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[Glass Rebel]

Yes, banning Burkas in places like schools is indeed not opression.

The sad reality was that overly religious parents banned their daughters from school trips and PE. But banning burka is sure the worst opression women in Germany ever faced!

So you don't object. At least we got that out of the way.

 

[Pusherman]

I live in the Netherlands, which also just banned the Burqa in certain public spaces. The thing is, only an estimated 300 women actually wear the face-veil here. And we know that at least some of them are white women that converted to Islam from atheism or christianity in their late teens/early adulthood. So I am not sure who exactly is helped by a ban like this. I do know, however, who is hurt and who will continue to be hurt by the constant demonisation of Islam and the continued questioning of muslim's place in European society. Making muslims or Islam a topic for political discussion might make for an easy win in the politics of current-day Europe but it also has real tangible effect on the lives of muslims. I'm sick of being the victim of ethnic profiling, racial discrimination when applying for a job and hate speech and insults, sometimes by major political actors, while every thing done by muslims anywhere in the world is used against me as some kind of proof of my badness. And then people have the gall to talk about muslims having a hard time integrating, often implicitly or explicitly blaming those muslims as the main reason why. You can't ever be really integrated into a society that makes it so obvious it hates and fears you, and after awhile you don't really want to either.

So, let's give this purely symbolic ban a round of applause I guess. It might help Merkel get re-elected next year so who cares if these kinds of discussions are just another drop in the bucket of Islamophobia.

 

[ZdkDzk]

Is banning the burqa the best solution? I doubt it. But, as it stands, I don't see a better one. These anti-liberal ideas that are still prevalent in Islam need to be changed. Islam needs to adapt to modern culture - just as many other religions have already done.

It's not a solution. At all. Calling a burqa ban a solution is like dumping gasoline on a burning house because it's a liquide. Being able to say "at least we're trying" doesn't mean shit if you were warned your actions would only worsen the problem. It won't force anyone to adapt to western society; it won't change their opinions on how women should be seen and treated; it won't help women escape the dominating control of their family/community. All it's going to do is foster resentment, trap these women in their own homes, and let them know that the state and native population has no qualms controlling how they live their lives, and no actual plan or intention to help them.

How do you enforce a ban? We can talk about whether or not having a ban is ethical and the people who choose to wear one, but how do we actually enforce a ban and how does it ultimately affect the people we're trying to "liberate". My first thought is that if the ban extends to all public spaces there has to be a punishment, let's say a fine. Who gets the fine? Is it the woman who doesn't have a choice in wearing a burqa? You most likely can't identify the person putting pressure on the woman to wear a burqa, and any fine to a household member would likely put the same financial strain on the woman as fining her. If it only applies to government run facilities, then great: you've effectively made it illegal for some women to do things like go to school or testify in court. At what point does a burq ban either improve the quality of life for women of Islamic faith, or decrease the amount of women being forced to do things like wearing a burqa outside of their home? I actually can't figure out how such a ban would be productive, positive, or even neutral in any way.

 

[PdotMichael]

Back that up. Last I checked oppression was the unjust treatment of people. Dictating what clothing a person cannot wear impedes on their freedom of wear. Atop of that banning this sort of clothing is going to unfairly impact Muslim woman to a higher degree than Muslim men. Do you believe the sort of husband who forces his wife into these sorts of clothing is just going to say 'oh okay Merkel/the government says its not cool, time to expunge that from our life'? No, those with that sort of control are going to go even further in their mistreatment and force their wives to remain at home. What a terrific conclusion we've reached with this. But apparently you're blind to this and seem to think just banning the clothing is an act of liberation.

What you post doesn't make sense at all.

The most important thing Europe must do is breaking down the parallel society, the Burka ban in public places is one important step in that direction.

The but that's racist, antifeminist stuff was the standard statement of the left-wing in Europe for decades with the result that later generations are less integrated than previous ones.
Misunderstood tolerance is something you can practice on the other side of the Atlantic with barely 1% Muslim population but it didn't work out in Europe.

 

[TTOOLL]

That's not only on GAF, it's a problem a lot of left parties are facing as well.

e.g. allow ritual slaughter of animals or impose upon religious freedom

They are putting globalism and their failed view of it in front of individual rights, amazing. They don't care even if it comes from societies that oppress women and homosexuals. It incredibly contradictory.

 

[excelsiorlef]

They are putting globalism and their failed view of it in front of individual rights, amazing. They don't care even if it comes from societies that oppress women and homosexuals. It incredibly contradictory.

How does criminalizing the oppressed women help individual rights?

 

[Hoya Destroyer]

Merkal has done the right thing. Its important for first world countries to publically acknowledge that certain aspects of third world culture arent acceptable there.

 

[Dryk]

Are you implying religion and centuries of sexist "traditions" have no influence on women ?

Lots of women still take their husband's name so that's clearly not the case. I don't think anybody is trying to argue that the burqa is not deeply rooted in patriarchy. But trying to give people their self-determination back by telling them what they can and can't do is ridiculous.

If you want oppressed women to stop wearing the veil then listen to them, support them, and let them stop if they want to stop.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

On the other hand, the fact that most Muslim women choose not to wear it in Western countries shows pretty clearly that they suffer no ill effects from that choice, so the ones who do chooose to wear it in those countries are more likely to be acting out of personal expression than out of oppression. After all, they're free to wear whatever they want.

This does not follow at all. Most Muslim women don't wear the burka because they aren't from Afghanistan, which is where the garment is predominantly used.

Are you implying it's impossible for a woman to choose to wear one whole of her own volition?

A burka? Yes, pretty much. Honestly, just look at the fucking thing.

 

[excelsiorlef]

This does not follow at all. Most Muslim women don't wear the burka because they aren't from Afghanistan, which is where the garment is predominantly used.


A burka? Yes, pretty much. Honestly, just look at the fucking thing.

How does criminalizing those women help them?

Because remember the only people who can be punished under this ban is the women everyone is so concerned about.

 

[azyless]

Back that up. Last I checked oppression was the unjust treatment of people. Dictating what clothing a person cannot wear impedes on their freedom of wear. Atop of that banning this sort of clothing is going to unfairly impact Muslim woman to a higher degree than Muslim men. Do you believe the sort of husband who forces his wife into these sorts of clothing is just going to say 'oh okay Merkel/the government says its not cool, time to expunge that from our life'? No, those with that sort of control are going to go even further in their mistreatment and force their wives to remain at home. What a terrific conclusion we've reached with this. But apparently you're blind to this and seem to think just banning the clothing is an act of liberation. We should be seeking to empower these women to break their chains, not doing the minimal effort of adding an additional vector of control over them.

What do you propose ? There are plenty of structures meant to help these women already, I'm not saying it's easy but as long as they're willing to stay with their husband, brothers, etc. then yeah, sad to say but I'd rather they not bring that extremist brand of religion anywhere else.

Not sure why everyone is acting as if the only variable to consider here is the oppression of women. Not that it doesn't exist but it's ignoring all the values attached to the niqab and burqas (hint : not moderate islam). I don't want people who consider this normal to get any exposure whatsoever.

 

[Glass Rebel]

How does criminalizing those women help them?

Because remember the only people who can be punished under this ban is the women everyone is so concerned about.

The people supporting this ban aren't doing it because they want to help women, they do it because they want to attack a religion.

 

[Izuna]

The people supporting this ban aren't doing it because they want to help women, they do it because they want to attack a religion.

No.

 

[excelsiorlef]

No.

So then please answer my question

 

[norinrad]

Et tu, Merkel? Fasten your seat belts, we are moving toward dark times.

Not really in most countries it's not allowed in governmental institutions.

Also Germany finally makes a stand. Let's see how this will play out. May we live in interesting times.

 

[azyless]

The people supporting this ban aren't doing it because they want to help women, they do it because they want to attack a religion.

I absolutely want to attack the salafist brand of Islam.

 

[Glass Rebel]

I absolutely want to attack the salafist brand of Islam.

And you're ok with punishing a group of already oppressed women in doing so?

 

[NoblesseOblige]

What do you propose ? There are plenty of structures meant to help these women already, I'm not saying it's easy but as long as they're willing to stay with their husband, brothers, etc. then yeah, sad to say but I'd rather they not bring that extremist brand of religion anywhere else.

Not sure why everyone is acting as if the only variable to consider here is the oppression of women. Not that it doesn't exist but it's ignoring all the values attached to the niqab and burqas (hint : not moderate islam). I don't want people who consider this normal to get any exposure whatsoever.

What do I propose? I don't know I'm not an expert. I imagine the first step is making them feel welcome and as if society is accepting of them. Next is to show support for their decisions and limiting those who seek to take choice from them (rather than introducing an additional restriction). These things take time, generations even. Not all women are going to choose to adopt the changes around them. Just like there still exists women who elect to remain stay-at-home wives/moms. That is their decision, their choice. We didn't get to where we are by suddenly making tired ideals illegal. We got here (though still have a ways to go yet) by encouraging choice and respecting a woman's decision.

 

[PdotMichael]

The people supporting this ban aren't doing it because they want to help women, they do it because they want to attack a religion.

Why should I tolerate extremists? Burka isn't an religious piece of clothes of the overwhelming part of muslims in Europe.

 

[Ashes]

I absolutely want to attack the salafist brand of Islam.

Your argument carries false weight if you're replacing salafist rules that curtail female freedom by imposing secular law that curtails female & religious freedom.

 

[azyless]

And you're ok with punishing a group of already oppressed women in doing so?

As long as those women are "okay" with not trying to get out of it, yes I suppose. There are structures, there are people willing to help them get out of it, and some do, I see it. Most though just stay with their abusive families because that's what they're used to after all, and I understand that it's not easy, but as long as you're not willing to take a stand I'm not sure what anyone else can do for you. Sorry but to me being oppressed isn't something that can excuse spreading the idea that salafist values are normal and should be accepted by western societies.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

The people supporting this ban aren't doing it because they want to help women, they do it because they want to attack a religion.

No. Don't tell me what it is I actually think.

Also, did it ever occur to you that people oppose a religion's tradition because they want to help women? Notice how no one is asking to ban prayer mats?

How does criminalizing those women help them?

Because remember the only people who can be punished under this ban is the women everyone is so concerned about.

Criminalizing sounds harsh, like they'd jail them or something. But anyway the ban would force them and their male relatives to accept that they get to walk around showing their faces and that the world won't end if they do, at least.

As long as those women are "okay" with not trying to get out of it, yes I suppose. There are structures, there are people willing to help them get out of it, and some do, I see it. Most though just stay with their abusive families because that's what they're used to after all, and I understand that it's not easy, but as long as you're not willing to take a stand I'm not sure what anyone else can do for you. Sorry but to me being oppressed isn't something that can excuse spreading the idea that salafist values are normal and should be accepted by western societies.

Good point, though I'd say they aren't being oppressed by a burka ban, really.

 

[Glass Rebel]

Why should I tolerate extremists? Burka isn't an religious piece of clothes of the overwhelming part of muslims in Europe.

Because this law doesn't attack the extremists.

As long as those women are "okay" with not trying to get out of it, yes I suppose. There are structures, there are people willing to help them get out of it, and some do, I see it. Most though just stay with their abusive families because that's what they're used to after all, and I understand that it's not easy, but as long as you're not willing to take a stand I'm not sure what anyone else can do for you. Sorry but to me being oppressed isn't something that can excuse spreading the idea that salafist values are normal and should be accepted by western societies.

Ah, so you just lack empathy? That's also cool, I guess.

No. Don't tell me what it is I actually think.

Also, did it ever occur to you that people oppose a religion's tradition because they want to help women? Notice how no one is asking to ban prayer mats?

So you try to help women by supporting a law that punishes them?

 

[PdotMichael]

Your argument carries false weight if you're replacing salafist rules that curtail female freedom by imposing secular law that curtails female & religious freedom.

Religious freedom is not on the same level as human rights.

Because this law doesn't attack the extremists.

It does.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

It does.

Do you like, have evidence of that?

 

[Ashes]

Burka isn't part of the overwhelming part of muslims in Europe.

You fail to understand that it needn't be.
The oppression you claim to fight against is tyranny from the state and from religion forcing certain views on women.
Replacing it with another more palatable oppression is self delusional, if you truly value freedom.

 

[Ashes]

Religious freedom is not on the same level as human rights.

I cannot and will not ever agree to this notion. Perhaps you have forgotten that freedom from religion is as much a part of this right you so readily see fit to dispose.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Criminalizing sounds harsh, like they'd jail them or something. But anyway the ban would force them and their male relatives to accept that they get to walk around showing their faces and that the world won't end if they do, at least.

Criminalizing is exactly what is. Even if was a summary offense. I mean this is a harsh action. It's not a touchy feel good thing.

Also would it?

Or would those male relatives just switch to making them stay in.

And those (even if they are few) who choose to for themselves and in the end for those fee the only person affected is themselves, now see their decision criminalized.

And for what?

It's patronizing as fuck to believe that all these women will just "see the light" now that a ban is in place.

It's not that fucking easy

 

[Glass Rebel]

It does.

It doesn't. It bans women from wearing a burqa and it punishes women if they wear it. Not their husbands and male family members that are forcing them to wear them.

 

[PdotMichael]

I cannot and will not ever agree to this notion. Perhaps you have forgotten that freedom from religion is as much a part of this right you so readily see fit to dispose.

Sure, sucks being you then in Europe.

 

[PdotMichael]

It doesn't. It bans women from wearing a burqa and it punishes women if they wear it. Not their husbands and male family members that are forcing them to wear them.

It's the opposite.

It takes away a tool to oppress women from oppresive family structures (which can also include other women).

 

[azyless]

Ah, so you just lack empathy? That's also cool, I guess.

What ? Me empathizing with someone doesn't mean I excuse everything they do. I can condemn the oppression they face and the normalization of extremism that they're spreading. At the same time, crazy I know.

Do you like, have evidence of that?

Read up on it, these types of veils in the west started to appear recently, with the rise of salafism. No moderate muslim would ever wear one and they are in fact vastly in favor of banning it.

 

[Ashes]

Sure, sucks being you then in Europe.

Why? I don't understand what you mean.

 

[Glass Rebel]

It's the opposite.

It takes away a tool to oppress women from oppresive family structures (which can also include other women).

By punishing women.

Are you this dense on purpose?

What ? Me empathizing with someone doesn't mean I excuse everything they do. I can condemn the oppression they face and the normalization of extremism that they're spreading. At the same time, crazy I know.

Are bullying victims normalizing bullying if they don't defend themselves? Are rape victims normalizing rape culture if they don't report it?

 

[KonradLaw]

Good. Face covering veils make it completely impossible to have any real integration.

 

[azyless]

Are bullying victims normalizing bullying if they don't defend themselves? Are rape victims normalizing rape culture if they don't report it?

I don't see how those have anything to do with what I'm saying tbh. Yes, burqa/niqab wearing women are normalizing extremist values by wearing it in public, whether they're directly forced to by others or it's something that they adhere to.

 

[Pusherman]

No. Don't tell me what it is I actually think.

Wow, what a rich thing to say for someone that feels perfectly capable of telling when someone else feels oppressed without even asking them.

You might not personally support a burka ban because of religious hatred but you are still supporting a piece of symbolic legislation and a political discussion that is about far more than just a burka. Across Europe there are political parties that are quite bluntly asking if muslims even have a place here and that use every opportunity to question our 'right' to an European existence. And this burka ban is just one of the ways these political movements operate. So you are still inadvertently helping Islamophobes, and for what exactly? Like I said, in a country like the Netherlands only around 300 women wear a burka and some of those are adult converts, not victims of abusive families. So if we know that some white women freely choose to wear a burka how can we be so sure that all or even most of the non-white women wearing a burka are forced to do so. There are plenty of interviews with women in burka's and niqab defending their right to wear those clothes. Here's a nice interview about clothes and why people wear what they wear: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J08A3arwzxs

A burka ban curtails freedom and punishes women either for making their own choices or for being in an abusive relationship/family, that's literally the only outcome. It also deliberately targets a group that is already marginalized and oppressed and plays into the false narratives set up by Islamophobes. I mean just look at this thread. There are people talking about fighting the spread of salafism as if salafism is always bad or dangerous (it isn't, it is often just conservative) and as if there actually is a real threat of salafism spreading. These very same people of course ignore things like the PVV here in the Netherlands, a party that is literally threatening to change our constitution and start outlawing fucking books and sits at the top of our polls. So don't mind me if I don't believe anyone that says their really scared of their laws and constitutions changing or that say they're looking out for oppressed women. while ignoring actual threats like the European far-right. Those people don't care about actual Western values, they're just racists.

 

[LiamR]

 

[azyless]

Haha I stopped at "salafism isn't always bad".

 

[Irminsul]

The face is precisely what's most visible in that suit.

 

[GuessMyUserName]

Good. Face covering veils make it completely impossible to have any real integration.

Forcing these women out of the public is the very opposite of integration.



For fuck's sake banning the veil will not suddenly enlighten all these "brainwashed" masses. I don't know how so much GAF keeps pretending that it will.

 

[Glass Rebel]

I don't see how those have anything to do with what I'm saying tbh. Yes, burqa/niqab wearing women are normalizing extremist values by wearing it in public, whether they're directly forced to by others or it's something that they adhere to.

You're saying you're ok with punishing women for being oppressed.

 

[His Majesty]

Forcing these women out of the public is the very opposite of integration.

For fuck's sake banning the veil will not suddenly enlighten all these "brainwashed" masses. I don't know how so much GAF keeps pretending that it will.

Of course it will not suddenly enlighten the extremists, that will take much more time. But banning the veil is a start. It will force them to either adapt or move to another country. Key to integration is people interacting with each other. The burqa is a massive barrier in that process that discourages interaction with other people and forces the woman to stay in her own circle of radicalised family and acquaintances.

So no, doing nothing to combat radical Islam will not speed up integration, rather the opposite as Brussels has proven time and time again.

 

[natsuyasumi]

Given my politics I lean in the direction of such bans being counterproductive, but as a feminist white non-Muslim woman I ultimately feel out of my depth on this issue.

I live in the Netherlands [snip] ...I'm sick of being the victim of ethnic profiling, racial discrimination when applying for a job and hate speech and insults, sometimes by major political actors, while every thing done by muslims anywhere in the world is used against me as some kind of proof of my badness. And then people have the gall to talk about muslims having a hard time integrating, often implicitly or explicitly blaming those muslims as the main reason why. You can't ever be really integrated into a society that makes it so obvious it hates and fears you, and after awhile you don't really want to either.

I haven't read a majority of the thread yet, but am glad we have at least some Muslim voices in the mix. My ignorance on this topic has highlighted for me that I have no Muslim friends or acquaintances to confer with IRL. I value your presence.

 

[azyless]

You're saying you're ok with punishing women for being oppressed.

No lol, you're obviously being obtuse. Being oppressed isn't a magical get out of jail free card, you're still responsible for your actions even if there are extenuating circumstances. I'm okay with punishing anyone who normalize extremist values, the fact that in this case it targets women is radical islam's doing, not mine.

 

[Glass Rebel]

No lol, you're obviously being obtuse.

I'm not. This is what that law is doing. It's not punishing the men that oppress these women.

 

[azyless]

I'm not. This is what that law is doing. It's not punishing the men that oppress these women.

It does when women report it. Not sure what you want to do when they don't.

 

[sammyCYBORG]

Absolutely the right call - in public you shouldn't be able to hide your identity fully, regardless of religion, race, or anything else.

 

[Funky Papa]

I think we could all benefit from understanding that this is not a binary issue.

The niqab/burka is used as a tool of oppression. As a matter of fact, you can very easily argue that its sole purpose is to oppress women, no matter how do you try to frame as something that can be worn voluntarily. On the other side, that piece of clothing is meant to be worn outside, so by banning it you are literally criminalising the oppressed and reducing their already endangered autonomy.

This is an extremely complicated situation that should be framed in a different way. Not unlike so many political decisions, a ban is going to be both beneficial and detrimental in different ways. Maybe we should be pondering what is better in regards to the common good, not without thinking about programmes meant to increase equalty among muslims.

 

[Glass Rebel]

It does when women report it. Not sure what you want to do when they don't.

It's not realistic to expect people to report on their own family members. Nobody has said that there's an easy solution to this problem but banning the burqa clearly isn't one of them. Especially if it leads to this.