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WaPo: Merkel calls for widespread ban on full veil Islamic coverings
- Thread starter Bonen no Max'd
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Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
I'm not sure how this is relevant to the OP.
Interesting. I can definitely see how it's taking away a freedom to wear what you like but covering your face has always been a no in most societies unless under certain situations like safety, sports, extreme cold, police, celebrations etc. They should maybe put it under that law instead of primarily focusing on part of a Muslim culture. Western society has been extremely tolerant but I think you need to start forcing some standards if you want integration to work better and leave bad culture behind like oppression because we can't wait and hope it filters out because we will just end up with bigger problems that have set up deep roots in our societies. It will always look like picking on cultural values which doesn't look good but I'm not against stamping out bad aspects so integration goes better, we shouldn't tip toe around it anymore but be careful to not bringing the hammer down on just one culture, we should strive for and be proud of good standard values.
That alone doesn't work though, we have to help the oppressed as well not ignore them.
That alone doesn't work though, we have to help the oppressed as well not ignore them.
Audioboxer
Member
At this point I'm slowly resigning myself to we'll see how things like this go. For too many years we've just sat around twiddling our thumbs saying protect the oppression as the oppressers and oppressed will slowly change over time if they want to live in our societies. This hasn't been happening. In the UK alone integration is clearly hardly happening and as always any polling that is done comes out with troubling stats. Every time it is complete and utter disdain of women. Like sheer hate and looking down upon them. It boggles my mind how some progressives tie themselves in knots calling themselves feminists and then defending oppression as on the oppression Olympics score board Islamists are ranked higher than women. That is shocking. No religious ideology should be ranked higher than women.
If people want to value their oppressive religious regimes more than the nation they want to live in then I'd ask them what they really prioritise? There are plenty of extremist Islamic nations one can go live in which practice Sharia Law openly and follow strict and barbaric legal code. Why the wish to live in say Germany when these delightful places already exist where you can assimilate and congregate only with people who think like you? Fact of the matter is most of these people probably want to escape the oppression, but then ironically wish to try and inject at least part of it in nations and societies who largely do not value the same principles.
At this stage I just don't have answers. I think this is a bullish way to do things, but it's going to keep happening as pushback to oppressive ideologies. Sadly this human battle will probably be fought for the next couple of hundred years. I wish no individuals personal harm or upset, but sadly there is going to be casualties and always will be.
If people want to value their oppressive religious regimes more than the nation they want to live in then I'd ask them what they really prioritise? There are plenty of extremist Islamic nations one can go live in which practice Sharia Law openly and follow strict and barbaric legal code. Why the wish to live in say Germany when these delightful places already exist where you can assimilate and congregate only with people who think like you? Fact of the matter is most of these people probably want to escape the oppression, but then ironically wish to try and inject at least part of it in nations and societies who largely do not value the same principles.
At this stage I just don't have answers. I think this is a bullish way to do things, but it's going to keep happening as pushback to oppressive ideologies. Sadly this human battle will probably be fought for the next couple of hundred years. I wish no individuals personal harm or upset, but sadly there is going to be casualties and always will be.
iceatcs
Junior Member
What I mean, easy get away the crime.
Discotheque
Banned
the problem with this law is that it's such a non issue. how many people in Germany are wearing niqabs? lmao. i'll tell you what really is spreading all over Europe though, massive islamophobia, this ineffective and practically useless law will just stoke that fire even further.
Merkel just selling out to get votes from a lot of those assholes. This is Trump's world now, WATTBA.
Merkel just selling out to get votes from a lot of those assholes. This is Trump's world now, WATTBA.
GuessMyUserName
Member
Wearing the veil does not make one an extremist. And no, the ban does not force them to adapt, it forces them to stay at home. To stay in their inner-society that will "respect" their lifestyle and only strengthen those beliefs.
You talk about burqas forcing women to stay in their circles (it doesn't, I've encountered plenty on campus that are as friendly as anyone else) and your solution is to legally push them into those circles. Bans from public schools? Fantastic, now the children will only grow up with the indoctrination of their parents. But at least you don't have to see it anymore!
And "remove your veil or move out of the country" is an abhorrent idea and the very definition of "out of sight out of mind". Get them out of the country so they instead live in their own bubbles that reinforce those values isn't what we should be going for.
The argument against the veil is that it's forced on them and that they don't have the choice. You can't say that and then punish the women for what you say is forced onto them under the logic that "they're responsible". The problem is that they AREN'T responsible, that's the whole damn issue!
The fact that YOU want to target these women with laws is very much your own opinion and you don't get to push blame anywhere else when it's wholly unnecessary.
Sucks but in the end if you're not willing to make that step no one can make it for you, the burqa and niqabs aren't normal innocent practices and we don't have to accept it.
This is far from being the only argument against it and it's not the one I consider the most important tbh so.
Why does this happen to only target women ? Why aren't men and non muslims wearing these ? I'll wait.
Glass Rebel
Member
Camp Freddie
Member
I agree. Getting rid of the niquab and burka would be great, but 'banning' it will just lead to further oppression and hate crimes against already vulnerable women.
Women will still wear it, because a 100 Euro fine is a small price to pay for not being ostracised from their family/community. And when was the last time you saw a policeman on the street? And how many policemen will just turn a blind eye rather than get themselves involved in such a politicised issue?
And they won't (and in some cases won't be able to) pay the fines, so it'll go all the way to high/supreme courts and drag on for years, dividing communities further as they split into pro and anti-niquab factions.
Merkel's playing a dangerous game here. But hey, 2016 is all about politicians promising things that sound great when you hear them but are completely impossible when you think about it more deeply.
I guess Germany needs to make this token effort at post-truth politics, lest we think they're lagging behind the outstanding fucknuttery of the Brits and Americans.
GuessMyUserName
Member
Are you asking me to defend the practice of veils? I don't, I would never suggest anyone to hide away their selves. I just don't see anything beneficial, or rather I see it harmful to punish women who do, for whatever reason that is.
I have plenty of empathy, I see women like these everyday, women that I used to party with 6 years ago that are now not allowed to leave home without a male presence, etc. Of course I feel sorry for them. Plenty of people do, plenty of people tell them to call social services or the police, to talk to someone. Guess what ? Most of them never do. Most of them let their family drift towards radicalisation and spread these ideas in entire neighbourhoods, I'm sorry but oppressed or not I can't excuse that.
I see the normalization and spreading of radical islam as more harmful in the end.
"not a literal terrorist" isn't my baseline for what's considered "not bad", sorry.
astroturfing
Member
from what i've read there's a strain of salafism that is staunchly anti-violent, and very much against the other more hardline salafists. if it wasn't for them there'd be even more dangerous extremists..
the world is complex.
Burqa is a symbol of radicalisation and oppression. If a woman wants to wear a burka doesn't make OK by default. Is not that in our society is OK to wear whatever you want no questions asked.
Exaggerating the comparison is like telling that if somebody wants to wear a SS uniform in public is OK just because that person wants to wear it.
Or take US and confederate flag. Freedom should not be the excuse for waving a symbol of oppression.
As for victims being punished for something that's not their fault, there should be mechanisms in place for the victim to report whoever makes her wear that.
Anyhow, the discussion has gone way beyond what Merkel proposed, which is just a mere ban on covering the face in some specific conditions (which includes burka, but also other items which have nothing to do with religion).
Exaggerating the comparison is like telling that if somebody wants to wear a SS uniform in public is OK just because that person wants to wear it.
Or take US and confederate flag. Freedom should not be the excuse for waving a symbol of oppression.
As for victims being punished for something that's not their fault, there should be mechanisms in place for the victim to report whoever makes her wear that.
Anyhow, the discussion has gone way beyond what Merkel proposed, which is just a mere ban on covering the face in some specific conditions (which includes burka, but also other items which have nothing to do with religion).
psychowave
Member
On the one hand, the veil is a tool of oppression against women and should be eliminated. On the other hand, I feel like this shouldn't be forced on islamic women by external parties, but rather is a change that should come from within.
I can't say I'm 100% against the ban, but I don't think it's the best way to go about things, either.
I can't say I'm 100% against the ban, but I don't think it's the best way to go about things, either.
Glass Rebel
Member
There are mechanisms for that. In France the women wearing a burqa are only fined around 100 or something whereas forcing someone to wear one nets you a 30'000-60'000 fine. The problem is that women aren't gonna report on their family members. Germany is a different country and a different society so it might work but the situation in France isn't exactly encouraging as it had the exact opposite effect.
That's your loss then. By all means keep being ignorant.
I saw someone refer to me as a muslim voice but the crazy thing is, I'm not even muslim. I was raised muslim and I still have many muslim relatives including my dad but I myself am atheist. I also see myself as a feminist and I greatly support the rights of the LGBT community. I am staunchly progressive. But I cannot and will not identify with a society where all I will ever be is 'one of the good ones'. I have experienced the complexity of Islam and the muslim community first hand and I will not throw my family and friends under the bus. Salafism is a conservative strain of Islam. Often it is apolitical but sometimes it isn't.
Now I happen to think that most if not all religions are patriarchal, misogynistic and controlling and I think non-Western strains of religions often have an increased prevalence of those aspects of religion because those areas have not yet had a real feminist movement in the same way the West has had. The reasons for it's absence are by the way far more complex than 'they're Islamic'. India, rural places across Asia and a lot of places in Sub-Saharan Africa are also not as feminist as the West without being Muslim. Anyway, of course conservative strains of religion are even worse at being patriarchal, misogynist and controlling than liberal strains and in that way conservatism is always bad. I somewhat agree with that. But that doesn't mean that conservatism, especially apolitical conservatism, should be demonized or painted as being threatening.
This is especially dangerous to do when it is aimed at a largely apolitical strain of conservatism within a marginalized and oppressed minority. It will just harm everyone within that community. And I am talking about real harm. My younger brother was harassed at work by coworkers because he is muslim and the supervisors didn't step in because they kinda agreed with the Islamophobia. It made me realize just how normal Islamophobia has become in Europe.
So I won't support symbolic legislation like a burka ban. I agree that the idea behind a face-veil is patriarchal and even misogynist but that doesn't mean that all women who wear one are forced to do so. As I said, there are plenty of interviews with women defending their right to wear one and also interviews with white women from an atheist or christian background converting to Islam and wanting to wear a face-veil. So on what basis does anyone think a ban like this will help anyone or do any good. The only real motive behind a burka ban is: we don't want to see women wear one even if it is their own choice because it isn't 'Western' enough. That sentiment is literally the only real reason and it is a sentiment pretty clear even in this thread. And I don't support that sentiment at all. I am not more Western than my dad just because he is muslim and I am not. There are no degrees of being Western and I won't support anything that even slightly indicates that there is.
Audioboxer
Member
That just hasn't been happening though, and largely it's due to non-assimilation and said people continuing to stay tightly within communities of strict group-think. If it doesn't inspire them to want to change when they see other women in our societies, how do we inspire change? We laud freedoms and empowerment in front of them all the time. Women wearing what they want, women driving, women voting, and women not needing a fucking driver/bodyguard/man to escort them around.
Genuine question because we are failing to do it and have for ages. As I said above I'm out of ideas, and normally when that happens people start to make the bullish and last ditch attempts to prevent stagnation or worse, furthering of oppression within your society.
Germany is being empathetic and letting in far more Islamic immigrants than anywhere else, but with that potentially comes further penetration of oppressive behaviour/thinking in your society. It's a complex battle of ideas, but one we are largely losing even within our own societies.
Gangster Bastard
Member
Like much of the old world Germany ain't America, it's a lot less liberal than you might think. I mean they still have blasphemy laws for crying out loud. Restricting the veil probably wouldn't be out of line with their political tradition. Ban a little bit here, censor a little bit there etc.
Now if coercion is the issue, the headscarf is probably more problematic than the face veil. As I understand it most women who wear the niqab actively choose to do so in the face of much opposition from their own families, as most muslims find it to be a symbol of extremism, quite unlike the hijab.
On the other hand these women are most likely religious nuts with potentially dangerous worldviews, and this is where the real women's rights angle comes in (among many other things), see women are just as complicit as men in perpetuating oppression against the female gender.
Restricting the veil doesn't really challenge the underlying ideas but it does send a message that this stuff belongs only on the furthest margins of society.
I myself am pretty thorn on the issue, I'm absolutely against a blanket ban, but it should be restricted in places like schools.
Now if coercion is the issue, the headscarf is probably more problematic than the face veil. As I understand it most women who wear the niqab actively choose to do so in the face of much opposition from their own families, as most muslims find it to be a symbol of extremism, quite unlike the hijab.
On the other hand these women are most likely religious nuts with potentially dangerous worldviews, and this is where the real women's rights angle comes in (among many other things), see women are just as complicit as men in perpetuating oppression against the female gender.
Restricting the veil doesn't really challenge the underlying ideas but it does send a message that this stuff belongs only on the furthest margins of society.
I myself am pretty thorn on the issue, I'm absolutely against a blanket ban, but it should be restricted in places like schools.
psychowave
Member
Perhaps you're right and there isn't any other way, but I feel like looking at Western women in shorts isn't enough. Us Western women, and feminists especially, should actively reach out to these women and actually talk to them about these issues. I think we don't do enough of that.
Women can be misogynist too. Women can be radicalised too. Some women wanting to wear a symbol of radicalisation and misogyny is not an excuse for it to be OK. Hell, there are a lot of christian women who are religious nuts and attack other women's right to their body in US and all over the world. That doesn't make it OK.
Audioboxer
Member
Well I can agree there.
Another issue though is the MEN. It's not as if they are seeking to be re-educated. They literally enact dominance and power over their women and family. Meaning can you imagine being a women who is oppressed and tries to change? You'll probably get battered, raped or chucked to the curb whilst said man goes off with one of his other 7 wives. That's if you don't already get beaten for just being a women. Look at the attitudes of some of these immigrant men. Starting Sharia Law "police forces", rape gangs and more... It's not the women doing that. Or at least it must be 95% men, maybe some women join Sharia "police forces". They certainly aren't raping anyone though.
Forcing change even with its consequences means you try to also force the men to change. If you think indoctrinated and oppressed women are hard to change, good luck trying to change the men they are often attached to. That to me is one of the largest issues, as even with women who flee to some of our societies wanting to change, they've got a partner who controls them and a family who would ostracize them if they ever "Westernized". Where else are they going to go? It's not easy moving to another country, and then on top of that, dropping your whole family and friends and being alone as you were outcast.
As you said, it's a non-issue. If this is what it takes to steal far-right leaning votes away from the actual far-right party AfD though, I'm all for it.
I don't care about religious freedom, there are more important rights to protect.
excelsiorlef
Member
And when the far right asks for more next time?
psychowave
Member
Absolutely, but changing the oppressor's mind is a lot harder than changing the minds of the oppressed, since they're the ones benefitting from the situation. Besides that, as a woman I often feel rather hopeless when it comes to educating men on issues of feminism and oppression, which is why I personally prefer to focus on women. They're a bit more likely to listen.
You really think banning the burka is all the far-right is asking for right now?
Besides, I'm pretty sure the vast majority approves a ban on burkas. No matter where they stand politically.
Audioboxer
Member
A laudable approach, but the women who originate from the West no doubt have family and support groups at their fingertips who think alike. Not to mention for as bad a wrap as men get over here, there are plenty of decent men you can find. Whether that means leaving a past abusive partner, or trying to find your first long term partner. This isn't to say there aren't decent men in many places of the world, but let us talk frank about the behaviour of many who subscribe to Islamism in its most literal senses.
The difficulty trying to reach out to the immigrant women coming here is as I said above. They largely come with partners, and said partners are all they have. If they step "out of line" the consequences are so grave and unlike women potentially born here they have no one else to turn to. On top of that when assimilation largely fails said women are confined to their immediate families, or families of the exact same lines of thinking. Therefore they are stuck in a never-ending cycle of not really having an opportunity to break free without massive consequences. At times even deadly consequences.
While indoctrination can already be tough enough to rewire, adding threats to your personal safety on top is like a knock out punch of completely stopping any sort of progressive change in its place.
I think the full veil should be discouraged and every effort should be made made to convince women not to wear it because its creates division and cuts women off but I just don't think you should be able to ban what people wear. Take it off in a court or a bank but there shouldn't be a law against it.
Of course it is not an official ruling, but it seems unlikely the government would ignore the reports of the academic office of Bundestag. Even then, I don't see how they would reach a majority for that decision in Bundestag. I know that there can be vastly diffferent interpretations to law, but I don't see how a general ban would not violate GG. Partial explicit restrictions, albeit officially decoupled from a particular religion to preserve neutrality, are another thing.
Doesn't the burka already fall under §17a VersG (2)? I know that article implies the intention to avoid identification, but that seems implicitly given in case of burka/niqab.
Dude, that's exactly the situations we are talking about here. The government can't just ban it out of existence.
boiled goose
good with gravy
Disagree with Europe on this.
Fight through education, not mandates.
Of course dress codes can be regulated in certain spaces like workplace and for Ids etc.
This type of ban is gross and silly because it's arbitrary. Costumes banned too? Once your in the business of mind reading, legislation is stupid.
Fight through education, not mandates.
Of course dress codes can be regulated in certain spaces like workplace and for Ids etc.
This type of ban is gross and silly because it's arbitrary. Costumes banned too? Once your in the business of mind reading, legislation is stupid.
Vermummungsverbot is usually only a thing at demonstrations and similar occasions.
That is what I was talking about regarding §17a VersG (Versammlungsgesetz). A general ban on the basis of that article seems impossible. I mentioned WD 3 - 46/10 Das Tragen einer Burka im öffentlichen Raum, which even argues that a ban only in those cases would likely not be feasible. I disagree on that particular point, but either way, I don't see how a general ban would be feasible, either legally or politically.
You are out of ideas?!? How about accepting muslims, all muslims, as a deserving group within Western society. Jesus Christ, self-segregation is a fucking myth. In the UK west-indians are also segregated. In the US the different races are also segregated. You think minorities like social exclusion? You think minorities like living in poorer neighborhoods? Do you think white flight isn't a thing that exists? Europe has failed its minorities... all of them. To go back to the situation in the Netherlands, most racial minorities live in the 4 biggest cities, in minority-majority neighborhoods. This goes for all minorities, not just the muslim ones. The two minority groups most over-represented in the criminal justice system here in the Netherlands are Moroccans, muslim, and Antillians, non-muslim and black. Personal responsibilities are always a crutch used to by Western governments to not do anything to better the lives of racial and religious minorities. The only battle of ideas the West is losing is the one between a cosmopolitan, inclusive left and a racist nativist far-right.
psychowave
Member
Fair enough, but that process of education of misogynistic muslim men should then come from other men who are feminist allies, not women. If these men are so violent towards women of their own culture, why would they treat me, a feminist who tries to tell them they should give up their privileges, any differently? Why would they take me, an outsider, seriously? I'm not mentally prepared to make that effort, though I'm sure other feminists are.
The scientific service of the Bundestag looked already into this and and its not possible to ban this: https://www.bundestag.de/blob/419496/00f00954574cba407959a8aae2a82caf/wd-3-302-14-pdf-data.pdf
If you dont want to read through it, here is Christopher Lauer talking about it and telling what it is about: http://www.christopherlauer.de/2016/11/23/li089/
Its just fishing on the right wing.
If you dont want to read through it, here is Christopher Lauer talking about it and telling what it is about: http://www.christopherlauer.de/2016/11/23/li089/
Its just fishing on the right wing.
Frankfurter
Member
Merkels words are vague enough that she might just intend to do that, actually. I.e. use existing laws and enforce them on Burkas.
ReplacementPelican
Member
You could apply that to so much its not even a funny thing to take the piss out of. I mean, shit, you can easily apply it to the religion of the girl itself or really the religion of most people on Earth.
PrimaNocta
Member
I have no problem with this in a public setting.
psychowave
Member
Of course you could, that's kind of the point. You should, in fact. How much of what we do and believe has been indoctrinated since we were kids?
Did people forget she's CDU? I guess her handling of the refugee crisis did distract from that a bit but this is pretty much what you'd expect from a politician of her party.
Personally I'm opposed to these religious garbs, they come from a tradition where it's a silent assumption that men cannot control their urges and women need to hide to be safe near them. But all a ban on the symptom will do is make these women feel unsafe.
Personally I'm opposed to these religious garbs, they come from a tradition where it's a silent assumption that men cannot control their urges and women need to hide to be safe near them. But all a ban on the symptom will do is make these women feel unsafe.
And this is where its possible to ban - Woman who work in the administration can be forced to take it of through the House right, because they represent the state.
Christopher is looking in my link into this and I think he mentions that every administration has to enforce that on its own.
Audioboxer
Member
You do realize not every Muslim is part of some grand circle you can call down to say "respect Muslims!". This line of thinking is annoying many liberals and decent minded people trying to actively help oppressed women. I mean it's probably not long before we start rolling out the "racist!", "bigot!", Ben Affleck spiel.
Europe is allowing immigrants in at least. Go see how the UAE is doing with immigrants? Many trying to flee death in some countries have to travel half the continent to the UK when there are neighbouring countries refusing to take them in? Yeah, sure, lets just throw the whole of Europe under a bus. Maybe if we behaved like said neighbouring countries, many who are rich as fuck, who do fuck all to help you'd have a point.
Let me end with this, you can scream these women have choice all you want, but said choice is like telling them they are going to have to play a game of russian roulette, except instead of one bullet, the gun is fully loaded, six bullets. But you say, isn't that a zero-sum game? Well sure, BUT, you can spin the barrel for as long as you like! You have the choice of where it sits! Yeah, fucking great, no matter where those women chose to stop spinning the barrel, when they pull the trigger they are dead. So you wonder why like none of them are going down to Marks and Spencers and buying a pair of shorts and a tshirt for 30 degree summers? Because if they make that choice they will be ostracized, beaten, rejected, raped or utterly outcast and left alone. So great, Germany and the UK may not enact Sharia Law and have the government jailing these women for driving, dressing how they want or having sex, but their partners when they come over here sure as hell keep the women in-line as if they were right back at home in the country they probably fled.
But by all means faux-progressives like yourself will surely sort all of this out, because the rest of us clearly just haven't been trying hard enough... and the countries letting millions in be damned as well.
They won't come to you, they won't accept help and education and therefore this is why progress is at a glacier melting pace.
Oh right thats perfectly reasonable then. I thought they were trying to ban it in all public spaces. Thats complete bullshit no matter how vile the veil is.
astroturfing
Member
are face covering furry costumes banned then too, or can muslim women wear them if they choose?
And it's losing that battle because a part of the left doesn't know how to prioritise the battles. Choosing the burqa as a symbol for religious freedom and inclusion? Really?
According to the existing/proposed law, anything that covers the face in such a way that make identification difficult is banned. And only in certain places.
hawkshockey11
Banned
Historically we are a overwhelmingly patriarchal species :/
I think that Merkel is making a statement here about how german culture and values are supposed to be the "leidkultur" of Germany. She has famously stated that multiculturalism is dead after all. She's saying that an opressive item such as the burka is such an antithesis to the (percieved) german cultural values of equality between the sexes that it's existance within german culture is simply impossible even if the choice to wear it is volontairy.
Wether it actually "frees" these women or not is secondary, I think.
As a side note, the idea that we are free to wear what we want merely because it's not illegal is laughable. Try going to work in a pajamas. Or a job interview in khaki shorts and sandals. Invisible laws are as strong, if not stronger, than written ones.
Wether it actually "frees" these women or not is secondary, I think.
As a side note, the idea that we are free to wear what we want merely because it's not illegal is laughable. Try going to work in a pajamas. Or a job interview in khaki shorts and sandals. Invisible laws are as strong, if not stronger, than written ones.
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