Support NeoGAF

[Magwik]

I don't understand the "she lost to DONALD TRUMP OF ALL PEOPLE" sentiment. We should be appalled by his candidacy by all conventional means, but Donald Trump's candidacy is by far from conventional.

He beat 17 GOP candidates and the overwhelming frontrunner Hillary Clinton. He has been an icon in American culture for decades and got 63 million votes. Not bad for a non-politician.

No I'm not praising Trump but we have to stop with this "Donald Trump = weak candidate" as much as we have to understand why people voted for him in order to move forward and beat him in 2020.


Should Hillary have beaten Trump? Yes. Does her loss to Trump prove she was a weak candidate? No, not inherently.

These same people will not offer anything as to what a "better campaign" is, and just complain to complain.

 

[Arrogant Bastard]

Have they found Sir Benjamin Ghazi yet? He must be hiding at © Mar-a-Lago™ ®.

On a more serious note, to all those saying that Biden would have had the same problems as Hillary, please stop. That notion is illogical at best.

Who gives a shit. If we could amend the constitution Obama could have beaten Trump. Please stop bringing up scenarios that weren't even in the realm of possible choices, much less outcomes. Especially in a thread about Clinton.

I don't understand the "she lost to DONALD TRUMP OF ALL PEOPLE" sentiment. We should be appalled by his candidacy by all conventional means, but Donald Trump's candidacy is by far from conventional.

He beat 17 GOP candidates and the overwhelming frontrunner Hillary Clinton. He has been an icon in American culture for decades and got 63 million votes. Not bad for a non-politician.

No I'm not praising Trump but we have to stop with this "Donald Trump = weak candidate" as much as we have to understand why people voted for him in order to move forward and beat him in 2020.


Should Hillary have beaten Trump? Yes. Does her loss to Trump prove she was a weak candidate? No, not inherently.

Quoting this for those who seemingly forget it. The motherfucker beat 16 exceptionally qualified GOP front runners, why is it such a shock that he beat Clinton.

 

[Arrogant Bastard]

Dbl

 

[kirblar]

Oh undeniably; one thing people should forget is that Clinton did very well in the south, at least comparatively. Her performance in Texas for instance is, IIRC, the best for a Democrat since Bill's first, I believe.

From a thread yesterday:

The data we're seeing is telling us that we were getting both Obama->Trump voters AND Romney->Clinton voters. (Hence Clinton overperforming like crazy in wealthier suburban districts which still re-elected GOP reps.) But they were not in the same places in the country, and that hurt badly w/ the EC margins.

This is actually very worth remembering.

Georgia's margin in 2016 was 5%. In 2012 it was 7%.
Arizona's was 3%. In 2012 it was 9%.
Texas's was 9%. In 2012 it was 16%.

Hillary made big increases in a bunch of states that were traditionally Republican. They just weren't quite enough to win them. Trump made smaller increases in several states that were traditionally Democratic, but they were just enough to win those.

Run the exact same election in 2024 and Hillary probably wins 350 EV just on demographic change.

Of course, that's why Trump voters are so focused on targeting people of color, denying them services, and persecuting them with the legal system. To slow down or reverse demographic changes, and keep America a country for white people. It's not stupid at all. It's perfectly logical.

This part of the story is really important, alongside the 22-23 sunbelt GOP house districts that Clinton won.

 

[TestOfTide]

Have they found Sir Benjamin Ghazi yet? He must be hiding at © Mar-a-Lago™ ®.

On a more serious note, to all those saying that Biden would have had the same problems as Hillary, please stop. That notion is illogical at best.

Biden would have faced the same "neoliberal shill" criticism from the left that Hillary got.

And instead of attacking Hillary for her husband's actions. Biden would get attacked for his OWN creepy behavior.

And Biden would have an even worse time getting young minority turnout than Hillary did.

 

[BackLogJoe]

This is the first interview Hillary has given since the election over 6 months ago.

It is incredibly unrealistic, unfair to the millions of people who proudly voted for her, and not to mention incredibly petty to think that she should just go away. People want to hear from her. Her supporters want to hear from her.

By that same argument, you-know-who should also begone.

I want to hear from her. About current events. Im bummed she lost but as you said, it was 6 months ago. Time to stop talking about the election unless its the FBI talking about their investigation.

 

[Prof. Bathtub]

Quoting this for those who seemingly forget it. The motherfucker beat 16 exceptionally qualified GOP front runners, why is it such a shock that he beat Clinton.

Because he was a terrible candidate, an idiotic monster and ridiculously easy to beat, but at the same time down-on-their-luck voters had perfectly valid reasons for choosing him over the unexciting establishment Dem, and they should not be insulted.

I know that often it's different people saying each thing, but I'm sure some hold both to be true.

 

[TestOfTide]

From a thread yesterday:


This part of the story is really important, alongside the 22-23 sunbelt GOP house districts that Clinton won.

Absolutely. And I know some of these Romney Hillary voters and I can safely say they would NOT have voted for Bernie.

Also, you all need to remember that had Bernie become the nominee, we might have seen Michael Bloomberg run for POTUS and suck up a lot of those Romney/Hillary voters.

 

[Arrogant Bastard]

Because he was a terrible candidate, an idiotic monster and ridiculously easy to beat, but at the same time down-on-their-luck voters had perfectly valid reasons for choosing him over the unexciting establishment Dem, and they should not be insulted.

I know that often it's different people saying each thing, but I'm sure some hold both to be true.

He was such a terrible candidate and idiotic monster so ridiculously easy to beat but he fucking crushed 16 people running against him. Think about that.

Jeb Bush, Ted Cruz, Marco Rubio, Mike Huckabee, Rand Paul, John Kasich, Rick Perry, etc. etc. etc.

 

[stephen08]

Sure there might have been a candidate that caused more democratic support but I don't see any candidate that would make things a blowout. Trump had a lot of support. All these people saw the racism, sexism, the boasting about how he'd fix everything with no actual policy put forth, then lack of transparency with the taxes, the nepotism, the flat out fucking lying, etc. They saw all of that and thought 'ya this is the guy'.

He could've been beaten with a few tweaks sure, but he was going to have a lot of support regardless. Thats the real problem moreso than Hillary maybe not having more appeal. If she had we'd have her, sure, but all those other people don't just go away.

 

[Psychoward]

Because he was a terrible candidate, an idiotic monster and ridiculously easy to beat, but at the same time down-on-their-luck voters had perfectly valid reasons for choosing him over the unexciting establishment Dem, and they should not be insulted.

I know that often it's different people saying each thing, but I'm sure some hold both to be true.

Nope. The most valid reason one can give is that they were shockingly ignorant.

 

[Kin5290]

This is the first interview Hillary has given since the election over 6 months ago.

It is incredibly unrealistic, unfair to the millions of people who proudly voted for her, and not to mention incredibly petty to think that she should just go away. People want to hear from her. Her supporters want to hear from her.

By that same argument, you-know-who should also begone.

But, don't you see? He lost the primary by three million votes to an apparently garbage candidate. Surely that entitles him to play a leadership role in the party going forward!

 

[Prof. Bathtub]

He was such a terrible candidate and idiotic monster so ridiculously easy to beat but he fucking crushed 16 people running against him. Think about that.

To be fair, a lot of people saw the entire crowd of R candidates as varying flavors of incompetent, and were actively cheering that a rude guy like Don was embarrassing them. Not very funny now, but it still doesn't explain why this weak version of Trump easily beat all but Cruz (and physical revulsion to that guy transcends party.)

Spoiler

Rubiobot is the one of the only things about the election cycle that is still funny.

 

[RustyNails]

So folks saying why Hillary lost Rust Belt, Senate Intel Co-Chair Mark Warner:

Mr Warner said: “We know about the hacking, and selective leaks, but what really concerns me as a former tech guy is at least some reports – and we’ve got to get to the bottom of this – that there were upwards of a thousand internet trolls working out of a facility in Russia, in effect taking over a series of computers which are then called botnets, that can then generate news down to specific areas.

“It’s been reported to me, and we’ve got to find this out, whether they were able to affect specific areas in Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania, where you would not have been receiving off of whoever your vendor might have been, Trump versus Clinton, during the waning days of the election, but instead, ‘Clinton is sick’, or ‘Clinton is taking money from whoever for some source’ … fake news.

“An outside foreign adversary effectively sought to hi-jack the most critical democratic process, the election of a President, and in that process, decided to favour one candidate over another.”

The key states of Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania which Mr Warner named all fell narrowly - and unexpectedly - to Donald Trump.

 

[The Technomancer]

Were there calls for Al Gore and John Kerry to go away or "take responsibility" for their loss?

 

[Taiser]

she's awfully nonspecific about the: " you know, the challenges, the problems, the, you know, shortfalls that we had.".

the whole thing sounds more like a refurbished version of the - she's not perfect/she made "some" mistakes, BUT racism, sexism, comey, russia, wiki etc. excuse.

 

[Arrogant Bastard]

To be fair, a lot of people saw the entire crowd of R candidates as varying flavors of incompetent, and were actively cheering that a rude guy like Don was embarrassing them. Not very funny now, but it still doesn't explain why this weak version of Trump easily beat all but Cruz (and physical revulsion to that guy transcends party.)

Spoiler

Rubiobot is the one of the only things about the election cycle that is still funny.

Because, like it or not, admit it or not; a solid section of the Republican party voters are as Hillary said a bucket of deplorable's. I know people don't like it, I get it, but it is damned true. That comment was basically a non PC way of what Obama said, they cling to their guns and religion. Let us not kid ourselves, he was referring to the exact same subset of the American population.

Trump didn't couch his wording in PC jargon, he went in and said what that subset of the Republican party felt. I say this as a member of a damned large Republican family in TX talk about at family gatherings. I have hardly spoken to my parents or my family since election night. They love Trump, love him and they voted for Obama in 08.

she's awfully nonspecific about the: " you know, the challenges, the problems, the, you know, shortfalls that we had.".

the whole thing sounds more like a refurbished version of the - she's not perfect/she made "some" mistakes, BUT racism, sexism, comey, russia, wiki etc. excuse.

You act like this is the first time she has commented on her flaws as a candidate. It was; racism, sexism, Comey, Russia, and wikileaks that ultimately in the last 2-3 weeks that cost her the slim win. The other shit was baked into the cake long long ago.

But go ahead, lay it out for me.

 

[InstigateAndInquire]

Because he was a terrible candidate, an idiotic monster and ridiculously easy to beat

Is this a data-driven hypothesis?

Trump's reelection I think will hinge on his continuing incompetency in the WH, not whatever perceived-as-evil shit we imagined him doing.

 

[Chuck Norris]

It probably didn't affect those who were going Trump but it certainly would have affected those on the fence from even voting

 

[Laughing Banana]

You people on the "good side" really do like fighting each other, huh.

 

[Meowster]

If there is one good thing to hope for from Hillary losing the electoral vote and Presidency, I hope that all of the places she invested in and the raised margins she brought up keep trending that way in the future.

 

[ahoyhoy]

She ain't wrong even if she made mistakes in the campaign.

All that needs to be said.

She probably would have won had it not been for Comey, but she also probably would have won had she paid more attention to the Rust Belt or Russia not gotten so heavily involved or had she not done Goldman Sachs speeches or a whole bunch of other stuff. With such a tight race it's easy to pick and chose individual things

 

[DontBeThatGuy]

If there is one good thing to hope for from Hillary losing the electoral vote and Presidency, I hope that all of the places she invested in and the raised margins she brought up keep trending that way in the future.

it probably will during re-election, but I dunno about after that with a different republican candidate. (depends on the level of disgust)

 

[Psychoward]

You people on the "good side" really do like fighting each other, huh.

I love how the good side is in quotes as if there's any merit to the modern GOP and any doubt that the Dems aren't overall the good side in America right now.

 

[Sinfamy]

Those same reliable numbers that have her a 98% chance of winning on election day right?
Give me a break.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

I love how the good side is in quotes as if there's any merit to the modern GOP and any doubt that the Dems aren't overall the good side in America right now.

More important to be above everyone else for that punchy drive-by tho

 

[Psychoward]

Those same reliable numbers that have her a 98% chance of winning on election day right?
Give me a break.

There was no poll that had her anywhere close to 98%, ever.

 

[Sinfamy]

There was no poll that had her anywhere close to 98%, ever.

 

[Arrogant Bastard]

Those same reliable numbers that have her a 98% chance of winning on election day right?
Give me a break.

So, you deny that she was on the pathway to winning if not for Comey/Russia?

 

[Vincent Alexander]

I love how the good side is in quotes as if there's any merit to the modern GOP and any doubt that the Dems aren't overall the good side in America right now.

Putting "good side" in quotes amuses me greatly, as if they recognize the GOP is in fact a bunch of evil shit stains.

OK...not to be that guy, but I'm allowed to be since I didn't ask to see these numbers originally. Did anyone come up with this number more than 24-48 hours before election?

 

[King Tubby]

Quoting this for those who seemingly forget it. The motherfucker beat 16 exceptionally qualified GOP front runners, why is it such a shock that he beat Clinton.

The GOP primary candidates were a complete fucking mess. Exceptionally qualified? They were a total dumpster fire. That's a huge part of why he was even able to win.

That's not a poll.

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

As I said in PoliGAF, Trump getting elected, being too incompetent to do much of anything lasting, and being beaten in a wave election with a recapture of at least one house of Congress in 2020 may end up being a better outcome than Hillary barely winning and getting nothing done for 4 years due to Repub obstructionism, then losing because she "didn't do anything".

 

[polyh3dron]

"Total lack of political experience and knowledge" doesn't mean "anti-establishment"

Again, perception is reality. Trump was the anti-establishment candidate and he had the best chance against a dem candidate who could be portrayed as the most establishment candidate ever.

It didn't help much when Hillary's retort to being called an establishment candidate was that she couldn't possibly be part of the establishment because she's a WOMAN (emphasis hers).

 

[Cranster]

You seem to forget the rigging that definitely happened. no worries, they'll let you know.

What rigging? There was none, but keep bringing up the right wing propaganda.

 

[Broank]

I mean that is obvious. It was a lot of unclear misleading info dominating TV and all the newspapers like the day before early voting in a lot of states with a week of limbo. Then the clear up was just a footnote a week later. Shifted probably a couple percentage points that made a huge difference.

 

[XT Vengeance]

I mean, it is good that she is accepting responsibility, but i really hope that she just stays out of the forefront of politics.

 

[Madness]

Were there calls for Al Gore and John Kerry to go away or "take responsibility" for their loss?

Yeah there were and they did. Also Kerry and McCain still held public office as Senators. Gore disappeared and only returned in the limelight with regards to his television network or global warming and his documentary. Hillary lost an almost sure shot Presidency. Donald Trump is historically unlikeable for the right reasons. Hillary being so unlikeable should tell you something too.

Hillary and her daughter keep injecting themselves into a political climate in which they aren't really wanted. Yes Bernie Sanders should bug off too, but he is still a Senator. Look Hillary was the better candidate, she won the popular vote, people want to hear from her, I get it. But it is over. Going on television and saying I should have won were it not for X, Y, Z ignores she lost because of herself first and foremost. That a white woman and potentially the first woman President of the US lost the overall white woman vote to a grab em by the pussy President, who long complained of candidates looks and appearances, had several sexual assault allegations tells you everything.

 

[Vincent Alexander]

Again, perception is reality. Trump was the anti-establishment candidate and he had the best chance against a dem candidate who could be portrayed as the most establishment candidate ever.

It didn't help much when Hillary's retort to being called an establishment candidate was that she couldn't possibly be part of the establishment because she's a WOMAN (emphasis hers).

What is crazy is that they both could be argued as being establishment AND anti-establishment. I wish I could wrap my head around how one beat out the other, but I guess that mostly comes down to the media and what they fed to people. Or fake Facebook news.

 

[Arrogant Bastard]

The GOP primary candidates were a complete fucking mess. Exceptionally qualified? They were a total dumpster fire. That's a huge part of why he was even able to win.

Republican Primary:
Jeb Bush
Marco Rubio
Ted Cruz
John Kasich

These candidates are a total dumpster fire. They will be running again in a few years, and will more than likely get the nod. Well maybe not Jeb. Ted will sure as shit run again.

What are we on?

Who the fuck is Bernie Sanders and Martin O'Malley, compared to Hillary Clinton.

 

[Not]

It didn't help much when Hillary's retort to being called an establishment candidate was that she couldn't possibly be part of the establishment because she's a WOMAN (emphasis hers).

On a symbolic level, she's right.

 

[Psychoward]

That's uh, not a poll?

More important to be above everyone else for that punchy drive-by tho

It's additionally funny because there's a thread on the front page right now that highlights the rift between the Republican voters (Soros/Kushner thread). People also seem quick to forget the entire election season where there was a huge fight of Trump vs. the traditional GOP and the only reason it stopped is because he won. If Trump lost there would be less Dem infighting right now and more Republican infighting. That's how losing works.

 

[Meowster]

Yeah there were and they did. Also Kerry and McCain still held public office as Senators. Gore disappeared and only returned in the limelight with regards to his television network or global warming and his documentary. Hillary lost an almost sure shot Presidency. Donald Trump is historically unlikeable for the right reasons. Hillary being so unlikeable should tell you something too.

Hillary and her daughter keep injecting themselves into a political climate in which they aren't really wanted. Yes Bernie Sanders should bug off too, but he is still a Senator. Look Hillary was the better candidate, she won the popular vote, people want to hear from her, I get it. But it is over. Going on television and saying I should have won were it not for X, Y, Z ignores she lost because of herself first and foremost. That a white woman and potentially the first woman President of the US lost the overall white woman vote to a grab em by the pussy President, who long complained of candidates looks and appearances, had several sexual assault allegations tells you everything.

What does Chelsea Clinton have to do with anything lol? I haven't heard anything from her since the election.

 

[jchap]

She owns the most humiliating political loss of all time. That's a hard L to live with.

 

[Vincent Alexander]

She owns the most humiliating political loss of all time. That's a hard L to live with.

Agreed. As an American, I feel embarrassed on an almost daily basis that we have Trump as President. A pang of guilty and humiliation, if you would (not even exaggerating a little bit). So I can't imagine what it feels like to be Hilary. Shit must be crushing.

 

[NoRéN]

Were there calls for Al Gore and John Kerry to go away or "take responsibility" for their loss?

Hmm...I wonder what the difference between them kind Hillary Clinton is.

 

[NewFresh]

She owns the most humiliating political loss of all time. That's a hard L to live with.

We all got that L, Man....we all got that L.

 

[Psychoward]

Yeah there were and they did. Also Kerry and McCain still held public office as Senators. Gore disappeared and only returned in the limelight with regards to his television network or global warming and his documentary. Hillary lost an almost sure shot Presidency. Donald Trump is historically unlikeable for the right reasons. Hillary being so unlikeable should tell you something too.

Hillary and her daughter keep injecting themselves into a political climate in which they aren't really wanted. Yes Bernie Sanders should bug off too, but he is still a Senator. Look Hillary was the better candidate, she won the popular vote, people want to hear from her, I get it. But it is over. Going on television and saying I should have won were it not for X, Y, Z ignores she lost because of herself first and foremost. That a white woman and potentially the first woman President of the US lost the overall white woman vote to a grab em by the pussy President, who long complained of candidates looks and appearances, had several sexual assault allegations tells you everything.

Yeah it tells me a lot of America is shitty lol, this is also her first interview since she lost, she's hardly dominating the airwaves or anything.

Also I don't remember the calls for Gore and Kerry to bug off from their own party, especially since Gore went on to become a huge climate change activist and Kerry went on to become Secretary of State for several years.

 

[Arrogant Bastard]

Hmm...I wonder what the difference between them kind Hillary Clinton is.

Emails! Benjamin Ghazi! Penis!?

Why again was she such a horrible candidate?

 

[Adam_Vania]

What is crazy is that they both could be argued as being establishment AND anti-establishment.

maybe if Trump was also married to someone who was the president for 8 years

 

[King Tubby]

Republican Primary:
Jeb Bush
Marco Rubio
Ted Cruz
John Kasich

These candidates are a total dumpster fire. They will be running again in a few years, and will more than likely get the nod. Well maybe not Jeb.

What are we on?

Who the fuck is Bernie Sanders and Martin O'Malley, compared to Hillary Clinton.

Jeb Bush has so little charisma he made Mitt Romney look like Barack Obama. He was an easily dispatched default option.

Marco Rubio likely had the best shot but he completely fucking imploded when he repeated the same talking point over and over on a nationally televised debate.

Ted Cruz somehow managed to be less likeable than everyone else on the floor without even opening his mouth.

John Kasich? Are you kidding me?

And yeah, who the fuck is Bernie Sanders compared to Hillary Clinton? The fact that a self-described socialist Jew was able to give her such a fight during the primaries was a big red flag for how little she excited large portions of the Democrat base.