I'm talking about a modern, everyday interpretation of the word. Regardless, I think you understand my meaning.
You think the majority of women wearing burqa/full veils are doing it by choice? I don't know the statistics on the issue, or if there are any, but I'd measure to guess that women typically don't choose to be covered from head-to-toe whenever they go out into public. It's a religious tradition, enforced by doctrine. For some women, not prescribing to these religious traditions means to be ousted from family, friends, and social life.
Is banning the burqa the best solution? I doubt it. But, as it stands, I don't see a better one. These anti-liberal ideas that are still prevalent in Islam need to be changed. Islam needs to adapt to modern culture - just as many other religions have already done.
The only reason we have left-leaning individuals defending the idea of a burqa is because it happens to be inspired by religion. And it's funny - if was Christianity espousing these ideas, people would be much more open to attacking them.
There's loads of discussion to be had about religions and their treatment of women. I don't think the burqa is great, but if you look for it, you can gleam that muslim women are also divided on the issue, as some women see islamic coverings as a means of flipping a bird to the male gaze.
BUT
when a government strongarms a religion to behave a certain way, that sends off my liberal alarm bells. The best solution is to let muslim women who are being oppressed know that they have an ally in the government and it will protect them. A burqa ban isn't the method to do so
If you think a practice is oppression it does kind of seem like a good idea to start by asking the people doing it whether they're doing it out of fear or repression, or whether they are okay with it, doesn't it?
If people say they're fine with it you can always say they're brainwashed and not in control of their actions like other people in this thread have already done.
"It's not the best solution" isn't a defense. It's a solution period. The only thing it does is push women away from the country that should be opening up to her and give her the freedom to choose. You don't make them "see the light" with laws forced on them. Do you wanna fight against the symbol of the veil? Help them integrate INTO a society where they are not told what to do, don't just push them out of sight so you don't have to deal with it.
If people say they're fine with it you can always say they're brainwashed and not in control of their actions like other people in this thread have already done.
And that's the main criticism of choice feminism in general so it's not like there's a drought of existing and easily applicable literature and discussion on the subject.
If someone chooses to wear a burqa and their country allows them, then yes it's a sign of freedom. If their country bans from exercising this liberty, it's oppression.
I am living in a region of Germany where 20 percent of the population have an Islamic background, yet I have only seen women wearing a burka in public only twice in like the past fifteen years.
It's like a totally non-issue here but is being discussed to hell and back right now because of the coming elections next year and the fear of the potential rising of the far right.
If you think a practice is oppression it does kind of seem like a good idea to start by asking the people doing it whether they're doing it out of fear or repression, or whether they are okay with it, doesn't it?
If people say they're fine with it you can always say they're brainwashed and not in control of their actions like other people in this thread have already done.
Did you know that there was opposition to women voting by women?
I think the fact that the veil doesn't seem particularly attractive to people who aren't born in a culture that tells them they must wear is some indication on whether or not the women "chose" to wear it in the first place.
"It's not the best solution" isn't a defense. It's a solution period. The only thing it does is push women away from the country that should be opening up to her and give her the freedom to choose. You don't make them "see the light" with laws forced on them. Do you wanna fight against the symbol of the veil? Help them integrate INTO a society where they are not told what to do, don't just push them out of sight so you don't have to deal with it.
I don't see how this is supposed to be possible. How can you have a hands off approach to something and expect it change? The point is that German girls are being born into this backwards idea that a woman must hide her body.
I am living in a region of Germany where 20 percent of the population have an Islamic background, yet I have only seen women wearing a burka in public only twice in like the past fifteen years.
It's like a totally non-issue here but is being discussed to hell and back right now because of the coming elections next year and the fear of the potential rising of the far right.
That's the thing with the Burkha. The overwhelming majority of Muslim women don't wear it, and in places where the do wear it in large numbers, it's because they have to by law. It's kinda interesting to me that Muslim women for the most part do not wear the Burkha if they have the choice to do so or not.
That completely nullifies the religious angle for it, and it strongly hints at cultural repression being at the core of what the Burkha represents.
That's the thing with the Burkha. The overwhelming majority of Muslim women don't wear it, and in places where the do wear it in large numbers, it's because they have to by law. It's kinda interesting to me that Muslim women for the most part do not wear the Burkha if they have the choice to do so or not.
That completely nullifies the religious angle for it, and it strongly hints at cultural repression being at the core of what the Burkha represents.
On the other hand, the fact that most Muslim women choose not to wear it in Western countries shows pretty clearly that they suffer no ill effects from that choice, so the ones who do chooose to wear it in those countries are more likely to be acting out of personal expression than out of oppression. After all, they're free to wear whatever they want.
I am living in a region of Germany where 20 percent of the population have an Islamic background, yet I have only seen women wearing a burka in public only twice in like the past fifteen years.
It's like a totally non-issue here but is being discussed to hell and back right now because of the coming elections next year and the fear of the potential rising of the far right.
Yeap this is what politics did to Canada in election season. It was a complete non-issue until Harper saw a single women at the citizenship ceremony and realized Muslims exist in his country. He points it out and then the rest of the country started paying attention and cue all sorts of garbs being pulled off, even just a hijab.
Citizenship and Immigration Canada says since the rule barring the face coverings from being worn took effect in 2011 two women have been refused the chance to take the oath of citizenship because of it.
...
Just to be clear more than 700,000 people have become Canadian citizens since then. So two people out of 700,000 asked to wear a niqab.
I don't see how this is supposed to be possible. How can you have a hands off approach to something and expect it change? The point is that German girls are being born into this backwards idea that a woman must hide her body.
Do you think we have some mass veil epidemic now infecting these countries? People have been immigrating into countries that give them freedom to choose for decades and gradually assimilating, it's a complete non-issue that we already have the solution for.
The reason reverse-oppression doesn't work is because to the very women it affects each side is no different
If you're trying to show these women they don't have to obey their men and families, don't just do the reverse. Show them their choice and have them question why themselves. These are people under what they're wearing.
When your religion thinks that it's fine to hurt/kill LGBTQ people then laws need to be put in place to ensure people are aware that it's not okay and it's not accepted in our society.
If only there were ways to make it unlawful to hurt and kill EVERYBODY. Oh wait, that's already illegal. And I'm pretty sure that anyone coming to "our society" knows that already, they just choose to be assholes and flaunt that law.
If only there were ways to make it unlawful to hurt and kill EVERYBODY. Oh wait, that's already illegal. And I'm pretty sure that anyone coming to "our society" knows that already, they just choose to be assholes and flaunt that law.
I'm talking about a modern, everyday interpretation of the word. Regardless, I think you understand my meaning.
You think the majority of women wearing burqa/full veils are doing it by choice? I don't know the statistics on the issue, or if there are any, but I'd measure to guess that women typically don't choose to be covered from head-to-toe whenever they go out into public. It's a religious tradition, enforced by doctrine. For some women, not prescribing to these religious traditions means to be ousted from family, friends, and social life.
Well, I'd have to disagree that "religious tradition, enforced by doctrine" fundamentally makes it impossible to make the burqa a free choice. When a person becomes an adult, the state has no right to tell people how to practice or believe in their religion or lack thereof.
For some women, sure, it's not their personal choice. But we do a great injustice by then forcing women who choose to wear a burqa on their own accord to take it off. That's its own form of oppression and humiliation. You're still forcing women what to wear and not wear.
Is banning the burqa the best solution? I doubt it. But, as it stands, I don't see a better one. These anti-liberal ideas that are still prevalent in Islam need to be changed. Islam needs to adapt to modern culture - just as many other religions have already done.
The only reason we have left-leaning individuals defending the idea of a burqa is because it happens to be inspired by religion. And it's funny - if was Christianity espousing these ideas, people would be much more open to attacking them.
I can see the need for a solution that protects women forced to wear the burqa against their will. But implementing an ineffective solution just to pretend like you're doing something about it is not the way to go. As someone linked in the previous page, the ban on the burqa in France has done nothing to stop radicalization, and the positive benefits haven't been realized. It's possible that many women who were initially forced to wear a burqa were simply not allowed outside after the burqa ban was passed, further exacerbating the problem. By almost all measures, this was a terrible feel-good solution.
I apologize if I came across as dense. I consider myself a liberal, and when someone accuses of me of following an illiberal ideology, I'd have to challenge that. I believe in freedom of expression and freedom of thought, and freedom of religion (and freedom from religion) is a subset of that.
I'm an ex-Muslim myself. When I joined the Free Thinkers Society at my university, I strongly identified with the club's passion for critical thinking, reasoning, and, as the club's name implied, freedom of thought. When people talked about how to reduce people's Christian religiosity, people were quick to come up with ways to strike down common Christian religious beliefs with reasoning and evidence. However, there was always a stark shift in tone when it came to talking about Islam. Suddenly, it became about banning hijabs in public buildings, banning burqas/niqabs in citizenship ceremonies, banning halal options in school meals, banning prayer rooms/breaks etc. Suddenly, words like "integration" and "assimilation" were being thrown around. Suddenly, it became about legislating how people should behave, rather than directing how people should think.
I think this burqa ban is the wrong way to go about it. Just like atheism gained its foothold in the Western Christian World through Renaissance ideals of critical thinking and challenging perceptions, and not always through legislating away religion (although, that depends on country), we should challenge Islamic belief, point by point, and get Muslims to start questioning their default modes of thought.* What doesn't help is this "otherizing" tactic of banning "foreign" beliefs. That's going to make an identity issue, instead of a belief issue (especially after you're seen with your far-right bedfellows). It's going to make it an emotional issue, instead of one that can be argued logically. This burqa ban will not solve the issue of radicalization, and it will not protect women, it will make it worse. This is all evident in the French experiment.
*
My personal eye-opener or tipping point was Grade 11 philosophy class, where we were forced to debate whether a God existed or not by using logical reasoning, which I couldn't do. Well, even before that, my religiosity significantly reduced by simply arguing religion online and eventually cherrypicking the parts I liked and ignoring the parts I didn't like, after I realized I didn't agree with them. Both my brothers are also atheists. A lot of my cousins and friends, while still being devout Muslims, believe in things like gay marriage, because they believe in the logical reasoning behind secularism and human rights. There are no laws in Canada banning burqas or targeting any specific religion, and that works to our benefit in my experience. Any decent education system should equip it's population with the reasoning skills to function in society.
This more highlights how ridiculous the other side of the debate is, rather than mine, tbh. To think someone exercising free choice is an example of oppression is laughable.
On the other hand, the fact that most Muslim women choose not to wear it in Western countries shows pretty clearly that they suffer no ill effects from that choice, so the ones who do chooose to wear it in those countries are more likely to be acting out of personal expression than out of oppression. After all, they're free to wear whatever they want.
Social conditioning for girls and women to follow strict, culturally created, interpretation of the religion is extremely common. Also, you tend to find a higher observance of Burkha amongst Muslim women who come from regions where the practice is more common.
I mean, so did America's actions and laws until quite recently, and we're a secular democracy. So did most countries in the world, including Europe.
I'm not saying that Saudi Arabia or Islamic people who oppress LGBT don't deserve serious resistance on this issue. They clearly do. But that doesn't automatically extend to every person who practices Islam. Lots of people practice Islam while accepting the rights of LGBT people.
If you're trying to show these women they don't have to obey their men and families, don't just do the reverse. Show them their choice and have them question why themselves. These are people under what they're wearing.
That's not how it works if they those women and embedded in social and family structures which don't allow self determination which even includes horror killing of such women.
That's not how it works if they those women and embedded in social and family structures which don't allow self determination which even includes horror killing of such women.
For all the babbling about protecting women we ignore that the only ones who would be punished by the fines (or jail but I'm assuming it's a summary offense) are.... women.
If women's oppression is the issue this is just banning a symptom so we can ignore the disease.
Do you think the men who have such control over their wives that they can force them to wear the burka are gonna go well now that it is illegal guess there's nothing I can do. Nope, they'll just force their wives to stay in...
Then of course those who choose it for themselves are just SOL...
This does fuck nothing to solve any issues. It's an ego move to make everyone think yeah we're totally standing up for women! This isn't to protect muslim women, it's to placate white Germans and make them feel better.
We can, and should, talk about the oppressive issues within the burka debate and others, but the solution shouldn't be criminalizing the very same women we're claiming to care about.
That's not how it works if they those women and embedded in social and family structures which don't allow self determination which even includes horror killing of such women.
Good. The burqa and niqab have nothing to do in a western society (or any society at all really).
I still don't understand the mental gymnastics some people do when they say "oh yet another person telling muslim women how to dress", as if muslim women are born just naturally wanting to cover themselves from head to toes instead of being told so by centuries of systemic oppression brought on by their own religion.
Making a form of clothing illegal has no place in western society. Corsets were a form of oppression from the Victorian era. Should women choosing to wear those be illegal?
A ban of full-veil style clothing in public buildings and the like is such a minor issue to be almost irrelevant*, which is exactly why Merkel didn't hesitate to use it to appease her party's conservative wing.
*(the number of wearers that actually exist is miniscule)
At least in Malaysia there is very strong constant social pressure from family and local religious leader on a woman to cover up. It is unclear how much is from a woman's own free will.
Good. The burqa and niqab have nothing to do in a western society (or any society at all really).
I still don't understand the mental gymnastics some people do when they say "oh yet another person telling muslim women how to dress", as if muslim women are born just naturally wanting to cover themselves from head to toes instead of being told so by centuries of systemic oppression brought on by their own religion.
It's just a politically calculated decision.
She is smart and she wants (needs) to weaken the AFD by taking the 'left wing' of the AFD back to the 'right wing' of the CDU. There they strengthen her political position, help her to be reelected, but can't do much real harm to public since in the end she won't listen to them.
And to be honest I'm kind of ok with this strategy.
(If this topic here at hand is the right way to achieve this goal is another story)
It's kind of disturbing when on GAF a place which knows and talks about things like systemic oppression all the time basically ignores all the things and suddenly Burka is like the pinnacle of individualism for women.
But we have a Erdogan Defence Force as well on GAF.
It's kind of disturbing when on GAF a place which knows and talks about things like systemic oppression all the time basically ignores all the things and suddenly Burka is like the pinnacle of individualism for women.
Unless they are going for a ban on all articles of clothing that obscure the face in public spaces due to legitimate safety concerns (and that should mean all clothing articles), then I can't say I agree with this specific banning of clothing. If the concern is with women being forced to where the niquab or burka against their will, then they should make more outreach social services available in Muslim communities to help abused women find justice and punish their oppressors.
Are you implying religion and centuries of sexist "traditions" have no influence on women ?
The burqa and niqab are salafist trends that have nothing to do here, plenty of muslims/ex-muslims and Islam experts agree on this but as usual we get americans butting in on an issue they know nothing about and will likely never be concerned with considering how little muslims live in America and how screened they are.
It's kind of disturbing when on GAF a place which knows and talks about things like systemic oppression all the time basically ignores all the things and suddenly Burka is like the pinnacle of individualism for women.
But we have a Erdogan Defence Force as well on GAF.
It's kind of disturbing when on GAF a place which knows and talks about things like systemic oppression all the time basically ignores all the things and suddenly Burka is like the pinnacle of individualism for women.
But we have a Erdogan Defence Force as well on GAF.
Literally the reason you want to ban burkas is that you believe that dictating what women are allowed to wear is oppression, so arguing that it isn't is...questionable.
Yes, banning Burkas in places like schools is indeed not opression.
The sad reality was that overly religious parents banned their daughters from school trips and PE. But banning burka is sure the worst opression women in Germany ever faced!
It's a completely non issue going by the fact that barely anyone uses it. There's probably a thousand times more people wearing furry outfits in Germany than burqas.
Merkel is just playing politics and trying to neutralize the far right with this non-issue (I believe this just fuels and strengths their position).
The burqa absolutely represents oppression, and we can question the choices of those women who decide to use it. But making a spectacle out of its banning seems counterproductive.
Back that up. Last I checked oppression was the unjust treatment of people. Dictating what clothing a person cannot wear impedes on their freedom of wear. Atop of that banning this sort of clothing is going to unfairly impact Muslim woman to a higher degree than Muslim men. Do you believe the sort of husband who forces his wife into these sorts of clothing is just going to say 'oh okay Merkel/the government says its not cool, time to expunge that from our life'? No, those with that sort of control are going to go even further in their mistreatment and force their wives to remain at home. What a terrific conclusion we've reached with this. But apparently you're blind to this and seem to think just banning the clothing is an act of liberation. We should be seeking to empower those women affected to break their chains, not doing the minimal effort of adding an additional vector of control over them.
