Scalebound cancelled [Platinum Games and Kamiya have commented]

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Net said:
Translation: I couldn't resist getting in a parting shot about how Platinum lack the talent and skill to put food on their tables, but I am leaving before I am banned.
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Seeing you transition from Junior Member to Member to Armchair Moderator in this thread has been the highlight of my morning.

Thank you.
 
duckroll said:
Excuse me, there's no ban threat. I'm merely offering you a contract, you can choose to agree to it like an adult, no one can be forced into a bad contract. I don't understand why you are trying to pretend to be a victim here. If you find yourself in a bad situation, it's your fault because you could have made a better argument instead or brought up an example that didn't lead you to this point. That's life. Right?
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Sure - but I haven't "namecalled" at any point in this topic. I thought that sort of thing was frowned upon here. You can think my position is ridiculous and call it such, but when personal attacks are made it just distracts from the debate.
 
Angel_DvA said:
...I think people forget that he was already there when Mattrick created the OG Xbox One...
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There's a lot from your post I agree with. This part though has been boosted by the sceptics since day one, but they seem to forget that Phil was also present before Kinect and Xbox One.

Before he became the studio head in 2008 he was the general manager of Microsoft Game Studios EMEA. So he "managed" projects like PGR, Fable, Crackdown, Viva Piñata, etc. Now I don't know how much he was responsible for, but I hoped he would bring back the glory days. At least we got Rare working on a new IP.

But seriously, I will remember Xbox One by tier 2, Lionhead's murder and broken promises.
 
duckroll said:
I don't really see it that way. I see the Monolithsoft purchase as Nintendo identifying value in bringing a developer familiar with larger scale console RPGs that their other studios aren't familiar with, to bring diversity to their content. That is exactly what the studio has done since.

Of course none of this means anything today with different management and very different market conditions. But I definitely don't agree that they bought Monolithsoft as a "favor" to Namco. That seems like a real stretch.
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Not what I meant. Monolith felt like much more if a strategic move than platinum does now. It made sense as you said, because they made games Nintendo doesn't want to make themselevs, and their relationship with namco allowed it to even happen. After all, namco wasn't konami level of dumpster fire back then so why would they let them go at all?

The same cannot be said of platinum who is in a much different place being independent and being freelance. If a saving throw comes, I think it will come down to personal relationships, because as others have pointed out, platinum owns nothing they worked on.
 
OldRoutes said:
They've also had the best selling console 3 months in a row last year with barely any exclusives showing up on the top 10 of NPD ; although it's quite the spin, maybe it just means that first-party titles from Microsoft just don't sell consoles anymore...
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Watch Dogs was a bigger system seller than any PS4 and Xbox One exclusive.
 
Pie and Beans said:
Ah. Kamiya lacks enough talent to continue making videogames and be able to feed himself through an adequate wage. Of course. Also sleeping in a sleeping bag in a meeting room to get more work in on an entertainment product is not "liking your job" enough.

Are you hoping the Shadow Masters are reading this drivel and won't come for you and yours when the Time Of Sacrifice arrives? That's the only reason I can imagine you'd be alright sharing such an alarming lack of empathy.



When you can feel the duckroll grin through the heat of the screen.
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The talent portion was in response to using the banal "get another job" part of that quote. Kamiya obviously has a huge amount of talent, and could get hired at (almost) any studio instantly if he wanted.
 
Mystic_Wanderer said:
Sure - but I haven't "namecalled" at any point in this topic. I thought that sort of thing was frowned upon here. You can think my position is ridiculous and call it such, but when personal attacks are made it just distracts from the debate.
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I think the main issue here is that people are appalled at your lack of empathy when you say things that suggest that if an independent developer has a bad contract with a major publisher and get in a position it's just "too bad". This is the sort of thing that if you really believe and think, it might be better to keep to yourself you know? Just social ethics. You don't go to a funeral for example and go "dude deserved it" and expect not to be punched in the face.
 
Mystic_Wanderer said:
Sways, sure. So if there was a quote from PG saying MS moved goalposts, different builds being shown, etc. AND a past history of doing this, that would be something credible. Just saying "they did it before that happened here" doesn't cut it for me.

Past instances of similar occurrences don't mean it happened here. I'm sure PG signed a broad and unfavorable contract, and either MS made it impossible to fulfill using the contract, or they just flat out cancelled it if it wasn't meeting their expectations.
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If pg had quotes there would be zero need to bring in past examples. The fact is in this industry we barely get those quotes so we have to follow and realize patterns when we see them. Plus you asked for an iota of evidence. That qualifies. To keep with your court room analogy if I present the fact that the defendant has been convicted of 3 murders in the past the judge/jury definitely accepts that as a reason the defendant probably did it this time too.

Just to clarify I'm not saying I believe anything just yet. Just clarifying why you're getting so much pushback. Plus your cold unrealistic views of how life works is putting ppl off. It taints the rest of your opinions with a hint of " this guy doesn't know anything about the world".
 
Mystic_Wanderer said:
Where did I say they signed a contract with strict deadlines? Once again, something I didn't say.
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You said that either the contract was always fair and it was P*'s fault for not delivering, or it was impossible from the start and it was P*'s fault for signing it:

Mystic_Wanderer said:
And MS making an impossible contract? Seems counterproductive, but still on PG for taking it. Don't wanna be forced to take contracts like that? Go 2nd party or make games that can sell.
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At no point did you ever concede that conditions and deadlines may have been changed later on. Which, by the way and for the third time, I request your iota of evidence for.
 
duckroll said:
Excuse me, there's no ban threat. I'm merely offering you a contract, you can choose to agree to it like an adult, no one can be forced into a bad contract. I don't understand why you are trying to pretend to be a victim here. If you find yourself in a bad situation, it's your fault because you could have made a better argument instead or brought up an example that didn't lead you to this point. That's life. Right?
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Oh my stars. duckroll will you marry me? :D

Mystic_Wanderer said:
Sure - but I haven't "namecalled" at any point in this topic.
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So? By your own admission, life's not supposed to be fair, is it? You, who are without empathy, now plead for it?
 
ElBoxyBrown said:
Watch Dogs was a bigger system seller than any PS4 and Xbox One exclusive.
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Dunkley said:
Same with Battlefield 1 and FIFA probably.
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Exactly. Well, to be fair, it doesn't make for an exciting showcase at E3 or during list wars, but if Microsoft has a healthy population with third-party games, is it really that bad?

When they say '#4theGamer', that's what it means.

In 2017, I expect to see Microsoft cutting a lot of deals with third-party publishers : exclusive content, "Better on Scorpio" and such... not really exciting for me, but I can understand that that might please and appease the Microsoft god.
 
GeordieMark said:
Whats the point in posts like this? We can speculate all day, but if you don't know what happened, you don't know. Pulling theories out of our arses isn't much use to anyone.

I get MS isn't particularly popular around here, but having been on both sides of situations like this I wouldn't like to assume who is at fault, if anyone. Making games is complicated, and there are numerous ways things can go wrong. The games industry is business, and in most cases, decisions like this come down to budget and cost. There doesn't have to be a good guy and a bad guy.
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Took the words right out of mouth! What happened to Platinum sucks, but MS seems to have made the decision to cancel the game cuz business is business.

By the way, you'll never know what truly happened if you're hoping for that unfortunately. Usually, parties involved in legal contracts like these are not allowed to talk about it openly. Finding trustworthy leak, speculating and discussing about it is all we can do really. So relax and have fun!
 
duckroll said:
I think the main issue here is that people are appalled at your lack of empathy when you say things that suggest that if an independent developer has a bad contract with a major publisher and get in a position it's just "too bad". This is the sort of thing that if you really believe and think, it might be better to keep to yourself you know? Just social ethics. You don't go to a funeral for example and go "dude deserved it" and expect not to be punched in the face.
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I don't think comparing the employment of a company and the death of a human is really an apt one, but I understand the point you're trying to make.

I just don't have a whole lot of sympathy for when someone signs a bad contract. It just creates a never-ending cycle where others have to do it just to keep afloat. If all independent studios refused to sign with MS due to their apparently abhorrent practices, it would certainly cause a shift in policy. But that's near impossible to do, which I also understand.

PG essentially want to remain independent. What the market has borne out is that really isn't feasible. I'm not sure of their financial situation, but if, as many posters are implying, they had to take this contract or risk folding (which is another point - if they weren't at this point, why take a bad contract?) perhaps being independent isn't the best route for them.
 
duckroll said:
Excuse me, there's no ban threat. I'm merely offering you a contract, you can choose to agree to it like an adult, no one can be forced into a bad contract. I don't understand why you are trying to pretend to be a victim here. If you find yourself in a bad situation, it's your fault because you could have made a better argument instead or brought up an example that didn't lead you to this point. That's life. Right?
Click to expand...

duckroll said:
I think the main issue here is that people are appalled at your lack of empathy when you say things that suggest that if an independent developer has a bad contract with a major publisher and get in a position it's just "too bad". This is the sort of thing that if you really believe and think, it might be better to keep to yourself you know? Just social ethics. You don't go to a funeral for example and go "dude deserved it" and expect not to be punched in the face.
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Never realized duckroll was this
amazingly
imposing. I thought only bish had that gift. :P
 
Mystic_Wanderer said:
The talent portion was in response to using the banal "get another job" part of that quote. Kamiya obviously has a huge amount of talent, and could get hired at (almost) any studio instantly if he wanted.
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You're probably not keenly aware just how much money has dropped out of the gaming industry in the last few years (particularly the Japanese lot) and that there are Limited Positions. Sony could have picked up Platinum had they not already 'had' to pick up Kojima Productions. Mikami scooped up those Bethesda dollars when he left Platinum. And so on. There are fewer publishers now.

"You can get a job anywhere!!" only works until you're confronted with the reality of "there are only so many jobs and one may not be available for another 2 years".

It's also what makes Microsoft money the worst to take. It's always opportunity cost and they're never in it for the long-term. The Gooch, Yukio Futatsugi, Kamiya... I feel bad for all of them. Legendary game directors, all told they're not good enough to invest in by a bunch of cunts.

Mystic_Wanderer said:
PG essentially want to remain independent. What the market has borne out is that really isn't feasible. I'm not sure of their financial situation, but if, as many posters are implying, they had to take this contract or risk folding (which is another point - if they weren't at this point, why take a bad contract?) perhaps being independent isn't the best route for them.
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This makes even less sense. If Platinum had been owned by Microsoft, they would now have been shitcanned and wouldn't be making videogames anymore. It just sounds like you've never been in a situation where you have to sign contracts to make money and keep 60+ people depending on you in work.
 
ElBoxyBrown said:
And now they're coasting on third-party which is why the One isn't dead.
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I didn't say X1 is dead, I said it's doomed

Xbox360 was ahead in the race when it started depending on third-party games

X1 is losing 2:1 and has close to zero exclusives (or literally 0 if you consider PC), so "survive" is all they can hope for at this point

Scorpio will be the last Xbox console, you can quote me on that
 
Angel_DvA said:
console exclusive isn't exclusive, exclusive means one platform.
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Nah things can be exclusive to multiple things. Ex this show is exclusively on Hulu and Netflix but amazon/crackle/etc won't have it.
Ex: this particular fast food item is available exclusively in only these 5 states.
Happens more often that you think.
 
OrbitalBeard said:
But what if it meant the studio gets to continue existing and creating their brand of unique software?

Not that I think there's a chance in hell Nintendo buys them.
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Some would rather have the company go under, if there was talk of a buyout from Nintendo. I personaly love the idea, and it would expand Nintendos portfolio.
 
2thepoint said:
Terrible news.

Bet Andrew House is on the phone to Kamiya - another Kojima situation where Playstation can benefit from good PR and an exclusive from Platinum.

Hopefully Sony comes in and gives the studio a boost.
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The only thing I want from platinum and Sony right now is an okami 2. That's it. Sony seems close to Capcom, so maybe they can make something happen.
 
breveglieri said:
I didn't say X1 is dead, I said it's doomed

Xbox360 was ahead in the race when it started depending on third-party games

X1 is losing 2:1 and has close to zero exclusives (or literally 0 if you consider PC), so "survive" is all they can hope for at this point

Scorpio will be the last Xbox console, you can quote me on that
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To be honest I don't think this industry can support another major console upgrade.
 
The consistent bashing of MS is funny. The game looked bad, co-op was tacked on and the main character wasn't likable. I have no idea why Platinum decided to make a multiplayer game instead of a good character action/adventure game.
 
2thepoint said:
It's obviously to help a studio in need.

It's fucking terrible in the sense that the man had to go on leave for his mental health.

Nier Automata looks great but is definitely niche and I'm hoping Sony goes in and strikes a deal for another title to give the studio a morale boost and keep them ticking over.

New IP again would be nice.
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If it was about the studio and not about your ideal platform surely the wish would be to have a publisher/platform holder give Platinum some work, not just Sony. It was Square Enix that collaborated with Platinum on Nier, not Sony, too.

LiquidSolid said:
It's as exclusive as Scalebound (and every upcoming Xbox game) was.
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That's like saying Sony is funding and marketing Tales of Berseria because it's on PlayStation and not Xbox. Big difference between having a game on your platform, and publishing the game.
 
Angel_DvA said:
console exclusive isn't exclusive, exclusive means one platform.
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Well it means it's exclusive to a specific console, and for someone who doesn't care much for gaming on PC it's probably a valid term.

Let's not get overly semantic, seriously, console exclusives are a thing, and will continue to be.

btw. I thought a good night's sleep would help, well it didn't, this cancellation still hurts. :/
 
E92 M3 said:
The consistent bashing of MS is funny. The game looked bad, co-op was tacked on and the main character wasn't likable. I have no idea why Platinum decided to make a multiplayer game instead of a good character action/adventure game.
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I could make a guess why they 'decided' to do that.
 
thunder_snail said:
Took the words right out of mouth! What happened to Platinum sucks, but MS seems to have made the decision to cancel the game cuz business is business.

By the way, you'll never know what truly happened if you're hoping for that unfortunately. Usually, parties involved in legal contracts like these are not allowed to talk about it openly. Finding trustworthy leak, speculating and discussing about it is all we can do really. So relax and have fun!
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I agree that business is business, but if the allegations of Microsoft moving goalposts, not paying employees, and putting Platinum employees through emotional distress are true, then it's unethical. There's evidence of Microsoft having a toxic first party environment and it's relevant to the entire industry.

Of course, no one will be attacking them at the Game Awards because they aren't an "acceptable" target like Konami is.
 
Mystic_Wanderer said:
Sways, sure. So if there was a quote from PG saying MS moved goalposts, different builds being shown, etc. AND a past history of doing this, that would be something credible. Just saying "they did it before that happened here" doesn't cut it for me.

Past instances of similar occurrences don't mean it happened here. I'm sure PG signed a broad and unfavorable contract, and either MS made it impossible to fulfill using the contract, or they just flat out cancelled it if it wasn't meeting their expectations.
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I assume most game devs contracts are hard to fulfill if there is no good faith on both sides, unless they are really carefully worded; if there is any subjective component to it, it is easy to reject a game as not hitting a milestone cause the publisher doesn't think the graphics or gameplay are up to snuff, simply cause how are you gonna measure that.

the publisher just says 'the game does not look good enough' and what's the developer gonna do
 
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