in the real world things like details, intentions and consequences matter more than empty statements.
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WaPo: Merkel calls for widespread ban on full veil Islamic coverings
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in the real world things like details, intentions and consequences matter more than empty statements.
KO Traveling Hobo
Member
It just seems a little fucked to tell Muslims that if they want to become a part of the West, then they need to give up their immoral religious practices, while we continue to engage in our own immoral religious practices.
Chances are, the only reason they're being targeted is because they are Muslim. Merkel is not taking some grand stance against misogyny here.
edit: I guess we just have to take progress where we can get it.
hydragonwarrior
Member
Canadian here and I see it all the time. And on top of that, in the winter time I stuff myself full of clothes to the point where I look like a damn ninja. If it bothers no one else, then what they wear shouldn't bother me.
That being said, I can see why some people are against it (and not against the hijab). My fear is that they use it to not allow the hijab to be worn later on, which can easily happen if Merkel is usurped by someone more xenophobic and further right.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_headcovering
Surely you've seen a western wedding or funeral. Where exactly did you think that came from?
Sure, but I don't really see that used outside of a few small sects and historically, and never to the extremes that a Burqa or Niquab is. Not defending it, and certainly not proud of its origins, but these are two different situations.
Just seems like pandering to the far-right to me, and nothing else. I see some comments here suggesting the choice to wear a full covering like a burqa may be done voluntarily, but under heavy pressure for many. Which is just speculation of course, but even if it were the case, what will this really solve? As the perception and treatment of women as lesser will still be as much of a problem as ever among the more conservative muslims.
d00d3n
Member
It may entice people to vote for Merkel instead of fascists. Probably not, but maybe.
Comparing male circumcision to restricting the rights of women is an absolutely insane stretch. I am circumcised, I didn't choose to be, but the results of my circumcision are nowhere near the catastrophic result that Islam can have on the lives of women. I'm grossly insulted by this comparison.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
"Our own"? The West isn't ruled by Jews*... Also, you can fight more than one battle. If you think Germany/Canada/USA/whatever ought to outlaw Jewish religious practices you find immoral, you can talk about that separately.
In any case, I find the burka to be a far, far bigger issue than male circumcision. I don't care for non-medical circumcision and am opposed to it by principle, but it's also a fact that most circumcised males do not have, for the most part, their quality of life that impacted, and do not grow up to be oppressed because of it (unlike FGM). But sure, got anymore false equivalences to throw at the wall? Maybe something will eventually stick...
Possible. I am aware that a lot of Islamophobes are faux-feminist concern trolls. I don't see evidence that Merkel is among those though. She is a woman and there's a chance she doesn't care for misogyny for real.
* Unless you're into anti-Semitic conspiracy theories, that is
Thank you.
Right and that demonstrates the problem lies not with the garb or its origins. The whole issue is abuse and this is just the mcguffin some people have decided to chase. I mean what's the endgame here? I don't see you in a headdress outside so everything must be peachy, equality is solved? Domestic violence and abuse never existed before the burka? Only muslims want to hide their faces in public?
It's pretty clear this move is a form of appeasement and is embedded in a certain amount of nationalism and isn't really designed to fix the core issues but assert a type of culture dominance over a religion people fear.
Do any EU countries have an equivalent to the 1st amendment? I know the US doesn't treat muslims well, but at least we let them dress however they want.
Edit: Hell when I was in high school you had to let them, even if it violated the dress code.
KO Traveling Hobo
Member
I meant "our own" in the sense that Judaism, like Christianity, is pretty firmly entrenched in Western civilization, where Islam is still seen as the Other.
Other than that, fair points all around. I'll rethink things.
While the origin might be just as questionable, in the catholic church, the covering was only supposed to be worn during church service or even just parts of it, not generally in public.
The problem is that religion is too strong of a subject for anyone to really question the purpose of such things.
tbf, people are always told to remove their hoodies in department stores. From my small little bubble, I see this as a form of oppression. It's encouraged for the sake of religion. On one of the hottest days in London (earlier this year) in Hyde Park, there were countless women in full veils "sunbathing" for the lack of a better word.
Now, I would assume that the idea to instead wear more appropriate clothing for comfort couldn't even arise because the point of the veil is to show modesty (or something).
It's not even in the Koran, is it? It's a cultural idea where men would tell women to do such a thing. It just doesn't feel like boils down to personal choice the majority of the time.
But because it's religion, you can't discuss it.
fwiw, I don't feel the same way towards a hijab
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edit: fuck I just remember that Peaches passed away ;( I was going to post about her bit on Islam...
tbf, people are always told to remove their hoodies in department stores. From my small little bubble, I see this as a form of oppression. It's encouraged for the sake of religion. On one of the hottest days in London (earlier this year) in Hyde Park, there were countless women in full veils "sunbathing" for the lack of a better word.
Now, I would assume that the idea to instead wear more appropriate clothing for comfort couldn't even arise because the point of the veil is to show modesty (or something).
It's not even in the Koran, is it? It's a cultural idea where men would tell women to do such a thing. It just doesn't feel like boils down to personal choice the majority of the time.
But because it's religion, you can't discuss it.
fwiw, I don't feel the same way towards a hijab
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edit: fuck I just remember that Peaches passed away ;( I was going to post about her bit on Islam...
BarringGaffner
Member
What does 'choose to wear it' mean in a culture/religion where many women are threatened to be divorced from their family/friends, and with abuse/violence if they decide not to wear it?
My only fear is that this pushes women who are forced to wear this to stay at home. It's very sad to think about women in these situations.
It seems to me like you just made up a bunch of strawmen in your post and decided to attack them. I never said any of that.
What I do say, however is unlike a hijab or nun headwear, which I'm certainly not happy with, the Burqa and Naquib are used explicitly for degrading women, making them the sole property of their husbands and families, to the point where no other man may even look at them. That is disgusting, and goes far beyond whatever any other garnets may do.
Arguments can be made that the hijab is a cultural piece of clothing, and I'll accept that; an items origin need not be it's use forever, but I will never defend the use of the Burqa on cultural grounds, because it's not a culture issue, it's an issue of inequality.
Certaibly a move like this won't do anything in the short term, in the long term it may, however. There is nothing wrong with bringing your culture to different countires. However, you must also respect the civil and human rights of western countries as well. The problem will not solve itself by doing nothing. I see a lot of people critisizing this as it will solve nlthing, yet I have not seen any other solutions given to stop the blatant sexism of the burqa.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
This is honestly the only good counter-argument I've seen, to be honest. It's not an ideal solution for real, and perhaps a ban would indeed do more harm than good (I find the evidence lacking in this so far). But I know that the status quo is also not acceptable. I wish there were easier solutions.
It's in the Hadith.
The purpose of the veil is to hide the woman amongst men outside of the family. So other men can not see her. It's an affront to anyone who supports liberal values and equality.
Not wearing hats or hoodies in closed rooms has nothing to do with religion as far as I'm aware, wearing a hat or hoodie indoors is considered a sign of disrespect. The exact origin of this custom isn't clear, but the theories I've seen didn't even mention religion. The two best theories I heard of were that it's either a military tradition and was originally about removing at least your helmet on neutral ground to show you're peaceful (which would also explain why this rule doesn't apply to women), or that wearing a hat while talking with somebody signals that you're in a rush.
kame-sennin
Member
Then don't wear one.
Zombie carpenters and other voodoo stories are even funnier.
Church was also the primary public gathering. In most cases they would be at home while the man was away. But this is kinda getting into irrelevant nitpicking, the point being that men have been dressing women in accordance to their liking for most of history. All the ridiculous stuff worn through history is a product of culture and it's always been gendered. It doesn't really matter what it is, or why, or when, it's about having another person submit to your whims. And just as consistently those same things were reappropriated later on with new meanings.
Those are rhetorical. I expect you don't have a good answer for the "progressiveness" of this as I would expect most won't if they actually ponder where exactly this would go. The best I've seen is a rather misguided notion people will just discard their culture when exposed to a new one as a result of "liberating" new government regulations which not only doesn't tend to happen with any regularity, also tends to produce fear and hatred because when you are socialized a certain way, others stomping on your religious ideals to meet their own morals can be just as degrading. That's cultural relativism in a nutshell.
GuessMyUserName
Member
Here's some perspective from a woman that chooses herself.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KpvAtqwYbA
We had a lot of this debate in Canada during the election so I've been trying to find a certain one where the woman says she does it despite her husband's protests against the veil
Do you really think it's this simple for women in this situation?
Rest
All these years later I still chuckle at what a fucking moron that guy is.
Well if you don't want to see unwanted minorities house arrest works. And you can avoid any kind of culpability if it's self imposed house arrest due to policies that "help" said unwanted minorities. Everybody wins!
I didn't say it was, just that the idea of dress code against stuff that hides ones face in everyday society is common. There's a whole other argument about how a full veil fucks with public safety, CCTV etc.
I mean...
It's more like telling women not to wear something that's largely impractical, and usually only wear it because of religious indoctrinate or the risk of fucking up their social life for refusing... OR the few we have to assume who like being completely covered up in public.
It's weird that you can either be sexist or islamophobic on this topic.
How anyone can simultaneously support liberal ideals and support this veil is beyond me. The veil and the ideas behind it are an assault on the idea of a fair society.
Those are still all reasons that people usually use when telling women what they can and can't wear.
A misguiding sense of liberalism where people will say "let's not get involved!"
You Are Viewtiful
Member
Stop appropriating the word liberal. Liberal means freedom. What you're suggesting is authoritarian-left.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Yeah because the burka is totes a symbol of freedom
The veil is the product of precisely that.
God Dayumm
Banned
It is true, but in what place does that leave the women that are forced both ways?
andythinkpad
Member
It's funny how UK keep the ruling party but lose the prime minister in the process to make the right turn. Germany simply makes the right turn with the same head of state.
No, I meant precisely what I said.
How anyone can support liberal ideals (ideas of a society with equal opportunity and equal treatment) can simultaneously support the burkha/full veils (ideas created with the oppression of a gender in mind, justified only by religious doctrine) is beyond me. There comes a point where we must say, "We are tolerant, but not of intolerance."
You Are Viewtiful
Member
If someone chooses to wear a burqa and their country allows them, then yes it's a sign of freedom. If their country bans from exercising this liberty, it's oppression.
Banning the veil isn't "right-wing". Sheesh
You Are Viewtiful
Member
That is literally not what liberal means. Liberal comes from Latin liber, which means free. It has nothing to do with "equality", not that I agree with your definition of equality either. What your espousing is directly contradictory with liberalism: you're using government to restrict freedoms by interfering with what should be a personal choice.
Does Germany even know how many people this would effect? Like, what, maybe a couple hundred? That justifies a law that's only going to make life more difficult
If this was about fighting the oppression of women, Germany would also ban any church/organization that fights against abortion rights and birth control
If this was about fighting the oppression of women, Germany would also ban any church/organization that fights against abortion rights and birth control
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
But in the reality, it is rarely a personal choice. For the burka I dare say it's never.
PdotMichael
Banned
The Burka itself isn't just a piece of clothes. It's something you can say when your Muslim population is like 1% of the total population but the Burka has a wide range of negative effects on women.
I'm talking about a modern, everyday interpretation of the word. Regardless, I think you understand my meaning.
You think the majority of women wearing burqa/full veils are doing it by choice? I don't know the statistics on the issue, or if there are any, but I'd measure to guess that women typically don't choose to be covered from head-to-toe whenever they go out into public. It's a religious tradition, enforced by doctrine. For some women, not prescribing to these religious traditions means to be ousted from family, friends, and social life.
Is banning the burqa the best solution? I doubt it. But, as it stands, I don't see a better one. These anti-liberal ideas that are still prevalent in Islam need to be changed. Islam needs to adapt to modern culture - just as many other religions have already done.
The only reason we have left-leaning individuals defending the idea of a burqa is because it happens to be inspired by religion. And it's funny - if was Christianity espousing these ideas, people would be much more open to attacking them.
I think you're being a little dense on purpose. You know what he means. And the veil is not representative of any "freedom".
You Are Viewtiful
Member
I and many people have been asking for the receipts on that in this thread, but I've yet to see anyone deliver. It seems it's a common base assumption among many who want to ban it, but is there actually any proof to back up the basic premise?
You are asking for statistics to prove that women don't like being oppressed?
Can you outline why it isn't?
Are there maybe things the German government could do to make it simpler, by providing support structures for the women who want to stop, but without banning religious expression?
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