a strawman argument out of it, hence me wanting you to elaborate further please.
Whenever people use words to explain something people will probably accuse you of a strawman even if it doesn't exist so don't worry, some people's brains can only operate on beep boop numbers so I just gave the digits.
lightskintwin
Banned
The US is 1000 times better for Black actors, hence UK actors come here to play African American roles.
okay but your question was 'why can't people just be people' and the answer, when it comes to queer folks, is because straight people keep killing us. we did not ask to be 'othered', or to be demonized, marginalized, harassed, have fewer rights, make less money, be made to be more prone to self-harm and suicide, or to not feel safe holding the hand of the person we love. straight people did that to us.
and you're not queer, so you can miss me with that 'but i feel fine, why doesn't everyone else?
' bullshit.and naughty dog is an american game developer, making a game about an american environment, with american characters. it's nice that things are going great over in the UK though.
also just because you don't think you have privilege doesn't mean you don't. even as a queer brown guy, i absolutely have privilege when it comes to my identity. i don't have control over it either, but i can acknowledge it, and use it in a positive way. and using your lack of lived experiences as some kind of weird shut down of queer people who are actually affected in some way by representation in media is..well, weird.
I did not pick up on the implications of Ellies clothing, although I did play through and love TLOU and LB. When I see a young lady dressed like that it only reminds me of my youth, when grunge was a thing. It wasn't unusual to see girls wear clothing like this, and in some circles I still see it around town, but I think now its a bit of a bygone era. Not sure what that means when Ellie's wearing it in terms of timeline.
I'm officially in love with you (but I'm a gay man, so it will be only a platonic love XD)
Scrooge McDuck
Member
Snipping to focus on certain paragraphs for the coherence of my thoughts.
I must admit that I don't really understand what you're getting at, here. You said yourself that representation is sometimes all you have to show you who you are. Then what's the problem with people wanting to be represented, then?
Are you perhaps simply objecting to the words "privilege"? Like you felt accused of being a stuck up person who believe that they are of the higher class? That you are automatically a happier person who feel powerful due to the media catering to you? Because that's not what it means. At least, not in the context of this conversation.
It means that you can afford to be in certain position that others can't. To actually be able to choose to the mindset of not feeling overpowered by media representations of your orientation/race/gender, to not have some little representation be all you have to show who you are... That's a position of privilege.
all your talk about not having to be reassured of who you are and how okay it is to be who you are, along with all your kumbaya shit, sure reads like that, to be honest with you.
ShironRedshift
Member
Really? No value? When we're talking about a sequel to a game that among other things was renowned for its writing and characters and narrative?
Did you read Schreier's post on the first page? If you haven't, go back and do so. If you have, go back and give it another read anyway, then walk away and think about it for a few minutes, and tell me that adds no value to a game. Even if it has no value to you personally, it clearly does add value to others whereas you can just skip the cutscene or whatever if you really don't care about it, no harm no foul. But it definitely does add value and improve the lives of others, even if you yourself are not one of those, and the fact that this type of thing does improve the lives of minorities even just a little should be reason enough for everyone to be fighting tooth and nail for it, to help each other out and see each other smile and make each other's lives as positive and respected and meaningful as possible, even in as small ways as this, because as the link Schreier posted shows even "small things" like this can indeed have tremendous impacts and strong reverberations. That's more than reason enough and more than value enough.
Brushguy Woodthreep
Member
Don't get me wrong, all this is fantastic and a good thing. The UK has made fantastic strides in this kind of thing. However, speaking as a gay man from the UK, do you know what I care about a lot more than soap operas? Video games. As such, I'd like video games to be a diverse medium too. We don't have to choose.
You are. Take a step back and think about the things you've been saying. You've found a thousand ways to avoid agreeing with the simple idea that having representation in video games is a positive thing for LGBT people and something to be praised.
Gotdatmoney
Member
"Why can't gay people just like, stop letting the fact that they are gay and face tons of discrimination over major aspects of their lives and just like, say nothing about it?"
Man, some times I wonder how people formulate these thoughts. If humanity wanted people to just be people we would have abandoned the social aspects of the concepts of race and gender a long time ago. There is obvious difference between people. It's just so dumb when we act like there isn't on some Kumbaya shit. Where does that get us? If you are a progressive person what exactly are you achieving by pretending there are no differences between people when the rest of the world doesn't operate on that reality? How about you use your progressiveness to actual push for something positive?
Man, some times I wonder how people formulate these thoughts. If humanity wanted people to just be people we would have abandoned the social aspects of the concepts of race and gender a long time ago. There is obvious difference between people. It's just so dumb when we act like there isn't on some Kumbaya shit. Where does that get us? If you are a progressive person what exactly are you achieving by pretending there are no differences between people when the rest of the world doesn't operate on that reality? How about you use your progressiveness to actual push for something positive?
This type of comment keeps popping up, but it makes no sense in a thread about naughty dog, who since the ps3 have worried about the gameplay about as much as, if not less than, the story and characters.
Aeriscloud
Banned
It's like I'm at a Donald Trump victory tour.
And the echo chamber is full of beautiful minds.
And the echo chamber is full of beautiful minds.
Frozenprince
Banned
I wonder what hot foreign bond girl he's gonna drag his dick across next?
At least you're feeling something, and that's better than indifference. I didn't ask you to be a knight in shining armour, because I know I'm not either, and that's not either of our jobs. But asking someone to not minimize the importance of representation when they aren't the one affected by it isn't exactly asking the world of you. A lot of people want more love and tolerance in the world, but some are more affected by the lack of it than others. I don't hate you, I just think you're not as in tune with the struggles that people face as you think you are. I didn't say anything about you being part of a problem, or make up any weird as fuck hypothetical about shipping you out. You said that.
I'm sure we agree on lots of stuff, but I don't think I've insulted you at all. I've spoken with you the way I would speak with anyone who says unreasonable shit, and digs their heels in instead of just listening. I hope you go and work on your own learning process, especially as it relates to representation and why it's so important for minorities.
bye felicia
didn't we go over earlier in the thread about how Friday is a bad stereotype or something?
Prototype Viktor
Member
On the other hand, almost everyone with a speaking role died in the game. Doesn't really fall in the trope trap
cyborgnumberblue
Member
He's married, so presumably his wife.
If it's organic then by all means. I thought left behind was great.
The wikipedia of Nathan "Nate" Drake is gold
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathan_Drake_(character)
Drake is a complex man of contradictions. We must examine through Hegelian dialectics.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathan_Drake_(character)
wikipedia said:
wikipedia said:
Drake is a complex man of contradictions. We must examine through Hegelian dialectics.
BigTnaples
Todd Howard's Secret GAF Account
Why is anyone asking ND to focus on anything?
Let's let the story tellers tell the story they want to tell. If the story they want to tell is "super gay" then fantastic. If not, equally fantastic.
There shouldn't be pressure for them to do or do not though.
Let's let the story tellers tell the story they want to tell. If the story they want to tell is "super gay" then fantastic. If not, equally fantastic.
There shouldn't be pressure for them to do or do not though.
Eh, developers make decisions informed by culture norms and restrictions all the time. Stories don't come out in a vacuum, they are heavily influenced. We know Ellie is gay, she will be the first gay character in a AAA game. That's a huge deal. It would be cool if they actually referenced that in some form rather than the usual, "she's gay wink". I don't really see an issue with these requests, gamers request things all the time
Cid Highwind
Banned
Ellie is a great character in general so I'm really excited to see where they take her in the next one.