Trigonometrize.
Member
I don't know if you know this... but Vader and Anakin are ostensibly the same character.
Rogue One: A Star Wars Story |OT| They rebel - SPOILERS
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I don't know if you know this... but Vader and Anakin are ostensibly the same character.
Darth Vader killed Anakin Skywalker.
Trigonometrize.
Member
Flimsy patchwork of incomplete story ideas from A New Hope does not change the fact that it's the same man.
Okay, I saw it again. And I think I finally figured out Rogue One's pacing problem.
There are 3 main plot points of Jyn's story. Find Saw Gerera (and thus the hologram of her father), prove their existence to the rebel alliance, steal the plans.
The problem is in the second point. The movie first provides proof in the form of Galen's hologram, but that's lost in the fire of the death star. The crew then tries to retrieve Galen himself, but he dies. Finally, they go to the Rebel Alliance with what they have, and they don't move on it, which leads them to going "screw it" and attacking Scariff anyway.
The entire middle third/half of the movie is spent trying to authenticate a plot point that is tossed aside in the end anyway. As a result, in terms of pure plot, it feels like a lot of wasted time, as they keep trying to solve a problem in which 2 separate solutions have slipped through their fingers. This isn't an inherently unworkable problem, but they have to fill the space in which they do all this with meaningful character moments. Otherwise, the characters are just spinning their wheels in place.
And we indeed get a few for Jyn and Cassian, but not for the rest of the crew, which really needed those moments to be fleshed out. Where the film could have introduced and developed character arcs for these minor characters, they instead just focus on a plot problem that will ultimately be made irrelevant.
Now, the other big problem is Jyn. I said before that her motivation for doing what she did never felt like it was her own. This time, I paid attention to why she was doing what she was doing. She starts the film a prisoner under a false name, before being freed by the rebel alliance. They basically threaten her and give her an ultimatum: Help establish contact with Saw Gerera or we tell the Empire you're really Jyn Urso. Her motivation up until she actually meets Saw Gerera is pure self preservation and she openly states she has complete apathy over the galactic war. She is more or less completely self serving up to here.
Then she sees her father's message of love and affection for her, which breaks her down emotionally somewhat. At this point, Galen has literally defined the flaw in the death star as 'his revenge' and it is this that Jyn sticks to for the rest of the film. If the film hadn't been insistent on that terminology, I feel I would have less problem with Jyn's character arc, but even at the very end, she defines the plan to Krennic as her father's revenge. Not her own. I mean, given her contribution and sacrifice to the rebels getting the plans, this could have easily become 'their' revenge, but Jyn clearly states that she is merely acting out the will of her father.
So, I ask what I asked before: What does Jyn want for herself? I tried to pay attention to this aspect, but there's just very little to go on. And part of it is because her relationship with her dad, if sweet, isn't terribly compelling. He loves her, and she loves him, and that's pretty much all there is to say about it. Her father just keeps making saccharine speeches to his beloved 'star dust' while Jyn looks on longingly at the father who was taken away from her. And that's not inherently bad, but he didn't seem to have any actual desires or expectations of her, nor she from him, which could have added some layers to their loving relationship. Her acting out the will of her father could have worked if the relationship she had with him was interesting, but all we get is bland platitudes of fatherly love.
So we have a character who wants nothing for herself and takes on the burden of her father's will while having a pretty bland relationship with said father. Like I said, the final confrontation robbed her of any catharsis she could have had for herself by having Krennic's final appearance resolved by someone else randomly shooting him from where he didn't see it coming (like in the beginning of the movie, funny enough), when it should have been Jyn who resolved that herself. Krennic is the man who is the epicenter of her ruined life.
One counter argument to that was that Jyn's character arc wasn't about her getting revenge, so it wasn't needed. I disagree. After Cassian shoots Krennic, but before they leave, they have one final shot of Jyn looking at Krennic's body, making a rush to it out of pure rage, but Cassian grabs her and pulls her back, because the place was about to go down. And unfortunately, that's unintentionally symbolic of what the problem of Jyn is. This was a small slip of her trying to act on her own motivations: She hates the fucking bastard and wants to give his corpse a kick for good measure. The context of the base exploding means it's a good idea to leave, but after an entire film of her working on behalf of others, it's sad to see that the moment she tries to do something for herself, she has to be pulled back. The film only has her carry the burdens of others. First the Rebel Alliance, then her father. Because without them, she has no aspirations of her own and just wants to live one moment to the next, without a care of whose flag soars in the galactic sky. And this isn't an attitude that she actually drops either.
Because even after her dad dies to the bombing run, Jyn is still disillusioned and unsympathetic to the rebel alliance. After all, it was rebel bombers that actually killed her father and she points this out in an air of weary cynicism. And I feel this is notable, because Cassian never really justifies it to her, but she is still willing to work with the rebels even after that without any kind of grudge, like she understood that this was just the way the rebels operated, with indifference to the small people getting hurt like her, and there was no reason to take it personally, even though it was her fucking father. The one and only time she tries to appeal to the justice and goodness within the rebel alliance, it fails except for the select few that would join her later on.
So, that's the key thing here. This would be a completely different argument if Jyn, after a life of apathy, personally arrives at the conclusion that the Rebel Alliance's cause is worth fighting for, like her father and Saw Gerrera did. But there's little to indicate that that is the case. At best, she made some friends she trusts along the way. But her purpose of being at Scariff, her raison d'etre, is still exclusively to fulfill someone else's agenda...an agenda she doesn't seem to really believe it. She just feels obligated to fulfill it. She dies doing the work of someone else, who she loves, but doesn't seem to believe in.
It's still not a bad film. In fact, I think I like it more than I did the first time around. But I feel that Rey, if you'll pardon the pun, completely outshines her greatly as a character by having self motivating agency and thus is much less of an interesting character.
There are 3 main plot points of Jyn's story. Find Saw Gerera (and thus the hologram of her father), prove their existence to the rebel alliance, steal the plans.
The problem is in the second point. The movie first provides proof in the form of Galen's hologram, but that's lost in the fire of the death star. The crew then tries to retrieve Galen himself, but he dies. Finally, they go to the Rebel Alliance with what they have, and they don't move on it, which leads them to going "screw it" and attacking Scariff anyway.
The entire middle third/half of the movie is spent trying to authenticate a plot point that is tossed aside in the end anyway. As a result, in terms of pure plot, it feels like a lot of wasted time, as they keep trying to solve a problem in which 2 separate solutions have slipped through their fingers. This isn't an inherently unworkable problem, but they have to fill the space in which they do all this with meaningful character moments. Otherwise, the characters are just spinning their wheels in place.
And we indeed get a few for Jyn and Cassian, but not for the rest of the crew, which really needed those moments to be fleshed out. Where the film could have introduced and developed character arcs for these minor characters, they instead just focus on a plot problem that will ultimately be made irrelevant.
Now, the other big problem is Jyn. I said before that her motivation for doing what she did never felt like it was her own. This time, I paid attention to why she was doing what she was doing. She starts the film a prisoner under a false name, before being freed by the rebel alliance. They basically threaten her and give her an ultimatum: Help establish contact with Saw Gerera or we tell the Empire you're really Jyn Urso. Her motivation up until she actually meets Saw Gerera is pure self preservation and she openly states she has complete apathy over the galactic war. She is more or less completely self serving up to here.
Then she sees her father's message of love and affection for her, which breaks her down emotionally somewhat. At this point, Galen has literally defined the flaw in the death star as 'his revenge' and it is this that Jyn sticks to for the rest of the film. If the film hadn't been insistent on that terminology, I feel I would have less problem with Jyn's character arc, but even at the very end, she defines the plan to Krennic as her father's revenge. Not her own. I mean, given her contribution and sacrifice to the rebels getting the plans, this could have easily become 'their' revenge, but Jyn clearly states that she is merely acting out the will of her father.
So, I ask what I asked before: What does Jyn want for herself? I tried to pay attention to this aspect, but there's just very little to go on. And part of it is because her relationship with her dad, if sweet, isn't terribly compelling. He loves her, and she loves him, and that's pretty much all there is to say about it. Her father just keeps making saccharine speeches to his beloved 'star dust' while Jyn looks on longingly at the father who was taken away from her. And that's not inherently bad, but he didn't seem to have any actual desires or expectations of her, nor she from him, which could have added some layers to their loving relationship. Her acting out the will of her father could have worked if the relationship she had with him was interesting, but all we get is bland platitudes of fatherly love.
So we have a character who wants nothing for herself and takes on the burden of her father's will while having a pretty bland relationship with said father. Like I said, the final confrontation robbed her of any catharsis she could have had for herself by having Krennic's final appearance resolved by someone else randomly shooting him from where he didn't see it coming (like in the beginning of the movie, funny enough), when it should have been Jyn who resolved that herself. Krennic is the man who is the epicenter of her ruined life.
One counter argument to that was that Jyn's character arc wasn't about her getting revenge, so it wasn't needed. I disagree. After Cassian shoots Krennic, but before they leave, they have one final shot of Jyn looking at Krennic's body, making a rush to it out of pure rage, but Cassian grabs her and pulls her back, because the place was about to go down. And unfortunately, that's unintentionally symbolic of what the problem of Jyn is. This was a small slip of her trying to act on her own motivations: She hates the fucking bastard and wants to give his corpse a kick for good measure. The context of the base exploding means it's a good idea to leave, but after an entire film of her working on behalf of others, it's sad to see that the moment she tries to do something for herself, she has to be pulled back. The film only has her carry the burdens of others. First the Rebel Alliance, then her father. Because without them, she has no aspirations of her own and just wants to live one moment to the next, without a care of whose flag soars in the galactic sky. And this isn't an attitude that she actually drops either.
Because even after her dad dies to the bombing run, Jyn is still disillusioned and unsympathetic to the rebel alliance. After all, it was rebel bombers that actually killed her father and she points this out in an air of weary cynicism. And I feel this is notable, because Cassian never really justifies it to her, but she is still willing to work with the rebels even after that without any kind of grudge, like she understood that this was just the way the rebels operated, with indifference to the small people getting hurt like her, and there was no reason to take it personally, even though it was her fucking father. The one and only time she tries to appeal to the justice and goodness within the rebel alliance, it fails except for the select few that would join her later on.
So, that's the key thing here. This would be a completely different argument if Jyn, after a life of apathy, personally arrives at the conclusion that the Rebel Alliance's cause is worth fighting for, like her father and Saw Gerrera did. But there's little to indicate that that is the case. At best, she made some friends she trusts along the way. But her purpose of being at Scariff, her raison d'etre, is still exclusively to fulfill someone else's agenda...an agenda she doesn't seem to really believe it. She just feels obligated to fulfill it. She dies doing the work of someone else, who she loves, but doesn't seem to believe in.
It's still not a bad film. In fact, I think I like it more than I did the first time around. But I feel that Rey, if you'll pardon the pun, completely outshines her greatly as a character by having self motivating agency and thus is much less of an interesting character.
autumnleaf
Member
He's obviously refering to Vader in the suit and his fighting style. In the suit Vader likely can't physically do the flips even if he wanted to, he's got robotic limbs and his body is on life-support, he has to be more conservative than the Anakin we see fight.
I agree. Bringing Jimmy Smits back as Bail and having Vader's castle on Mustafar were nice touches I thought.
He's more machine now than man. Twisted, and evil.
CadetMahoney
Member
Everything about it was better than TFA for me.
I wonder what the direction was for this sequence...
Clearly the action staging looks so precise and intentional...
"Faster. More intense"
This is sad but sadder still is how it is representative of the prequel's flaws on a larger scale in terms of story.
The Clone War is fought between droids and clones that are really no different than droids; everything feels dispensable. There's so much going on in the giant space battle over Coruscant that it's just random. Time is wasted on a mystery clone plot when it could have instead focused on the rise of the Empire and how Chancellor Palpatine was convincing the public that aggressive expansion for the military was necessary. Darth Maul has no prior history or any real personal conflict with Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi-Wan - as flashy as the duel looks, there's not much there in substance. Count Dooku has no prior history with Anakin, and they never even have a conversation. There's nothing personal between them. The fight between Anakin and Obi-Wan is the exception, kind of. I'm not saying these movies need to be entirely character driven, Rogue One was excellent, but there's not much real interaction between people in the prequels.
I watched ROTS immediately before going to see Rogue One and the difference was just stunning.
autumnleaf
Member
I just remembered the scene with the blind guy walking through all the blaster shots to get to the switch. I thought it was ridiculous but the friend I saw it with thought it was cool, what's the consensus here? I guess Stormtroopers really can't shoot straight. Should have just had him Force pull the switch or something.
The Force protected him, I thought it really fit in well with how the Force was treated in ANH, especially with how Luke was able to deflect the training droid while blind with the helmet, how Luke didn't use the targeting computer in the Death Star trench, and how Vader couldn't shoot down Luke because he was strong in the Force.
I watched it two days ago and left quite underwhelmed and a bit disappointed. The visuals, and actions scenes were pretty good and even the music by giacchano was good, but the most important part for me were the characters which they botched up.
I mean that the characters were pretty bland and everyone (maybe) except for Jyn had no characterization or even a (smooth) development. Why were Chirrut and Baze friends? I know they guarded the jedi temple but that's it. Or what was the point of getting an actor like Forest Whitaker if he's only in like 5 minutes playing a macguffin character to get the message from Galen Erso to her daughter, which brings me to Mads Mikkelsen who was wasted again after Doctor Strange. Instead of giving us so much unnecessary screen time with CG Tarkin, they could have spend the time more on the other main characters.
There were no characters that you could connect with, the only thing that is left is the action (and cool Darth Vader scene) but that's not Star Wars even if war is in it's title.
To me this movie, like it's timeline, falls between the Prequels and OT and below Force Awakens rating wise.
/E/: ps. regarding the reshoots, it was definitely apparent that somes stuff were changed as the overall flow of the movie isn't quite smooth and the transitions between scenes especially at the beginning felt a bit jarring.
I mean that the characters were pretty bland and everyone (maybe) except for Jyn had no characterization or even a (smooth) development. Why were Chirrut and Baze friends? I know they guarded the jedi temple but that's it. Or what was the point of getting an actor like Forest Whitaker if he's only in like 5 minutes playing a macguffin character to get the message from Galen Erso to her daughter, which brings me to Mads Mikkelsen who was wasted again after Doctor Strange. Instead of giving us so much unnecessary screen time with CG Tarkin, they could have spend the time more on the other main characters.
There were no characters that you could connect with, the only thing that is left is the action (and cool Darth Vader scene) but that's not Star Wars even if war is in it's title.
To me this movie, like it's timeline, falls between the Prequels and OT and below Force Awakens rating wise.
/E/: ps. regarding the reshoots, it was definitely apparent that somes stuff were changed as the overall flow of the movie isn't quite smooth and the transitions between scenes especially at the beginning felt a bit jarring.
Scrooge McDuck
Member
I thought that's the intention, but he's just walking slowly in a straight line, there. It really comes off like the Stormtroopers suddenly and inexplicably lose their ability to shoot.
autumnleaf
Member
Wouldn't the equivalent be all the training droid's shots miss Luke instead of him blocking them? And in the X-Wing Luke is making evasive maneuvers. The blind guy doesn't even have to dodge anything he walks really slowly in a straight line. I thought it was very clunky.
Yeah he should have dodged like in the first fight scene with him, where he actually dodges the blasters.
+ The part where Anakin breaks and slaughters the sand people was I thought pretty well done. Well the imperial march coming through was at least.come on guys, clones wasnt completely irredeemable.
The obi / fett stuff was cool.
and as previously mentioned the Coruscant chase was cool.
And the music was on point throughout.
That's what pushes it over TPM for me. TPM might be more competent on a movie basis, but it's totally uninteresting. AotC at least has stuff I care about.
The Force works in mysterious ways. The stormtroopers just couldn't hit him. Maybe they couldn't see him, or simply were missing, no matter how hard they tried, like hypnosis. The Force protected him.
Also, C-3P0 and R2-D2 just walk across a corridor of laser fire at the beginning of A New Hope.
autumnleaf
Member
Quickly in about 3 seconds, not a slow 20 second walk. And neither Rebels nor Stormtroopers would be aiming at some random droids. It's not compareable.
Of course it's not comparable, but it is a corridor they're shooting down. From two sides. And neither droid gets hit. It's meant to be a comedic thing, I think.
MarkMclovin
Member
Just believe in it.
Maybe it's hinting that the force is in everyone, but only certain people can tune into it, either slightly, or very deeply.
ThatCrazyGuy
Member
I just wanted to lump my general impressions into the thread.
I was on info blackout for the movie, so didn't know what to expect.
I generally enjoyed it, especially the last half. I wasn't expecting them all to die. I was sorta shocked, lol. First half was going all around, but I didn't really hate it.
The Vader scene was so damn good. I mean, gotdamn. Even if it wasn't "needed", it gave so much. They were so scared and terrified of him. In this moment, it felt the force users were this powerful myth come to life. It was just like a horror movie. It was damn great. So well done. The violence and the way he went on about it was spot on to me.
Part of me wished he would had went down to the surface somehow and did it down there though and did it to some of main characters.
I really liked K-2 and baze/imwe. Yen with his staff was pretty cool. I want more of it. Hope they get some martial artist talent in there when they amp up fights in future movies.
Some motivations and situations did make me eye roll, but not more than any other star wars movie.
This movie looked really good to me as well. Loved the locales, uniforms, the shots. I thought Tarkin looked great as well.
I still hate the way stormtroopers talk though....
I was on info blackout for the movie, so didn't know what to expect.
I generally enjoyed it, especially the last half. I wasn't expecting them all to die. I was sorta shocked, lol. First half was going all around, but I didn't really hate it.
The Vader scene was so damn good. I mean, gotdamn. Even if it wasn't "needed", it gave so much. They were so scared and terrified of him. In this moment, it felt the force users were this powerful myth come to life. It was just like a horror movie. It was damn great. So well done. The violence and the way he went on about it was spot on to me.
Part of me wished he would had went down to the surface somehow and did it down there though and did it to some of main characters.
I really liked K-2 and baze/imwe. Yen with his staff was pretty cool. I want more of it. Hope they get some martial artist talent in there when they amp up fights in future movies.
Some motivations and situations did make me eye roll, but not more than any other star wars movie.
This movie looked really good to me as well. Loved the locales, uniforms, the shots. I thought Tarkin looked great as well.
I still hate the way stormtroopers talk though....
DerZuhälter
Member
The Tarkin CGI was way more impressive than the Leia CGI, but overall it all falls apart as soon as it animates. Still think showing his reflection in the window would have been enough.
Saw this movie yesterday. I really liked it !
The beginning felt so fresh to me (different locales, the tone etc.).
The characters were serviceable, although there should have been a quiet scene between them.
Is it strange to say that Donnie Yen's character (Chirut ? ) was my favourite ?
Not only because he is a badass.
He reminded me of people being born in the wrong place at the wrong time. I kept thinking that a guy like him would be a formidable Jedi if he lived during the Prequels or one of the decorated rebels during the OT.
His last scene, (despite understanding that some people think not being hit because of the Force is too much) felt Star Wars-y. It was like the universe redeemed him for a shitshow of an unfair life.
The beginning felt so fresh to me (different locales, the tone etc.).
The characters were serviceable, although there should have been a quiet scene between them.
Is it strange to say that Donnie Yen's character (Chirut ? ) was my favourite ?
Not only because he is a badass.
He reminded me of people being born in the wrong place at the wrong time. I kept thinking that a guy like him would be a formidable Jedi if he lived during the Prequels or one of the decorated rebels during the OT.
His last scene, (despite understanding that some people think not being hit because of the Force is too much) felt Star Wars-y. It was like the universe redeemed him for a shitshow of an unfair life.
DerZuhälter;227020104 said:
I agree the movie would have been better with less Tarkin but they didn't just want him to have a cameo, they wanted Tarkin to be an actual character in this film and he is. Unfortunately the only way they could do that was through some wobbly cg. But as a character I think Tarkin totally works in this. We see more of his ruthless nature and wrap up Krennic's story nicely.
Tomasoares
Member
This is the only thing I've liked about Clones:
Everything else is trash
Everything else is trash
If you want more of that you should try out the Darth Vader comic if you haven't already, especially the first arc. The first Vader arc is the best of the new SW comics imo, together with the Lando standalone.
That's what Vader, Obi and Yoda thought. But Luke refused to believe that and was proved right in the end.
No one noticed?
tauroxd
Member
Make up. perhaps? Probably it changed in the reshoots.
I didn't notice it... at least not something that was distracting like it was for you.
Obi wans seems like a really big idiot if he thinks that.
Haloid1177
Banned
You got a guy out there killing kids but yeah that kid from Tattoine I still totally think my bud is still in there somewhere. I dunno he seemed long gone to me.
come on guys, clones wasnt completely irredeemable.
The obi / fett stuff was cool.
and as previously mentioned the Coruscant chase was cool.
And the music was on point throughout.
Obi detective was glorious, and I'd say Obi Wan is better because of the Prequels. Ewan movie will be one of the biggest SW movies imo, so so good.
"So uncivilised" - Dat Obi truth bomb
autumnleaf
Member
Obi-Wan vs Acklay was great. I think that's one of the better Star Wars monsters actually.
Saw it yesterday, I really enjoyed it, especially the second half. The first was kind of confusing in its set-up and overly fast - I get that they wanted to move through the backstory and set up faster as all of these people are new characters, but idk. On a second viewing it might turn out better.
But that second half, oh my god. When they landed on the planet I got so fucking excited. The battle was absolutely epic. Had my mouth wide open when I realized they were going to kill off literally EVERYONE from the main cast of this movie. Then my mouth was left permanently open when Vader said "boarding party" and I realized what was going to happen. That ending was PERFECTION.
Seriously, the second half might be one of the best singular parts of Star Wars ever. Greatly paced and tense throughout, with a killer ending. Gonna watch it again on blu-ray to form a more holistic view of it.
But that second half, oh my god. When they landed on the planet I got so fucking excited. The battle was absolutely epic. Had my mouth wide open when I realized they were going to kill off literally EVERYONE from the main cast of this movie. Then my mouth was left permanently open when Vader said "boarding party" and I realized what was going to happen. That ending was PERFECTION.
Seriously, the second half might be one of the best singular parts of Star Wars ever. Greatly paced and tense throughout, with a killer ending. Gonna watch it again on blu-ray to form a more holistic view of it.
I thought he was supposed to look younger.
Hair is darker, less grey.
It was awesome. Chirrut was awesome in general. The whole idea of (maybe Force sensitive?) people who believe in the force and use it as a spiritual guide of sorts is interesting and hasn't been explored much in the movies.
He couldn't flip the switch because he's not a force user or Jedi. He's more like a reader, using his senses to 'see' the force flowing through everything.
This. Plus, why bother? He's fighting people so far beneath him it's not worth consideration.
eddievanclaylen
Member
I was half expecting the
to turn into
and start
near the end.
Edit: if the rebels only knew
!
Death Star
Mega Maid
sucking out planet Druidia's air
Edit: if the rebels only knew
the combination to the air shield
12345
Ether_Snake
å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®
Wow I had never seen this before:
A Bad Lip Reading of The Empire Strikes Back
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9t-slLl30E
A Bad Lip Reading of The Empire Strikes Back
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9t-slLl30E
That's...kind of amazing.
BigWeather
Member
That gif is great.
Monocle
Member
I prefer to think of it as a Marla-from-Fight-Club moment where these world weary droids couldn't give the slightest damn if they live or die.
They've been through way too much bullshit to worry about the tedious nuances of basic safety.
Reagan's BR
Banned
Edited after I listened to TFA soundtrack this morning. TFA is the better soundtrack as a whole.
Rey's Theme is pretty good as is Kylo Ren's (though the later is largely underused). Overall the soundtrack did not stick with me after I left the theater a year ago as it had for the previous six films.
I did however leave Rogue One with the Jyn theme stuck in my head. Perhaps Williams' soundtrack wasn't the issue; perhaps the movie just did not lend itself to recurring themes and use of leitmotif the same way the previous 6 did.
Either way, this theme has been stuck in my head since the movie. I like how it was used in several different ways throughout the film.
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