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[SomedayTheFire]

I disagree with her statement entirely. The gaming industry is a useful scapegoat. I don't know of any game in particular that is making anywhere near hundreds of millions, much less billions of dolalrs, where the explicit purpose of the game is to do as she suggests.

She's being a pretty big hypocrite here. She's tossing out accusations that can just as easily be associated with the Television and Movie industry. is she so eager to say the same about hollywood or the film industry in general? Maybe she did and I just didn't read it, but I'm focusing specifically on her making billions remark.

Fuck sake. This is a woman who has campaigned throughout the world with regards to the treatment of people, who has campaigned against genocide and conflict diamonds in countries driven by them.

Are you really so thin skinned and defensive? And yes she has spoken out about sexual harassment and other problems facing women in Hollywood.

 

[UnemployedVillain]

Sad but unsurprising to see that nearly all discussion in this thread is hung up on one single comment made in her speech and pure speculation around that comment. The speech was mostly about online interactions / harassment and how she is dealing with it. The comment everyone is discussing is being ripped out of this talk - both in this thread and on Polygon for their headline - and the speculation around it makes it look like the purpose of the talk was to attack specific ( types of ) videogames when that is not at all what the talk was about.

The OP also really needs a direct link to the video : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSf6nij-SdA

Probably because the vast majority of people don't disagree with her main point

 

[Armaros]

No it isn't. The point of the game is to create a fantasy for the player. You see similar things in other media for every gender and sexuality.

You've got romance novels, fanfiction, porn videos, visual novels and more that all attempt to cater to a person's sexual desires. And there is nothing inherently wrong with that.

You are completely and utterly wrong. Just apply this to race and racisim and you see how fast your point falls apart.

'the point is the fantasy for the user that X race is superior to all other races' I guess white supremacy magazines aren't really racist because they do it on purpose for their target demographic?

 

[Nerazar]

It's possible. Being a woman does not exclude you from being a misogynist. But I couldn't conclude that based on what I'm criticizing as she did not design the game, nor did she render the scenes people criticized, nor did she direct the voice acting for those scenes.

While I agree that women can be sexist towards everyone, including their own gender, I don't see the elements from the game as overly problematic. As the author, she was probably tasked with creating the story board and everything as a blueprint to work with later on and she was part of the team for the whole development process.

For example, I don't see the game's design as misogynist. It's an action game and your character can and probably will die a few times. Lara kills more than 100 men on her journey, many of them brutally, and people are focussing on the fail-state of the game whereas the win-state includes murdering her way through a lot of persons from the opposite gender. So if anything, the game is pretty anti-men.

And with the voice acting - I don't know how people sound in those moments. But I am also sure, like it was mentioned before, that the Creative Director was not pushing the voice actress to be more sexual during those scenes. Like the voice actor of Leon in my example was also not pushed to imagine climaxing while dying as a character. It's a perception thing, I guess.

 

[univbee]

but their intent wasn't driven by misogyny.

This is often a key point, actually, and one of the big problems with misogyny in general, in that aspects of it are prevalent and automatic/default to the point where even well-intentioned people will put out misogynistic products without realizing it. And the problem isn't so much that they exist, but that there is such a lack of products without being pretty seriously misogynistic in various ways.

 

[Rupe]

Last time I played Tomb Raider, I tried to avoid getting her maimed and killed - it's kind of the goal of the game to survive that experience and to grow stronger?

By the way: do you realize who actually wrote Tomb Raider? Is Rhianna Pratchett sexist?

Women can be sexist too, but no, she's not sexist, just a terrible writer.
Not the point though.
The problem with TR was never the story (altough it goes out of it's way to prove a point and does it badly). The biggest problem with the game in this context is the death scenes. They're extremely graphical and incredibly out of place. Take this example, Until Dawn has multiple characters, female included, being mangled and torn into pieces. Why does it work? Well the context is a slasher game/movie where the violence is expected and the tone fits. TR on the other hand is an adventure game about a girl trying to survive. TR has a really deep tonal problem. One minute she's jumping across a gap trying to run, the other she's impaled. It's jarring, unnecessary and does very little for the game. In my play-through it started to bothered me to the point I almost gave up on the game. That's not even mentioning the moaning, no, women in pain don't sound like that and that was a deliberate decision on the director's part.
As with everything, everyone has different levels of tolerance to violence and how it's used, that being said, I was taken by surprise in that particular game and I can see how other people would as well.

 

[Griss]

How is not sexist? DoAx3 consist on taking strong female characters and turn them into straight useless objects, These girls that can kick anyone ass and wall jump around? well, suddenly they're running around a beach in mini bikinis, while they're almost even incapable of even running straight, just so they can fall and you can focus on her body.

Oh, and you can peek while they're changing clothes, dont worry, they'll just be embarassed or a lil angry, nothing more. And of course they'll poledance for you. And let's not talk about the canned VR mode.

I like DOA5 but the Xtreme series is what is it. Atleast in DOA5 they're capable females.

I want to walk back my claim that the game isn't sexist. Your comment made me reassess things (always healthy!) and I realise I didn't think strongly enough about the game mechanics and therefore spoke in error.

I maintain that the concept of the game isn't sexist. It's a game to titillate straight males, and the narrative excuse is that the girls agree to go on a vacation - they are always enjoying themselves in this game and you're just along for the ride to watch. There's nothing wrong with that on a core level.

The gameplay issue I've realised I'd take issue with is
a) The concept of gifting a girl items to make her more likely to change into a swimsuit that the game itself states is 'hated'. That's blatantly exploitative and sexist. Had I been thinking of that mechanic at the time I wouldn't have said what I did.

Proof, as always, that people can change their minds in these threads.

I agree. As a gay guy, I often do the same with attractive men and there's nothing wrong with it either way. What's problematic is a) the imbalance of how much women tend to be portrayed in ways that invite sexualisation versus how much men tend to be portrayed in such ways and b) when people are only able to see other people (in this case especially women) as sexual objects regardless of the context. For example when a politician's form-fitting outfit becomes more important than the contents of their speech (again, sth that, in our current society, would mostly happen to a woman but the principle can theoretically apply to men, as well). There's nothing wrong with sexually objectifying someone, what's wrong is denying or dismissing someone as a person simply because one finds them sexually attractive. To some people, those may be one and the same thing (and to be fair, I'm not sure if I've done a great job explaining the difference but I don't really know how else to put it right now) but I don't think they are.

Exactly. As long as you don't prejudge or discriminate against someone based on their looks or whether or not you find them sexually attractive, I don't see an issue with just being attracted to their body (which is an object) from afar.

And you're right - I'm dealing with things on an individual level. The amount of sexual objectification in our society slants heavily towards women, and heavily is an understatement. This can lead girls to think that they're valued only for their sexual appeal, when the reality is that sexual appeal is just one of hundreds of ways a person can be valued.

 

[Lime]

I disagree with her statement entirely. The gaming industry is a useful scapegoat. I don't know of any game in particular that is making anywhere near hundreds of millions, much less billions of dolalrs, where the explicit purpose of the game is to do as she suggests.

She's being a pretty big hypocrite here. She's tossing out accusations that can just as easily be associated with the Television and Movie industry. is she so eager to say the same about hollywood or the film industry in general? Maybe she did and I just didn't read it, but I'm focusing specifically on her making billions remark.

Serious question: When you write this post, do you think about the fact that your toxic response is to a woman coming out and speaking about the sexism and harassment she experienced?

 

[ANDS]

its the usual MO for the community, people latch onto one small point about how its not perfectly worded, so the person speaking is completely wrong and 'insert excuses' means there isn't a real problem.

and people circle around that instead of the actual problem.

Except it's not a small point. She's chastising game developers for what she perceives as their insincerity regarding GG and the harassment associated with that group, by peddling a hyper exaggerated view of the industry at large.

 

[SomedayTheFire]

Except it's not a small point. She's chastising game developers for what she perceives as their insincerity regarding GG and the harassment associated with that group, by peddling a hyper exaggerated view of the industry at large.

I will repeat, GTA V is a deeply sexist game and one of the best selling games ever.

 

[Lime]

its the usual MO for the community, people latch onto one small point about how its not perfectly worded, so the person speaking is completely wrong and 'insert excuses' means there isn't a real problem.

and people circle around that instead of the actual problem.

Yep, so true. I wonder if gaming culture's sexism will ever go away.

 

[Armaros]

Except it's not a small point. She's chastising game developers for what she perceives as their insincerity regarding GG and the harassment associated with that group, by peddling a hyper exaggerated view of the industry at large.

You mean all the canned and really bad excuses peddled by people in this thread?

'its not sexist because its on purpose'

Yeah, sure, SHE is one that is wrong.

I will repeat, GTA V is a deeply sexist game and one of the best selling games ever.

Something that gets referenced to the point of becoming a pop culture reference with that game is having sex with a prostitute and then killing her for the money back.

 

[Nomadic Sparks]

She isn't wrong at all about the profiteering off misogyny and the sexist images,

You really don't at all have to look all that far for the violence against women thing either.

The video game industry (mainly AAA developers) have created an enviroment of hostility towards women and the people who buy the shitty sexist awful game have shown no willingness to change. Neoliberal slop begets neoliberal slop imo

You can point to points of progress in video games and I can show your where video games are still in age of adolescents in terms of violence and sexism still rule the day in video games.

And good luck getting the techbros like the founders of FB and Twitter to change their enviroments. Their loyalties lay only in the people who invest in social media expecting a garden of money trees.

Personally I've been off and occasionally on twitter for the since the elections and I deleted my FB because of the alt right memes that infest that place.

A pox on both platforms imo

 

[RoboticWater]

So because they didn't intend for it to be like that, its not a problem?

Crystal Dynamics were trying to add an element of horror to their game. Grotesque deaths are trope of that genre, so I think it's totally fine for a developer to use them no matter the case. When I said they didn't work very well, I meant that the deaths were just kinda stupid, and that they weren't tonally consistent with the action adventure bits (much in the same way that the narrative was), not that they were misogynist.

 

[SomedayTheFire]

Crystal Dynamics were trying to add an element of horror to their game. Grotesque deaths are trope of that genre, so I think it's totally fine for a developer to use them no matter the case. When I said they didn't work very well, I meant that the deaths were just kinda stupid, and that they weren't tonally consistent with the action adventure bits (much in the same way that the narrative was), not that they were misogynist.

Sexism and misogyny don't need intent to exist.

 

[chillybright]

What I gathered from reading this thread:

Blank statement is often more controversial than constructive. Better back up with specific examples when you make broad accusations.

 

[Shredderi]

Somewhere behind what she is saying lies a good point in general but she doesn't present her argument very well.

 

[Fat4all]

Blank statement is often more controversial than constructive. Better back up with specific examples when you make broad accusations.

Or it's just used as an excuse to not discuss the actual topic at hand.

 

[Lime]

You are completely and utterly wrong. Just apply this to race and racisim and you see how fast your point falls apart.

'the point is the fantasy for the user that X race is superior to all other races' I guess white supremacy magazines aren't really racist because they do it on purpose for their target demographic?

The 'free market' logic or whatever it is that people are employing to justify the cultural production of exclusionary or bigoted content is so weird. "racist/sexist shit sells a lot, therefore it's okay". It's perhaps the ultimate form of commodification or capitalism where all moral perspectives are over-riden by pure quantity of money earned. .

 

[meltingparappa]

Sexism and misogyny don't need intent to exist.

Are you -- with an admittedly huge shot in the dark - a heterosexual male, the objective arbiter of all that is unacceptable to women as a monolithic group, based solely on your feelings?

 

[Glitter and Gold]

Or it's just used as an excuse to not discuss the actual topic at hand.

and if it isn't there people will find something else

 

[Armaros]

Or it's just used as an excuse to not discuss the actual topic at hand.

Just like every other thread on women in gaming.

 

[SomedayTheFire]

What I gathered from reading this thread:

Blank statement is often more controversial than constructive. Better back up with specific examples when you make broad accusations.

Nah. It's just being used as a defence of people's preferred medium. It's a classic deflection tactic to avoid the actual issue at hand.

Are you -- with an admittedly huge shot in the dark - a heterosexual male, the objective arbiter of all that is unacceptable to women as a monolithic group, based solely on your feelings?

No I'm not. Cute post though. Do you want to explain to me how sexism, misogyny, or any other form of prejudice needs intrinsic intent to be harmful?

 

[bender]

Powerful intro and depressing as hell.

 

[Mr T.]

All I'm going to say is I now view her as a hypocrite.

 

[Ferr986]

I want to walk back my claim that the game isn't sexist. Your comment made me reassess things (always healthy!) and I realise I didn't think strongly enough about the game mechanics and therefore spoke in error.

I maintain that the concept of the game isn't sexist. It's a game to titillate straight males, and the narrative excuse is that the girls agree to go on a vacation - they are always enjoying themselves in this game and you're just along for the ride to watch. There's nothing wrong with that on a core level.

The gameplay issue I've realised I'd take issue with is
a) The concept of gifting a girl items to make her more likely to change into a swimsuit that the game itself states is 'hated'. That's blatantly exploitative and sexist. Had I been thinking of that mechanic at the time I wouldn't have said what I did.

Proof, as always, that people can change their minds in these threads.



Exactly. As long as you don't prejudge or discriminate against someone based on their looks or whether or not you find them sexually attractive, I don't see an issue with just being attracted to their body (which is an object) from afar.

And you're right - I'm dealing with things on an individual level. The amount of sexual objectification in our society slants heavily towards women, and heavily is an understatement. This can lead girls to think that they're valued only for their sexual appeal, when the reality is that sexual appeal is just one of hundreds of ways a person can be valued.

Funny thing is that I actually forgot about the gifts lol but yeah you're right.

That's why it's important to be able to discus these things (in a respectful and civil manner, of course). Sometimes we need to see outside of just our points of view, myself the first one of course!

 

[BibiMaghoo]

And yet, the positive broader themes were lost for you and perhaps others who became hung up on a single costume.

Femhype - Conversations from the Final Fantasy XV locker room

I agree with the author's point that Final Fantasy XV is head and shoulders above other AAA games at subverting the prevalence of toxic masculinity. The industry would be quite different if other games with a male ensemble cast followed their example.

That article completely ignores the difference in mundane things that occur because of the characters sexualised outfit. Refulling the car is the first and most obvious occasion of this. The camera is behind the window she is leaning onto washing. Customising the car lines the camera up with her ass zoomed close by default, purposefully because of her design. There is no broader theme that justifies the clear motivation of designing the game in that manner. It is laughable to suggest otherwise in my view. The game has strong women in terms of competence and design, but Cindy is appalling and far too obvious to excuse. It isn't subverting, it is pandering.

 

[meltingparappa]

To her point, if I knew nothing about games and someone sat me down with a youtube clip of all the Mortal Kombat fatalies to women and a GTA playthroughs by your typical edgelord streamer, then showed me how successful both series are, I would probably come to the same conclusion with the same passion.

Bonus points if I spent five seconds in twitch during a MOBA.

 

[Funyarinpa]

There's something I'm unclear on. If you're going to have female protagonists in all sorts of video games, then it only follows that some of them will be subjected to horrible treatment and death. If simply the portrayal of a woman being subjected to violence (e.g. the Mass Effect reporter getting punched) is sexist/ problematic and/or unacceptable to have in a game, then how do we tackle women in video games? Do we shield female characters from suffering violence? Do we just let female characters star in games that are not violent? Or do we do something else?

My point is this: Games are violent, especially mainstream ones. There's constant shooting, fighting, and killing in most AAA games. If shooting, fighting, hurting, killing, disgracing women in any situation (or if there isn't a male counterpart for it) is sexist, then female characters are rendered simply unsuitable to star in these games as they are. If people keep saying that (gendered) violence is unacceptable, then that makes it difficult to adapt female characters into the most common AAA game character archetypes. If punching the reporter in Mass Effect because the reporter is female is problematic for example, then how do you expect the average shooter to star a woman when these games so often have the main characters besten up/interrogated/ridiculed/wounded?

I think that it would help more if we had female characters starring in all sorts of games and living through all sorts of things, including problematic and distressing situations.

If GTA is problematic, it is not simply because it allows you to murder prostitutes and get your money back; it's because it's overall a franchise that features TONS of gratitutous murder. I don't think you can sensibly argue that GTA featuring murder of prostitutes is problematic while at the same time saying "Oh, feel free to champion hyperviolence otherwise, that's perfectly fine." I mean to say that arguments against all inhumane acts in games and arguments against inhumane acts towards women in games are analogous, you cannot have one without the other.

In games, there can be all sorts of violence against women without there being sexist undertones. IMO, reinforcing that there cannot be any violence against a woman solely because of their gender perpetuates a far more problematic stereotype (that women are all fragile beings, cannot withstand being beaten up or stuff that your average white male character often does etc. etc.).

Hell, even gendered violence is not problematic in sufficient context. And I feel that it's not something to complain about on its own in a game like GTA where you can murder practically any innocent person you come across. Complaining about the prostitutes in GTA while saying nothing about the rest of the hyperviolence the franchise is founded upon is hypocritical.

Regarding fanservice: If Dead Or Alive is sexist, so is pretty much all porn. And if enjoying porn for what it is is sexist, then being sexist is not too different from having a sexuality anyways.

 

[Guardian Monkey]

Ashley Judd doesn't like the video game industry because there are some fucked up things that happen in it. It may have seem as a general overstatement in which people are getting upset at. But there is misogyny in it and that is what she is against. Thats is.

 

[Zasa]

Yakuza 0 is pretty fucked lol. The cat fighting? I'm just at a loss for words when it comes to a lot of Japanese games.

Genuinely surprised this game hasn't been brought up yet. Some absurd shit in there, even for a Japanese game.

 

[4Tran]

its the usual MO for the community, people latch onto one small point about how its not perfectly worded, so the person speaking is completely wrong and 'insert excuses' means there isn't a real problem.

and people circle around that instead of the actual problem.

Yup. The gaming industry's reaction to Gamergate is distinctly different from how the science fiction community dealt with their version of the same. There, the publishers and lots of prominent writers made it quite clear that that kind of behavior was unacceptable and that the people acting like that would be repudiated at every opportunity.

Sexism and misogyny don't need intent to exist.

Indeed. And it's even more insidious when it's reinforced out of habit than out of malicious intent.

 

[Lime]

What I gathered from reading this thread:

Blank statement is often more controversial than constructive. Better back up with specific examples when you make broad accusations.

And when you come up with specific examples, you are "cherry-picking". This is seriously an often employed counter-argument against people who for example criticize the representation of women in games.

When you're rocking the boat, nothing is good ever enough for people who are fine with the status quo. There will always be another excuse for why you need to shut up - sometimes it's "historical accuracy", the next time it's "it's fantasy/not real, they don't have to conform to reality". Other times it's "make your own game", then it's "she shouldn't have made this game if she didn't want to get harassed". Other times it's "we need to get more women in games industry", the next time it's "if you don't like the harassment in games culture, that's just the way it is, you can just pick a different job" or "I don't see misogyny, therefore there isn't misogyny in the games industry".

 

[boiled goose]

I'm not sure I get the point she is making.

Do games as a medium have issues of representation and mysoginy? Definitely

Should platform holders do better moderation? Yes.

Gamergate is a whole other beast. It's not only mysoginy it's abuse.

Is the point that companies are hypocritical because they verbally condemn Gamergate but then don't do enough deliberately because they profit from the Gamergate demographics or content that promotes Gamergate?

Probably? Hypocrisy requires certain individuals making these deliberate choices though.

 

[Nerazar]

Women can be sexist too, but no, she's not sexist, just a terrible writer.
Not the point though.
The problem with TR was never the story (altough it goes out of it's way to prove a point and does it badly). The biggest problem with the game in this context is the death scenes. They're extremely graphical and incredibly out of place. Take this example, Until Dawn has multiple characters, female included, being mangled and torn into pieces. Why does it work? Well the context is a slasher game/movie where the violence is expected and the tone fits. TR on the other hand is an adventure game about a girl trying to survive. TR has a really deep tonal problem. One minute she's jumping across a gap trying to run, the other she's impaled. It's jarring, unnecessary and does very little for the game. In my play-through it started to bothered me to the point I almost gave up on the game. That's not even mentioning the moaning, no, women in pain don't sound like that and that was a deliberate decision on the director's part.
As with everything, everyone has different levels of tolerance to violence and how it's used, that being said, I was taken by surprise in that particular game and I can see how other people would as well.

I also had my issues with the depiction in those sequences so I agree with you - I don't crave overly graphic and violent deaths on-screen. However, given the context of the game and the setting, I still consider it to be OK since it's about surviving in a very hostile environment. Lara is not giving out jokes or comic relief in one scene and then dies horribly in the next one - the tone is pretty dark and gritty all the time.

As the sound designer, you would have to ask yourself the question of how to depict the scene. If you push it forward to sounds of a woman dying and gasping, it would break the tonality of a game even more. However, I just checked the Death Sequence video for TR and I must confess that my memory was bad on this one: I think most criticism resolves around that river scene where people probably died a lot (the impaling scene) - however, looking at all scenes, I don't see the push for more "sexual" death sounds since they don't use the same recording over and over again.

 

[Guardian Monkey]

I'm not sure I get the point she is making.

Do games as a medium have issues of representation and mysoginy? Definitely

Should platform holders do better moderation? Yes.

Gamergate is a whole other beast. It's not only mysoginy it's abuse.

Is the point that companies are hypocritical because they verbally condemn Gamergate but then don't do enough deliberately because they profit from the Gamergate demographics or content that promotes Gamergate?

Probably? Hypocrisy requires certain individuals making these deliberate choices though.

Sound like you do, I think too many people are overthinking it

 

[Xander Crews]

I swear I read the title as:

Ashley Judd calls out gaming industry in TEDtalk for hypocritical stance on Gamecube

...even after clicking on it and reading the first post. I was so confused as to why Ashley Judd was defending the Gamecube, but I was all for it and appreciated her support.

 

[Lime]

All I'm going to say is I now view her as a hypocrite.

Serious question: When you write this post, do you think about the fact that your toxic response is to a woman coming out and speaking about the sexism and harassment she experienced?

To her point, if I knew nothing about games and someone sat me down with a youtube clip of all the Mortal Kombat fatalies to women and a GTA playthroughs by your typical edgelord streamer, then showed me how successful both series are, I would probably come to the same conclusion with the same passion.

Bonus points if I spent five seconds in twitch during a MOBA.

Or if you are a woman in the games industry.

Or are you denying that there isn't anything sexist or racist or homophobic when it comes to the games industry and games culture at large?

 

[RoboticWater]

This is often a key point, actually, and one of the big problems with misogyny in general, in that aspects of it are prevalent and automatic/default to the point where even well-intentioned people will put out misogynistic products without realizing it.

But in the case of Tomb Raider, I don't think it's unintentionally misogynist. It's just unintentionally dumb. It's one thing to put out a game with scantily clothed women because a developer absentmindedly continued a misogynistic trope (that's bad), but another to have poor control over your tone and narrative design. In other words: I don't think it's fair to think that poor design = bad, but poor design + woman = misogyny.

And the problem isn't so much that they exist, but that there is such a lack of products without being pretty seriously misogynistic in various ways.

Wait, are you saying that most products are seriously misogynistic in various ways? Because I think that's a vast over-generalization. I think there are many (or at least, more than there should be) games that are somewhat misogynistic in some ways, but I don't think it's quite so rampant. It's a problem, certainly, but it won't help anyone being sensationalist like that.

 

[Shredderi]

Or it's just used as an excuse to not discuss the actual topic at hand.

He's got a point though. Ashley's point is valid and good, but if you want to have an actual, ACTUAL conversation, presenting her argument the way she does here is not ideal.

 

[Gentleman Jack]

Genuinely surprised this game hasn't been brought up yet. Some absurd shit in there, even for a Japanese game.

It only came out yesterday, most people need a day or two to digest and discuss its content.

 

[boiled goose]

Sound like you do, I think too many people are overthinking it

Ok. That's probably fair. It would be interesting if this deliberate decision making could be exposed.

For example Microsoft deciding to be loose on moderation of racism and harassment to avoid losing $.

 

[Nerazar]

Sexism and misogyny don't need intent to exist.

I would argue that the 'act' of sexism and misogyny would need intent. She's not calling out the system, she is pretty specific about who did wrong.

 

[Gnome Scat]

"games that maim and dump women for sport".

I can't think of any game that does this..

Romancing systems?

 

[ironmang]

The free market has to demand that before it happens. Right now, the gaming market is still primarily men so most games will be catered to that audience. Can't blame developers for doing what they feel ( and ultimately will ) sell more copies of their game.

I agree. I get tired of seeing developers blamed for the lack of female protagonists. They're worried about their livelihood and that of their coworkers/employees. There are plenty of good, solid games with female leads. Blame the consumers, specifically the ones who want more of them, for not speaking with their money and buying those games.

Not sure how they'd fix the harassment in game. It's much easier to police it on twitter but it's even a much bigger problem over there. Would they need to hire people specifically to watch thousands of reported matches to find the harassers?

 

[univbee]

Wait, are you saying that most products are seriously misogynistic in various ways?

Depending on your definition of "seriously", yes, actually, at least as far as visual entertainment is concerned. The Bechdel test showcases the lack of even "functional" female roles in a surprisingly large portion of movies.

 

[Nomadic Sparks]

Somewhere behind what she is saying lies a good point in general but she doesn't present her argument very well.

The presentation of her argument is worth bring up because you still need proof that she's arguing in good faith??

It really doesn't what the presentation of her argument is, most nerd lack the critical thought that supposedly smart people have.

Having a bit of critical thought about two clashing realities of half of all gamers being women and that the gaming industry having breed the monster that is GG is really too much for most nerds.

 

[entremet]

Ashley Judd doesn't like the video game industry because there are some fucked up things that happen in it. It may have seem as a general overstatement in which people are getting upset at. But there is misogyny in it and that is what she is against. Thats is.

I mostly agree with Ashley Judd, but arguments are not without scrutiny, hence the contention on a specific point she made.

The problem is when any criticism of an argument is made and now the person making that claim is unsupportive of her gist. That's not the case.

I really don't like this path we're going down where nuance is dead. It's a cancer on mature discussion. Particulars of an arguments can be dissented without diminishing the intent.

 

[ViolentP]

This isn't a war on misogyny, it's a war on immaturity.

The presentation of her argument is worth bring up because you still need proof that she's arguing in good faith??

It really doesn't what the presentation of her argument is, most nerd lack the critical thought that supposedly smart people have.

Having a bit of critical thought about two clashing realities of half of all gamers being women and that the gaming industry having breed the monster that is GG is really too much for most nerds.

Even the truest points can be lost in bad delivery.

 

[Armaros]

I mostly agree with Ashley Judd, but arguments are not without scrutiny, hence the contention on a specific point she made.

The problem is when any criticism of an argument is made and now the person making that claim is unsupportive of her gist. That's not the case.

I really don't like this path we're going down where nuance is dead. Particulars of an arguments can be dissented without diminishing the intent.

You mean the 'nuance' being presented in this thread?